[Analysis] Who is older: Robb or Jon?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

She was nice to other bastards, but maybe she is just polite person. She seems to think nice of Mya, but her comments about Mya and her lover rub me the wrong way. I don't know why. Maybe I need to reread the book.

I felt the same way :)

[Consigliere]

She was nice to other bastards, but maybe she is just polite person. She seems to think nice of Mya, but her comments about Mya and her lover rub me the wrong way. I don't know why. Maybe I need to reread the book.

I'd say Cat was just being realistic. No way a trueborn son of a noble lord is going to end up marrying a bastard even if he did love her. In the end Cat was proved right because he ended up getting married to one of Bronze Yohn's daughters.

[HexMachina]

Yes.... Unless they're twins..... :leaving:

I'm sure the current theory goes that it is triplets...Three heads has the dragon, Dany and the other two triplets...that is why she is Child of Three...

:mellow: :mellow:

No avatar change today, yay!

ETA:

I'd say Cat was just being realistic. No way a trueborn son of a noble lord is going to end up marrying a bastard even if he did love her. In the end Cat was proved right because he ended up getting married to one of Bronze Yohn's daughters.

I'm not sure, her thoughts about Mya are complicated:

It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard’s name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned’s bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply.

I think most of it his transference of her problems with Jon though, rather than a particular gripe that she is a bastard (hence the bolded part). Though she does hide her thoughts, and treats Mya well

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I'm quite sure the Battle of the Bells was after Ned and Cat'd wedding.

It's up for debate, Ned and Jon Arryn met up with Hoster Tully before the battle of the Bells, presumably at Riverrun, and we know that Ned was riding off into battle very soon after his wedding, the battle couldn't have been the Trident, since that happened too late, so is presumably the Bells, making it seem likely Ned was married before the battle.

On the other hand Jon Arryn only seems to have been married after Denys died at the Battle of the Bells.

So one of three things stated in the books are incorrect:

1. Ned and Jon were married at different times

2. Jon married Lysa before Denys died

3. Ned didn't ride to battle straight after his wedding.

#2 seems the most likely to be correct, as there is only one line stating Jon married Lysa after Denys' death, and this is contradicted by the fact that Hoster made Jon marry her to secure his support in the war, mainly due to her being deflowered by Littlefinger.

IMO Ned and Cat (and Jon and Lysa) were probably married before the Battle of the Bells, though we won't know for sure until we get AWOIAF (hopefully, I really want some timelines).

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Catelyn is paranoid and her fears of Jon and his offspring have no validity, legitimisation seems to be very rare, aside from Aegon's disastrous deathbed proclamations there is very little precedent for it. The only other case we know of is a few of the dragonseeds being recognised as Velaryons.

She has no reason to suspect Jon will be legitimised, and even if he is we have never been given an instance where a bastard/descendant of a bastard has successfully seized a title from a trueborn heir. The only thing the Blackfyre rebellions prove is that:

1. Archery is awesome.

2. The wind that blows exiles across the narrow sea rarely blows them back.

[HexMachina]

Catelyn is paranoid and her fears of Jon and his offspring have no validity, legitimisation seems to be very rare, aside from Aegon's disastrous deathbed proclamations there is very little precedent for it. The only other case we know of is a few of the dragonseeds being recognised as Velaryons.

She has no reason to suspect Jon will be legitimised, and even if he is we have never been given an instance where a bastard/descendant of a bastard has successfully seized a title from a trueborn heir. The only thing the Blackfyre rebellions prove is that:

1. Archery is awesome.

2. The wind that blows exiles across the narrow sea rarely blows them back.

The who problem with bastards is the "treacherous by nature" stigma. Which has some backing, with the notable examples of Daemon Blackfyre and the Treasons at Tumbleton. Of course, this probably has little and less to do with being a bastard, but I imagine that would give fuel to the flames in terms of Westerosi

[The Wolves]

The who problem with bastards is the "treacherous by nature" stigma. Which has some backing, with the notable examples of Daemon Blackfyre and the Treasons at Tumbleton. Of course, this probably has little and less to do with being a bastard, but I imagine that would give fuel to the flames in terms of Westerosi

I don't get that fear because Robb's and his children's claim is threatened more by Bran and Rickon and their children.

We hear more stories of trueborn siblings killing each other for their seats than any bastards. I think the Blackfyre rebellions is the only story so far we have heard of bastards making any claim on their trueborn siblings seat and Ramsey but he's a sadistic freak.

[joluoto2]

If Ned could get away with claiming Jon was elder than Rob, he would take it. Cat wouldn't be as hurt if Ned never was unfaithful. i.e. it happened before they married.

[David Selig]

Catelyn is paranoid and her fears of Jon and his offspring have no validity, legitimisation seems to be very rare, aside from Aegon's disastrous deathbed proclamations there is very little precedent for it. The only other case we know of is a few of the dragonseeds being recognised as Velaryons.

She has no reason to suspect Jon will be legitimised, and even if he is we have never been given an instance where a bastard/descendant of a bastard has successfully seized a title from a trueborn heir. The only thing the Blackfyre rebellions prove is that:

1. Archery is awesome.

2. The wind that blows exiles across the narrow sea rarely blows them back.

Ramsay Bolton says "hi".

[RumHam]

If Ned could get away with claiming Jon was elder than Rob, he would take it. Cat wouldn't be as hurt if Ned never was unfaithful. i.e. it happened before they married.

I actually think Catelyn would prefer it with Robb as Ned's first born. She doesn't seem too bothered by him cheating on her during that first year.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Ramsay Bolton says "hi".

cough Domeric cough cough.

[Ghost's Shadow]

The Boltons are bastards without being bastard born, though. :P

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

The Boltons are bastards without being bastard born, though. :P

Well yeah but Domeric was the only normal Bolton to ever exist,guess what happened to him?

[Ghost's Shadow]

Another Bolton proved he was an actual bastard besides the perhaps more regular kind? :P

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it's possible for Jon to be older, because we really don't know when he was born relative to Robb. What's important is that it's plausible to look at them and think that Robb's older, whether or not he is.

Why would Ned allow people to think that Robb was older if he wasn't? It's possible that Ned himself doesn't know when Jon was born (what Jon thinks of as his name day might be a "meh close enough" approximation); he might actually think Robb is older. Or he might think it's better for Catelyn to think Robb is older; if Jon were definitely older, in Catelyn's mind it might increase the risk that he might one day try to supplant Robb.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

The who problem with bastards is the "treacherous by nature" stigma. Which has some backing, with the notable examples of Daemon Blackfyre and the Treasons at Tumbleton. Of course, this probably has little and less to do with being a bastard, but I imagine that would give fuel to the flames in terms of Westerosi

Yes I don't think it is Cat's personality is behind her fears so much as the fact that highborn women are told to fear their husband's bastards for their children's' sake and because people actually believe that the manor of one's conception affects one's personality.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Ramsay Bolton says "hi".

Whilst he certainly succeeded in killing his brother (possibly) he only got away with it because his father was a Bolton, and I seriously doubt he will be lord of the Dreadfort at all, or at least not for very long.

[Mithras]

I think Cat's fear for Jon's sons to contest her grandchildren was about a possible marriage of Jon. If Jon was married to a lady from a Northern House who also had some distant claim to Winterfell, Jon's claim would be multiplied for those who seek causes to rebel.

[King Tyrion XX]

In AGoT, Ned mentions that he dishonoured himself and Catelyn by fathering a bastard. This tells me that Jon was conceived after Ned's marriage to Catelyn and is therefore younger than Robb. Or at least Ned thinks he is.

This assumes that Ned actually is Jon's father.

[scotcat]

Obviously this thread assumes that Ned is indeed Jon's father.

I think it's entirely possible that Jon is the elder of the two. We don't know that much about when exactly he was born in relation to Robb, other than the fact that the two are pretty close in age.

Cat's reaction to bastards was perfectly typical for a woman of her station.