Where was Daenerys' House with the Red Door? -- Not Braavos!

[ChillyPolly]

It really isn't. The Sea Lord just has an extensive orangery, where the citrus trees are stored when the weather is bad. When the season is favourable, the boxes with citrus trees are rolled out. Orangeries were invented in the Italian city states, on which George has modelled the Free Cities. We know they have clear glass to built greenhouses, and the Sea Lord is more than wealthy enough to pay for such extravagance.

This is really strained. No canon source says that the Sealord has an orangery, only that "the mighty" have trees. The Italian City States were much further south than Braavos. Indoor "orangeries" come from the post-medieval/renaissance era - they are a modern invention, with truly greenhouses truly effective in more northerly-regions coming in the 19th century. In the pre-modern period glass was too expensive. And if they were guests of the Sealord, why did the Sealord's servants suddenly start misbehaving after Darry died?

[Equilibrium]

That is a pair of really good observations.

IIRC tree was in front of the door, not in some greenhouse.

In my opinion Braavos is too north for lemon trees to grow but maybe I am wrong.

I still like to think there will be something out of this whole lemon tree stuff, GRRM didn't put it there for no reason.

[Pod The Impaler]

Of course it was in Braavos, probably in the Sea Lord's palace. All these theories about lemon trees not being able to be cultivated in Braavos are bullshit. We know trees are grown in the courtyards of the mighty, and the Sea Lord is the ruler of Braavos, of course his palace will have expensive trees in it, probably kept in boxes like in Versailles. I'm sure Arya's chapters in tWoW (or season 5 you never know) will reveal that the Sea Lords palace has an orangery like the one in Versailles.

:agree: This is the "Occam's razor" explanation, certainly, but that is not going to stop people from imagining some fantastical scenarios.

Mayhaps the lemon tree was actually in Shelbyville, and Dany lived there.

[Equilibrium]

Occam would shit himself, it was said several times that there are no lemon trees in Braavos and zero times we have lemon trees in Braavos, do you really think the one with no backup in the text is more probable then the one with several.

[Dornish Vinegar]

I know it's ridiculous but CAN'T A BOY DREAM

[BearQueen87]

That is a pair of really good observations.

IIRC tree was in front of the door, not in some greenhouse.

In my opinion Braavos is too north for lemon trees to grow but maybe I am wrong.

I still like to think there will be something out of this whole lemon tree stuff, GRRM didn't put it there for no reason.

The lemon tree was outside Dany's bedroom window, not the door

Occam would shit himself, it was said several times that there are no lemon trees in Braavos and zero times we have lemon trees in Braavos, do you really think the one with no backup in the text is more probable then the one with several.

The text never once says there are no lemon trees in Braavos. It says that there are no tress, except for the trees at the palace of the Sealord

[Equilibrium]

Arya says she expected lemon trees in Free city but there is none.

Tree was outside, it is all that is important

Sealord can have trees, north of Norway has trees, but not the lemon ones.

[Julia Martell]

:agree: This is the "Occam's razor" explanation, certainly, but that is not going to stop people from imagining some fantastical scenarios.

Mayhaps the lemon tree was actually in Shelbyville, and Dany lived there.

:bowdown: :rofl:

Intertextuality! I love it.

[Archmaester Drew]

:bowdown: :rofl:

Intertextuality! I love it.

Bitextual...

Mayhaps the lemon tree was actually in Shelbyville, and Dany lived there.

Go Shelbyvillians!

;)

[BearQueen87]

Arya says she expected lemon trees in Free city but there is none.

Tree was outside, it is all that is important

Sealord can have trees, north of Norway has trees, but not the lemon ones.

Does Arya spend any time at the Sealord's house?

The Sealord can have lemon trees if he has some sort of enclosed arboretum. The tree is outside the window, does not mean that it's outside. It could be inside a "greenhouse"

[Julia Martell]

I thought we's decided /thread!

Ah, fuck it! Have fun guys, I'll be looking at Oberyn Martell fan art.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Occam would shit himself, it was said several times that there are no lemon trees in Braavos and zero times we have lemon trees in Braavos, do you really think the one with no backup in the text is more probable then the one with several.

You're using Occam wrong.

Where is more probable? That the Sealord of Braavos got a lemon tree in his backyard or that the Dany we know isn't Dany, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella but some girl raised somewhere else, switched at birth, and raised in some place because yadayadayada and where she actually lived there were lemontrees and more yadas.

When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses not zebras.

[Equilibrium]

No I was not talking about that theory, I was talking about Daenerys being Daenerys but house with the red door being somewhere else

[Archmaester Drew]

No I was not talking about that theory, I was talking about Daenerys being Daenerys but house with the red door being somewhere else

Likewise. :)

[ChillyPolly]

Where is more probable? That the Sealord of Braavos got a lemon tree in his backyard or that the Dany we know isn't Dany, the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella but some girl raised somewhere else, switched at birth, and raised in some place because yadayadayada and where she actually lived there were lemontrees and more yadas.

In this case, taking into account all the evidence, the latter. A large part of this is that this is a story, and not an attempt to analyze the evidence in the context of a real-life situation where the normal laws of probability apply. In real life, one does not expect the threads of the story to converge. In a story one does expect them to converge, if the story is well-written. In real life, there is no "Chekov's gun" rule. In stories, Checkov's gun must be taken into account, and when the author gives you a detail, you ask yourself "why is he telling me this?"

The House with the Red Door is a giant Checkov's Gun. It is reasonable to suspect we will see it again, and that when we do, we will discovery something surprising. This is not merely a random childhood memory, but a random childhood memory that the author saw fit to mention several times. This was the case even before people started noticing the "clue" (if that's what it is) about the lemon tree, which the author saw fit to mention at least twice.

Another Checkov's Gun: The statue of Lyanna in the crypts of Winterfell where her features are perfectly preserved. Gosh, why was that improbable detail invented and mentioned? When is that going to become relevant? Who, in this story, is going to turn out to look just like 15-year old Lyanna? And then it comes up again, when Renly asks Ned if Margaery resembles Lyanna. Well ... we can rule out Margaery then.

[ChillyPolly]

And nowhere is it stated that she only remembers the travels towards the end.. In fact, she only speaks about those from the beginning..

It doesn't need to be said. It is self evident that one will not remember most of what happens when one is very very young.

The servants had stolen what little money they had left, and kicked the children onto the streets. All the "wealth" Dany and Viserys had afterwards, came from stuff they had to sell, like Rhaella's crown.

In other words, they had wealth, just like I said. But lets cut through the nonsense. Here's a quote from the books: "The narrow sea was often stormy, and Dany had crossed it half a hundred times as a girl, running from one city to the next half a step ahead of the Usurpers hired knives."

Airplane and ship cannot be compared, now can they?

If a young child cannot remember the journey in any detail, which I know from personal experience that a young child might not, then it seems to me quite comparable.

Ships would usually stay within sight of the coast, I'd say

Which side? The narrow sea is narrow, and a ship might want to sail on either side of it, depending on where they wish to trade. Not to mention that she might also remember land on her right while crossing at the Stepstones.

Which will give you landmarks to see. And what is that one landmark by which Braavos can be so very easily identified that is so well-known in the world? Hmm.. a Titan, perhaps? ;)

Where in the books does it say that she saw the Titan from the House with the Red Door? Or in her memories of her very first sea journey? (Assuming she can remember it at all).

And Dany was 5 years old when Darry got sick. He died reasonably fast, probably in the year that followed, around which time she would have been either 6 or close to 6. She was definitely not a toddler anymore.

But how old was she when Ser Willam Dustin got sick and died? You're assuming what you seek to prove.

And you may be using a source of dubious canonicity. The whole schtick behing the World of Fire and Ice is that it is written by Maesters who do not necessarily know what they are talking about? This is in part so GRRM does not necessarily have to explicitly approve or disapprove every single word that Elio & Linda write. Also, it has not been released yet, so it seems to be premature to be quoting it as a source.

According to Joffrey, Viserys has been wandering the Free Cities since before Joffrey was born ... ie. since Dany was about 2 years old.

[Veltigar]

:agree: This is the "Occam's razor" explanation, certainly, but that is not going to stop people from imagining some fantastical scenarios.

Mayhaps the lemon tree was actually in Shelbyville, and Dany lived there.

Did those damn people from Shelbyville steal Springfield's lemon tree again? Assholes.

This is really strained. No canon source says that the Sealord has an orangery, only that "the mighty" have trees. The Italian City States were much further south than Braavos. Indoor "orangeries" come from the post-medieval/renaissance era - they are a modern invention, with truly greenhouses truly effective in more northerly-regions coming in the 19th century. In the pre-modern period glass was too expensive. And if they were guests of the Sealord, why did the Sealord's servants suddenly start misbehaving after Darry died?

Sigh, don't you ever get tired of cracking pots? WF is located far more to the North than Braavos and yet they have fully functioning greenhouses. Greenhouses take up a lot more glass than an orangery and require greater skill to build. Furthermore, the best clear glass in the world is made in Myr (last time I checked much closer to Braavos). Jon, when thinking about building greenhouses at the Wall (even further to the North, than WF) states that.

We know from the books that the gardens of the mighty Braavosi have trees in it. Something that makes sense, since trees are scarce and gardens in the corresponding age in real life Italy where designed to showcase a man's wealth, power and grandeur. So the more trees in a garden, the richer and powerful a Braavosi family is. And since Braavos is the wealthiest state in the books, it makes sense that the residence of the Sea Lord would be the a gorgeous place, build by the Braavosi to show the splendor of their state (And you can bet that every other Sea Lord would try and outdo his predecessors by installing yet another expensive building in the mance).

And just for the record, Braavos lies on the same latitude as the superbly fertile Riverlands. We know from the books that even land as far north as the Gift is still prime farmland, so Braavos is definitely warm enough to have trees during a summer.

Occam would shit himself, it was said several times that there are no lemon trees in Braavos and zero times we have lemon trees in Braavos, do you really think the one with no backup in the text is more probable then the one with several.

The only characters outside of Dany that have been to Braavos are Arya and Samwell. Neither of them has ever come close to the Sea Lord's mance. GRRM makes a point at showing how Arya is send out to live amongst the poorest of Braavosi. If she had been sent out to live with the wealthiest families, and she still hadn't seen trees, than you would have a point. But not at the moment.

When you hear hoofbeats, think of horses not zebras.

:cheers:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But how old was she when Ser Willam Dustin got sick and died? You're assuming what you seek to prove.

And you may be using a source of dubious canonicity. The whole schtick behing the World of Fire and Ice is that it is written by Maesters who do not necessarily know what they are talking about? This is in part so GRRM does not necessarily have to explicitly approve or disapprove every single word that Elio & Linda write. Also, it has not been released yet, so it seems to be premature to be quoting it as a source.

According to Joffrey, Viserys has been wandering the Free Cities since before Joffrey was born ... ie. since Dany was about 2 years old.

I don't assume anything. GRRM has given Elio and Linda information for in the app, and amongst that info, was that Dany was 5 when Ser Willem got sick, and that he died not long thereafter. So no, before reacting like this about my source, which you obviously got wrong, perhaps ask about my source..?

"According to Joffrey..." Seriously? Joffrey knows that Viserys has been in exile since before Joff was born. Joffrey does not know what Viserys and Dany have been doing all those years.

[mormont]

Since we're all very fond of Occam's Razor (which, by the way, states not that the simplest explanation is best, but that among competing explanations, the best is the one that requires fewest assumptions): it's surely worth noting that the lemon tree and the house with the red door are mentioned originally, and mainly, in AGOT. (There is one mention in ACOK, IIRC.)

Which of these two scenarios requires fewest assumptions?

1. Early in the series, the author had not yet worked out the geographical details of his world, in particular bits of it that had not yet actually appeared.

2. The author was planting a deliberate and subtle clue that a main character's childhood memories were false, as part of some subplot that remains undisclosed, indeed to which there are no other clues, in three subsequent volumes, but which will crop up at some point in the remaining two books.

[Veltigar]

Did those damn people from Shelbyville steal Springfield's lemon tree again? Assholes.

Sigh, don't you ever get tired of cracking pots? WF is located far more to the North than Braavos and yet they have fully functioning greenhouses. Greenhouses take up a lot more glass than an orangery and require greater skill to build. Furthermore, the best clear glass in the world is made in Myr (last time I checked much closer to Braavos). Jon, when thinking about building greenhouses at the Wall (even further to the North, than WF) states that.

We know from the books that the gardens of the mighty Braavosi have trees in it. Something that makes sense, since trees are scarce and gardens in the corresponding age in real life Italy where designed to showcase a man's wealth, power and grandeur. So the more trees in a garden, the richer and powerful a Braavosi family is. And since Braavos is the wealthiest state in the books, it makes sense that the residence of the Sea Lord would be the a gorgeous place, build by the Braavosi to show the splendor of their state (And you can bet that every other Sea Lord would try and outdo his predecessors by installing yet another expensive building in the mance).

And just for the record, Braavos lies on the same latitude as the superbly fertile Riverlands. We know from the books that even land as far north as the Gift is still prime farmland, so Braavos is definitely warm enough to have trees during a summer.

Since we're all very fond of Occam's Razor (which, by the way, states not that the simplest explanation is best, but that among competing explanations, the best is the one that requires fewest assumptions): it's surely worth noting that the lemon tree and the house with the red door are mentioned originally, and mainly, in AGOT. (There is one mention in ACOK, IIRC.)

Which of these two scenarios requires fewest assumptions?

1. Early in the series, the author had not yet worked out the geographical details of his world, in particular bits of it that had not yet actually appeared.

2. The author was planting a deliberate and subtle clue that a main character's childhood memories were false, as part of some subplot that remains undisclosed, indeed to which there are no other clues, in three subsequent volumes, but which will crop up at some point in the remaining two books.

Or you know:

3. The author legitimately included lemon trees