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[Analysis] Who is older: Robb or Jon?


Rhaenys_Targaryen

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For a while now, it seems that the general idea on the forum is that Robb Stark must be older than Jon Snow.

While it is known that Robb was both conceived and born in 283AC, with Jon, only the year of his birth (283AC) can be stated with certainty. From text in A Game of Thrones, it was clear that Jon’s nameday doesn’t occur all too far away from Robb’s. But with the POVs having split before anyone’s nameday can occur, it is difficult to see whose nameday occurs first, and whose occurs second.

When I asked why Robb must be the eldest, I received roughly the same explanation every time, and personally, I found the explanation not all that statisfying. So I decided to look into the matter again, and I figured I'd place it here, so we can all discuss it. I’ve divided all I came up with in two parts, and I’ll end with a conclusion.

Part 1: Quotes from ‘‘A Game of Thrones”

It is the general idea on the forum, for as far as I can tell, that Robb has to be the eldest of the two brothers. That idea seems to come from this quote from Catelyn:


Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles.

While at first look, it might seem that the above mentioned quote from Catelyn states that Jon was fathered by Ned after his marriage to Catelyn, I found this quote (here below) that made me rethink the first quote, and study it closer:


Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Catelyn here shows worries she had had about Jon fathering sons who would fight with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell in the future. This sounds a bit strange to me, if Jon was indeed younger than Robb.

Though inheritance at times can be a bit unclear, as a bastard, Jon would have absolutely no claim to Winterfell. No matter if he got married and had children, he would not have been in the line of succession as a bastard. Surely, there have been occasions where bastards have “helped” fate a bit for their trueborn siblings, to ensure themselves a place in succession. And it isn’t unthinkable that one who is born a bastard, ends up as the heir to a seat, either. We see the bastard Addam of Hull being named the heir to the Driftmark, above other, trueborn, Velaryon family members. Ramsay Snow is named heir to the Dreadfort, despite Roose Bolton marrying and obviously getting his wife pregnant.

The important thing with these two examples, is that both subjects from the examples were legitimized, before being named as heir to their fathers seat.

So for Catelyn's fears to even have a chance of coming true, Jon would need to be legitimized. As a bastard who isn't legitimized, he would not have any claim to Winterfell, and while he can marry and father trueborn sons of his own, those children would not be in the line of succession, because Jon isn't.

This brings into question, why would Catelyn fear that Jon’s sons (not Jon himself, but his sons) would stand a chance to take Winterfell from Catelyn’s grandchildren? Robb would inherit Winterfell, and his sons and daughters after him. Should Robb and his children die, Winterfell would have gone to Bran and his sons and then daughters, and next to Rickon and his children. And of course, after Bran, the best claim would have been Sansa’s, with her children, and as last Arya, with her children. Would Catelyn truly have been thinking that Jon’s children would kill all of her sons, daughters, grandsons and granddaughters, so they could lay claim to Winterfell? That seems a bit much. Catelyn doesn't seem to be thinking all too badly about other people's bastards, after all. And she knows Jon's personality. So why assume, without actual reason, that Jon's trueborn sons, who won't even be in line to inherit, will do something so very drastic, if Jon is the younger?

Which brings me back to the first quote:


Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles.

The first part, “It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign”, shows that Catelyn learned about Jon Snow in the first year of her marriage. This quote does not show that Jon Snow was conceived during the first year of Catelyn’s marriage, however.

The second part of that sentence, “on some girl chance met on campaignwould make you think about the parts of the war from the Battle of the Bells until the Sack and beyond. But the war had been going on earlier than the Battle of the Bells.

Ned and Cat were betrothed early on in the war (as LF send Catelyn a letter after Brandon had died, but she didn’t read it, because by then she knew she was going to marry Ned in Brandons stead). In fact, it seems most logical that Ned had given his consent for such a match to Jon Arryn, and left for the north to reach Winterfell and call his banners, relying on Jon Arryn to arrange the match, details and all. With the actual wedding occurring a couple of months into the war, there are a few months of war where Ned was betrothed, but not yet married.

During these months, battles were already happening. Ned was, after reaching Winterfell and marching south with his banners, “on campaign”. The journey from Winterfell to the Riverlands would occur during Neds betrothal, and would count as being “on campaign” as well. In addition, there would potentially have been time for Ned to have slept with a girl (had he been the type of person to do so), despite having been promised to Catelyn already.

(In fact, this seems to be what the fisherman’s daughter rumours in Westeros have been based upon. That Jon was conceived prior to Ned’s wedding.)

However, the sentence “He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun” would suggest that Catelyn seems to think that Ned fathered Jon after their marriage.

Currently, I don't know how and if this quote can be taken in another way.

I am left wondering, now, is Jon really the youngest of the two? Or does Catelyn believe that Jon was fathered during her short engagement to Ned, giving her actual cause to fear the claims of her grandchildren over Winterfell? I can completely understand such fear when the bastard is older than the trueborn children, while, if the bastard isn’t the eldest, I’d say those fears have very little ground.

In addition, it is generally stated that Jon and Robb will have been born only a few weeks apart. While Catelyn states that Robb was conceived during her wedding night, she also stated that Ned remained with her for two weeks, before moving on. "He had a man's needs, after all." but with such two conceptions needing to occur close to one another, Ned would have needed to sleep with Jon's mother only weeks after Robb's conception. And two of those weeks, he still spend at Riverrun. Yet Catelyn doesn't seem to think that Ned slept with any girl from the Riverlands, the area where Ned would be in the first few weeks after leaving Riverrun.

Which all makes me suspect that perhaps Jon might indeed be the eldest of the two children.

Part 2: The Timeline

After studying those quotes, and thinking about them, I went and took a look at the timeline.

The first event that we know took place in 283AC, is the Battle of the Bells. So technically, this battle could have taken place on the very first day of the year. Catelyn and Ned got married after the battle, and the fact that Lysa’s marriage to Jon Arryn, which was arranged after the Battle of the Bells, was arranged “hastily”, suggests that it might have been only a few days that passed in between. This means that technically, Ned’s wedding to Catelyn could have taken place in the first or second week of the year. That a war was going on, might also indeed suggest that not much time passed.. There were other things to worry about.

Robb was conceived on the wedding night, and thus, would have been born 9 months later. With both his conception and birth occurring in 283AC, Robb’s birth took place somewhere in the 10th, 11th or 12th months of the year. The earliest, it seems, that Robb’s birth could have occurred, would be in the first half of the 10th month.

Which is fine, but here the troubles begin. If Jon is older than Robb, than Jon’s birth must have occurred in the 10th, 11th or 12th month as well. Say that Ned and Catelyn indeed got married in the first week of the year, a few days after the Battle at the Stony Sept, and that Robb was born a full pregnancy (38 weeks = 9 months and ±1 week) later, Robb’s birth would have occurred in the second week of the 10th month.

In the scenario where Jon is younger than Robb, Jon’s birth should have occurred in the 3rd or 4rd week of the 10th month, or even in the 11th or 12th month.

We have this SSM where GRRM says that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany did. That means that, when we look at their namedays in a year, Dany’s nameday will occur, and 3 to 4 months later, Jon’s nameday will occur.

In the scenario where Jon is younger than Robb, and his nameday thus occurred in the second half of the 10th month, or in the 11th or 12th month, Dany’s would be occurring 3 to 4 months earlier. When looking at the earliest placement of Jon’s nameday in the year possible according to this scenario, (3rd week of 10th month), Dany’s nameday would occur 3 to 4 months earlier, thus in the second half of the 6th or 7th month.

And this is a problem.

When Daenerys arrives in Qarth, she tells Jorah:

“Ser Jorah, find the docks and see what manner of ships lay at anchor. It has been half a year since I last heard tidings from the Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps the gods will have blown some good captain here from Westeros with a ship to carry us home.”

Daenerys’ last moment of receiving news from Westeros, would have been the last time they were close to a city, or a caravan. This was Vaes Dothrak, which they left when Daenerys was still pregnant. In addition, Dany´s arrival in Qarth is the first mentioning of her being 15, whereas in the Red Waste, it had been mentioned that she was still 14. So either in the Red Waste, or on the journey to Qarth, Dany's nameday occurred.

What we know now, is that in the half year since Vaes Dothrak, Dany's nameday occurred. She doesn't know yet that Robert Baratheon and Eddard Stark are dead, when she sends Jorah out. That does not mean that the two men weren´t dead yet when Dany left Vaes Dothrak. It means that the news hadn't reached Vaes Dothrak yet.

A while later in the same chapter, we get this quote:


“The honor is mine, Quhuru Mo,” said Dany in the same language. “Have you come from the Summer Isles?”

“This is so, Your Grace, but before, not half a year past, we called at Oldtown. From there I bring you a wondrous gift.”

“A gift?”

“A gift of news. Dragonmother, Stormborn, I tell you true, Robert Baratheon is dead.

Outside her walls, dusk was settling over Qarth, but a sun had risen in Dany’s heart. “Dead?” she repeated. In her lap, black Drogon hissed, and pale smoke rose before her face like a veil. “You are certain? The Usurper is dead?”

So it is said in Oldtown, and Dorne, and Lys, and all the other ports where we have called.”

He sent me poisoned wine, yet I live and he is gone. “What was the manner of his death?” On her shoulder, pale Viserion flapped wings the color of cream, stirring the air.

“Torn by a monstrous boar whilst hunting in his kingswood, or so I heard in Oldtown. Others say his queen betrayed him, or his brother, or Lord Stark who was his Hand. Yet all the tales agree in this: King Robert is dead and in his grave.”

Dany had never looked upon the Usurper’s face, yet seldom a day had passed when she had not thought of him. His great shadow had lain across her since the hour of her birth, when she came forth amidst blood and storm into a world where she no longer had a place. And now this ebony stranger had lifted that shadow.

“The boy sits the Iron Throne now,” Ser Jorah said.

“King Joffrey reigns,” Quhuru Mo agreed, “but the Lannisters rule. Robert’s brothers have fled King’s Landing. The talk is, they mean to claim the crown. And the Hand has fallen, Lord Stark who was King Robert’s friend. He has been seized for treason.

This short passage tells us a few things. First, that “not half a year past”, Robert had died, and Ned had been arrested. More importantly, Ned was arrested, but not yet executed.

Though Quhuru only gives a timeframe for his visit to Oldtown (not half a year past), he does give us his route of travel. The most important part: from Oldtown, Quhuru went to Dorne. When at Dorne, news of Neds death still hadn’t arrived yet, showing that either he had not yet been executed, or had just been executed, and the raven hadn’t reached Dorne yet. If the second option is in play, then Quhuru would have left Dorne within days of Ned death.

Also very important, Quhuru says that “the talk is, [Robert’s brothers] mean to claim the throne”. If this is the last news that Quhuru has heard since leaving Westeros, then by the time he left Dorne, Renly (who was the first to claim the crown) had not yet crowned himself.

It will take a while to sail from Oldtown to Dorne. During this time, as can be judged from this quote, Ned still hadn’t died (or has just died, but the news hasn’t reached Dorne, the last port in Westeros Quhuru visited, yet).

Where does this place Dany’s arrival in Qarth in the timeframe?

We know that Ned died in the first few weeks of 299AC, and that Renly claimed the throne some time before that, somewhere around the changing of the year (making is basically impossible to state with 100% certainty whether this was in 298AC or 299AC; all that can be said is that it occurred in the few weeks surrounding Westeros’ New Years eve)

So Ned has been dead for less than half a year. More importantly, Dany thus arrives in Qarth less than half a year in 299AC, but she did already turn 15.

Which is a problem if she would need to turn 15 in the 3rd week of the 6th month, or later even.

Conclusion

Though there will naturally be wiggle room for GRRM to make it work with Jon being younger than Robb, should that truly be the case, (perhaps by stating that Cat’s pregnancy did not last the full 9 months, but ended a week or two ealier), while keeping Jons nameday occurring 3 or 4 months after Dany’s in the year, it seems that it has to be a very tight schedule, with a lot of necessities. For example, The Battle of the Bells will need to have occurred in the first week of the year, and the wedding of Ned and Catelyn will need to have occurred within a few days thereafter.

Catelyn's fears about Jon's children fighting for Winterfell against her own grandchildren, the timeframe with Dany's birth, Catelyn seemingly not considering Riverland-mothers for Jon... It all has made me think that Jon might in fact be the elder of the two boys.

Addition:

Interestingly enough, when looking up the link for the SSM I linked above, I came across this on the Citadel-site of Westeros.org (emphazis mine):


We know from this e-mail that Jon’s birth is 8-9 months prior to Daenerys’s, and that Daenerys is born almost precisely 9 months after the death of Rhaegar and the Sack of King’s Landing (I: 25). This would place Jon’s birth within one month, give or take, of the Sack. As we know the war lasts “close” to a year which is often just referred to as a “year” (I: 96, 233), suggesting 10-11 months is likelier than 9 months. Given this, his conception seems to have been between 1-3 months into the war. Interestingly, this contradicts suggestions from Catelyn and Ned that Jon was concieved some time after Robb’s conception (in itself an event taking place several months into the war), so either GRRM is mistaken or he has accidentally clarified a piece of information which was intended to be obfuscated in the series (I: 54, 92). Our own view is that the latter is the case, as GRRM is rather precise about the relative birthdates in a way that seems too absolute to be a random error.

If Jon is the eldest of the two, what does it mean?

Well, it would mean the following:

With the knowledge that Dany was born 9 months after fleeing KL, an event that occured about a week before the Sack of King's Landing, combined with the knowledge that Jon was born 8 to 9 months before Dany, we can say that Jon was born either in the week before the Sack, or in the three weeks following.

We also know that the Battle of the Bells occurs in 283AC (the Sack does so as well).

If Jon is older than Robb, this means that the Sack of KL took place earlier in the year than previously thought. It would also mean that the time between the Battle of the Bells and the end of the war wasn't more than 9 months, as previously suspected, but more close to 7 or 8 months.

So, can we state that Jon is older than Robb? Or is Robb definitly older than Jon? Or do we still lack the right information to be able to say whose older?

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I'm quite sure the Battle of the Bells was after Ned and Cat'd wedding.

Catelyn believes that Lysa's match to Jon Arryn was arranged because Jon Arryn's last heir had died. Jon's last heir was killed during the Battle of the Bells.

Meaning that the double wedding occured after the Battle of the Bells.

Maybe but what does it matter? For determining Jon's parents?

For making a timeline for the Rebellion, which I am working on, and making other timelines better.. For deeper storyline understanding (Catelyn/Jon arcs).

For Jon's parents, and who they are, it doesn't change a thing. But if the general idea is "Robb is older", and it can be textually said that this is might not be true, than it would be worth it to try and figure it out further, right?

In AGoT, Ned mentions that he dishonoured himself and Catelyn by fathering a bastard. This tells me that Jon was conceived after Ned's marriage to Catelyn and is therefore younger than Robb. Or at least Ned thinks he is.

I thought about that quote as well. But wouldn't it count as dishounering someone when you father a bastard after you've pledged to wed someone?

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Do we know how long they were betrothed before they wed?

A few months, at most. We have very little information on it. In fact, we only have Catelyn telling us that LF had send her a letter after Brandon had died, but that she didn't open it because by then she knew that Ned would marry her in Brandons stead.

“He wrote to me at Riverrun after Brandon was killed, but I burned the letter unread. By then I knew that Ned would marry me in his brother’s place.”

With Ned leaving the Eyrie, traveling North, and then marching from Winterfell to the south to fight in the Battle of the Bells (a battle which only seems to have happened because the royalist army managed to almost catch up with a wounded Robert), there basically wouldn't have been much time for Ned to arrange such a match himself. So I am guessing that Ned and Jon Arryn discussed the matter before Ned left the Eyrie, and that Ned agreed to the match, and Jon Arryn arranged the rest.. Which would place their betrothal a month or so after Brandon's death, while Ned was traveling north, or perhaps a few months later, while Ned was marching from Winterfell to the Riverlands.

Edit: added the quote from Game.

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A few months, at most. We have very little information on it. In fact, we only have Catelyn telling us that LF had send her a letter after Brandon had died, but that she didn't open it because by then she knew that Ned would marry her in Brandons stead.

With Ned leaving the Eyrie, traveling North, and then marching from Winterfell to the south to fight in the Battle of the Bells (a battle which only seems to have happened because the royalist army managed to almost catch up with a wounded Robert), there basically wouldn't have been much time for Ned to arrange such a match himself. So I am guessing that Ned and Jon Arryn discussed the matter before Ned left the Eyrie, and that Ned agreed to the match, and Jon Arryn arranged the rest.. Which would place their betrothal a month or so after Brandon's death, while Ned was traveling north, or perhaps a few months later, while Ned was marching from Winterfell to the Riverlands.

Edit: added the quote from Game.

Yeah there is nothing definitive. We don't know how long after Brandons death LF sent that letter. I don't think there is anything definitive in the text that points to either Robb or Jon being older. The difference in ages might only be a matter of weeks.

eta. here is the full quote from AGoT:

“I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men. Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn. I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

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Catelyn believes that Lysa's match to Jon Arryn was arranged because Jon Arryn's last heir had died. Jon's last heir was killed during the Battle of the Bells.

Meaning that the double wedding occured after the Battle of the Bells.

I guess you're right. :bowdown:

eta. here is the full quote from AGoT:

“I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men. Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn. I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

Yeah, this is the clincher for me, unless we want to get into SweetRobinSkinChanger territory where everyone is lying to everyone else about everything. (And yes, I realize Ned is lying right there, but Ned always lies as little as possible.)

And if he had any chance of saying "It was before I even met you." I think he would take it.

My only problem is I have to adjust the point the Battle of the Bells took place in the war timeline in my head now. I always pictured it as MUCH later in the war.

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I agree that Jon could be older, but your reasoning seems flawed in that if Catelyn believes that Jon was conceived after she and Ned married, then how could she also be concerned about the Stark succession? She would have to suspect that Jon was older for this to make sense. :)


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Yeah there is nothing definitive. We don't know how long after Brandons death LF sent that letter. I don't think there is anything definitive in the text that points to either Robb or Jon being older. The difference in ages might only be a matter of weeks.

eta. here is the full quote from AGoT:

“I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men. Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn. I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

If that quote is taken to mean: "I fathered Jon after I was married to Catelyn. She was already pregnant, by then." That would require Ned to have learned of Cat's pregnancy.

As we read in the books, when "their blood" hadn't come at the accustomed time, both Cat and Lysa had believed they were pregnant. However, Lysa's moon blood came soon after. Though Cat, since 2 weeks after her wedding night could have suspected a pregnancy, announcing her pregnancy to her husband at war would most likely have come somewhat later, when everyone was certain that she was pregnant. Like, when the swelling of the belly begins, around the 2nd or 3rd month. Then, that message would need to reach Ned, who is busy fighting a war at a location unknown to us, currently. That would take time as well.

All in all, if Ned is trying to make it sound like Jon was conceived after he learned that Cat was pregnant, Jon would have to be a month or two younger than Robb.. It definitly seems like this is not the case.

So then what should that quote be taken to mean? That Ned "acknowledged" Jon?

I guess you're right. :bowdown:

Yeah, this is the clincher for me, unless we want to get into SweetRobinSkinChanger territory where everyone is lying to everyone else about everything. (And yes, I realize Ned is lying right there, but Ned always lies as little as possible.)

And if he had any chance of saying "It was before I even met you." I think he would take it.

My only problem is I have to adjust the point the Battle of the Bells took place in the war timeline in my head now. I always pictured it as MUCH later in the war.

What it would mean if Jon was a month or two older than Robb, it would mean that between the Battle of the Bells, the war went on for another 7 months, and not another 9 or 10.

Rhaenys, perhaps you can add a second part, if you think it could help, working backwards from the end of the war? We know when Dany was conceived (Chelsted's burning, if I'm not mistaken), and that Jon is 8-9 months older than her?

Will do. :)

I agree that Jon could be older, but your reasoning seems flawed in that if Catelyn believes that Jon was conceived after she and Ned married, then how could she also be concerned about the Stark succession? She would have to suspect that Jon was older for this to make sense. :)

O haha, that was one of the points I was trying to get across.. That the idea of Jon being younger doesn't fit with Cat's fear of Jon's kids trying to claim Winterfell.

But I hate those theories where people "accidentally" forget quotes that might point to something else, so I felt I did have to give that one quote, and admit that I don't know how it would fit in my view. :)

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If that quote is taken to mean: "I fathered Jon after I was married to Catelyn. She was already pregnant, by then." That would require Ned to have learned of Cat's pregnancy.

Not necessarily. If everybody knows that the first time Ned and Catelyn met again after their wedding was at Winterfell, with Robb born, then it's obvious that Catelyn was pregnant when Ned supposedly fathered Jon, but Ned could not have known it at the time. It's the public knowledge that dishonors Catelyn a posteriori.

But in any case, the "I had taken her to wife" part seems clear. Ned is supposed to have fathered Jon after he fathered Robb. And I guess Jon's nameday must be placed after Robb's in the year, else Catelyn would have wondered why Jon was born first. But there's also the possibility that Jon was born before Robb, and that Ned lied on the date of his nameday, to avoid suspicions !

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I agree that Jon could be older, but your reasoning seems flawed in that if Catelyn believes that Jon was conceived after she and Ned married, then how could she also be concerned about the Stark succession? She would have to suspect that Jon was older for this to make sense. :)

Nah, even a younger brother can work around it. As I understand it, Cat saw in Jon another Blackfyre in the making (Daemon Blackfyre was ten, maybe fifteen years younger than Daeron, BTW). A bastard, yet raised not differently than the legitimate heir (and backup heirs). Dad's favorite, designed to take over the business skipping over his half-brothers - not that Ned intended that to happen, not even that Cat believed those were Ned's intentions, but it was possible for some to perceive Jon just like that. Suppose some time Ned asked Bob to legitimize Jon - not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Suppose Jon himself, or some adviser whispering in Jon's ear, thought of challenging Robb's claim - hey, you guys notice he doesn't even look like daddy? Ever wonder why? With those ingredients, someone might attempt at cooking a Northern version of the Blackfyre rebellion.

That's, obviously, a big bunch of whatifs, not inevitable by any measure, maybe even not probable. But not impossible, either. Bottom line, with Jon Snow, raised in Winterfell, raised as befit lord's trueborn son and looking Stark all over, the picture is no longer crystal clear.

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Not necessarily. If everybody knows that the first time Ned and Catelyn met again after their wedding was at Winterfell, with Robb born, then it's obvious that Catelyn was pregnant when Ned supposedly fathered Jon, but Ned could not have known it at the time. It's the public knowledge that dishonors Catelyn a posteriori.

But in any case, the "I had taken her to wife" part seems clear. Ned is supposed to have fathered Jon after he fathered Robb. And I guess Jon's nameday must be placed after Robb's in the year, else Catelyn would have wondered why Jon was born first. But there's also the possibility that Jon was born before Robb, and that Ned lied on the date of his nameday, to avoid suspicions !

If we are going to be convinced that everybody is lying about everything, than we're getting nowhere :p

In any case, the question about Jon and Dany's nameday, were about those that we;ve seen mentioned in the story.

If Jon is younger than Robb, it does give a few problems. For instance, why would Catelyn fear that Jon's children will become a problem with the Winterfell inheritance?

The quote given above ( I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”) does suggest that Ned knew when he did what he supposedly did how the situation was. It doesn´t sound like some realisation afterwards.

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Nah, even a younger brother can work around it. As I understand it, Cat saw in Jon another Blackfyre in the making (Daemon Blackfyre was ten, maybe fifteen years younger than Daeron, BTW). A bastard, yet raised not differently than the legitimate heir (and backup heirs). Dad's favorite, designed to take over the business skipping over his half-brothers - not that Ned intended that to happen, not even that Cat believed those were Ned's intentions, but it was possible for some to perceive Jon just like that. Suppose some time Ned asked Bob to legitimize Jon - not entirely out of the realm of possibility. Suppose Jon himself, or some adviser whispering in Jon's ear, thought of challenging Robb's claim - hey, you guys notice he doesn't even look like daddy? Ever wonder why? With those ingredients, someone might attempt at cooking a Northern version of the Blackfyre rebellion.

:agree:

I'm sorry, but like I said before, if there was any chance that Ned thought he could get away with saying that Jon was conceived before he was married to Cat, he would take it.

The only way for this to work was for Robb to be quite premature, which is possible, I guess, but you would think that a premature baby surviving in this universe would be worthy of mention.

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:agree:

I'm sorry, but like I said before, if there was any chance that Ned thought he could get away with saying that Jon was conceived before he was married to Cat, he would take it.

The only way for this to work was for Robb to be quite premature, which is possible, I guess, but you would think that a premature baby surviving in this universe would be worthy of mention.

Exactly. Either Jon was conceived first, or Robb.

Cat thinks about Robb's birth a few times. Elia was mentioned to have been born with 8 months, so if Robb's birth had been a similar situation, I think it would have been mentioned.

This is quite a difficult subject, and perhaps we just don't have the right amount of information yet..

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Exactly. Either Jon was conceived first, or Robb.

Cat thinks about Robb's birth a few times. Elia was mentioned to have been born with 8 months, so if Robb's birth had been a similar situation, I think it would have been mentioned.

This is quite a difficult subject, and perhaps we just don't have the right amount of information yet..

Yes.... Unless they're twins..... :leaving:

But I'm confused Rhaenys. What's your position exactly? Are we on the same side? What are we arguing about? Where am I? My head hurts.

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