Tycho and mace in bravos! [book spoilers]

[reddy95]

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-pics-maisie-williams-mark-gatiss-game-thrones-filming/#more-2616

So it seems mace goes to bravos instead of back home. That too with meryn trant accompanying him. What do you guys think of this change?

[John Carroll]

Well it looks as though Ser Meryn will be replacing Raff, which I'm totally okay with. I'm wondering if she'll be blinded for going off-grid and killing him, since I feel like Sam's journey won't get started until fairly late in the season.

[boojam]

http://watchersonthewall.com/new-pics-maisie-williams-mark-gatiss-game-thrones-filming/#more-2616

So it seems mace goes to bravos instead of back home. That too with meryn trant accompanying him. What do you guys think of this change?

Old news at this date.

The biggest surprise is a possible indication of the WoW 'Mercy' sequence , but how it comes off in the teleplay , unknown.

If it's there expect it to be end of the season.

[Beric175]

Well, if Ser Meryn turns out to have been Syrio all this time in the books this will definitely be a change but that's the thing. None of us know but we all speculate and going against a popular theory that at this point is still a theory is no biggie. So, HBO, carry on.

[boojam]

Well, if Ser Meryn turns out to have been Syrio all this time in the books this will definitely be a change but that's the thing. None of us know but we all speculate and going against a popular theory that at this point is still a theory is no biggie. So, HBO, carry on.

I have never heard a theory that Trant might be Syrio Forel!

Are you sure you did mean to write Jaqen?

Is some one saying Syrio is a FM who took Trant's face? That's more convoluted than Syrio being

Jaqen!

At this late date I sort of expect we won't see Syrio back , still GRRM has equivocated on that

score. First , I think saying, he's dead, tho he did not kill him on the page, and

then waffling

even being evasive with Miltos Yeromelou who asked him.

I guess every one noticed where Miltos will be seen next?

Makes me wonder if Star Wars is leveraging off GOT actors fame?

I could see Charles Dance , Rory, others with roles in SW.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

More diverging from the books. I cant WAIT to see how they manage to get Mace to Braavos? Such an unnecessary change? Is it SO hard just to create Swyft?

[Janicia]

Nobody cares about Swyft.

I very much like the idea of tying Arya into the rest of the story and bringing together a quorum of characters in Bravos. My concern is that if Arya kills Trant while he's on a diplomatic mission, there should be consequences. The Iron Bank should be really unhappy about an apprentice Faceless man assassinating their guest. And while Kings Landing will be in too much chaos at the end of season 5 to care much about Trant's death; you'd think there would eventually be impacts there. So if Arya is going to kill somebody important at this point in the show, the show needs to be willing to percolate the impact of that assassination forward, rather than continuing with Arya's story as if Trant could disappear the same way that Dareon did.

I'm a little disappointed that Tycho isn't visiting Kings Landing because I thought it would be tremendous fun to see him talk to Cersei. But Cersei sending an envoy to Tycho is more consistent with the books and will work better in Cersei's arc (getting Mace out of town for most of the season, and not having to work out what to do with the iron bank envoy once Cersei is arrested).

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Nobody cares about Swyft.

I'm sure book purists do. Did nobody care about Talisa instead of Jeyne Westerling? Makes no sense to put Mace there, absolutely no way would book Mace accept this mission with how tetchy his relationship with Cersei is

[Game of Thrones Reference]

I'm sure book purists do. Did nobody care about Talisa instead of Jeyne Westerling? Makes no sense to put Mace there, absolutely no way would book Mace accept this mission with how tetchy his relationship with Cersei is

Book purists are unreasonable and have no idea how tv works. They can't keep adding character upon character and subplot upon subplot every season because that would weigh down the story and the narrative will spin out of control. Mace Tyrell in Braavos works and is consistent with his character. Your only issue is that it never happened in the books.

[juanml82]

Nobody cares about Swyft.

I very much like the idea of tying Arya into the rest of the story and bringing together a quorum of characters in Bravos. My concern is that if Arya kills Trant while he's on a diplomatic mission, there should be consequences. The Iron Bank should be really unhappy about an apprentice Faceless man assassinating their guest. And while Kings Landing will be in too much chaos at the end of season 5 to care much about Trant's death; you'd think there would eventually be impacts there. So if Arya is going to kill somebody important at this point in the show, the show needs to be willing to percolate the impact of that assassination forward, rather than continuing with Arya's story as if Trant could disappear the same way that Dareon did.

I'm a little disappointed that Tycho isn't visiting Kings Landing because I thought it would be tremendous fun to see him talk to Cersei. But Cersei sending an envoy to Tycho is more consistent with the books and will work better in Cersei's arc (getting Mace out of town for most of the season, and not having to work out what to do with the iron bank envoy once Cersei is arrested).

That's assuming the Iron Bank knows a FM apprentice killed him. If the body isn't found, Mace might believe Trant went AWOL and left him without a guard. The FM might realize what happened, but it doesn't mean they'll let the IB know.

But yes, there should be consequences which will move Arya's story forward.

And, who knows, maybe Mace dies as well.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Book purists are unreasonable and have no idea how tv works. They can't keep adding character upon character and subplot upon subplot every season because that would weigh down the story and the narrative will spin out of control. Mace Tyrell in Braavos works and is consistent with his character. Your only issue is that it never happened in the books.

Watch the Sopranos. You can introduce characters and find feasible ways to present them. If it doesn't work well, oh well, they already killed that excuse when they had Lysa tell Petyr randomly that she killed Jon. Book purists aren't unreasonable, the changes D&D make for convenience sake confuse the plot later on, and makes it difficult to keep to the books, which are, unsurprisingly, the better plots. (Jaime being back early, not enough mention of Tysha etc, complete absence of Asha at Deepwood, that STUPID dreadfort scene ruining Asha and Theon's depressing scene in ADWD.)

[Beric175]

The plot of the show and the plot of the books will start to diverge significantly from here on out. It's easy for us readers to complain about characters being left out when you'd need to devote time and money to find and pay an extra actor and make a new costume just for him and devote time to introduce him, even though his part can be given to an already established character. As long as it's not coming out of our pocket, it's easy for us to complain about changes and narrative economy. These books have thousands of characters and subplots. The needs of the many show watchers (which includes book readers that are open to changes) outweigh the needs of the few (the purists that can't tolerate any divergences). This is a tv show, not a book. I was not upset at the Talisa/Jeyne divergence because jeyne was just such a non-entity in the books who made no impression on me whatsoever and in the end the RW held a surprise for me as a reader as well, whilst showcasing Walder's misogyny and at the same time referenced Dacey Mormont's death in the book so the change worked out fine for me. Sure, it was a more traditional love story but in the end I cared more about both Robb and Talisa in the show than I did about Robb and Jeyne in the book because neither were POVs.

Considering that they have kept Ser Meryn around all this time I just thought that Syrio being a faceless man was at least possible because they would not show him as prominently if he wasn't going to do something. What would have prevented the Faceless Men from sending two assassins to King's Landing if they needed to kill two different people in two diferent places at the same time? The only significant thing Meryn has done is confront Syrio in book 1 so that's where my attention was.

[JagLover]

Mace is barely in AFFC/ADWD until the end. So why not use him to replace another character?, it makes sense to me, and is hardly a fundamental change.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Mace is barely in AFFC/ADWD until the end. So why not use him to replace another character?, it makes sense to me, and is hardly a fundamental change.

Because it makes no sense. Mace would never lackey for Cersei

[littleRickon]

lackying seems to be most of what book!Mace does, and all that show!Mace ever does. Make him master of coin, and his going to Braavos on behalf of the iron throne seems very much in character

[boojam]

Because it makes no sense. Mace would never lackey for Cersei

But he would do what ever his mother told him to do.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

But he would do what ever his mother told him to do.

Why would she send him off to Braavos? Makes no political sense. He's the most powerful lord in Westeros as of current- keeping him out of the capital would be a mistake

[Janicia]

Because it makes no sense. Mace would never lackey for Cersei

Mace wants the Lannister-Tyrell reign to succeed and he wants power within it. Negotiations with the Iron Bank are important, and Cersei is mishandling them. This is something the Tyrells should want to be managing rather than leaving it to Cersei and her spineless lackeys. They might even think that in return for resolving the nation's financial problems, Cersei would have to make Mace the Hand.

Further, the show is it's own self-contained thing. Show Mace is a bit different from Book Mace, and Show Margery is much more of a player than Book Margery. Show Mace is either an easy-going fool or he pretends to be in order to lull people into complacency. Show Mace would lackey for Cersei, trusting that show Margery could handle Tyrell interests in the capital.

Finally, the whole arc of the Kings Landing story is that the Tyrells and Cersei misjudge each other and that in their struggle, they do a lot of damage to both houses. If the Tyrells were playing the game perfectly, they wouldn't have been in the position they were in at the end of ADWD. Even if you believe the Grand Tyrell Conspiracy theories, that conspiracy is the result of the Tyrells finding themselves in a bad position and resorting to desperate measures to get out of it. Since this part of the story is about both sides making mistakes, criticisms of "well it would be dumb for this person to do that" are goofy.

[boojam]

Mace wants the Lannister-Tyrell reign to succeed and he wants power within it. Negotiations with the Iron Bank are important, and Cersei is mishandling them. This is something the Tyrells should want to be managing rather than leaving it to Cersei and her spineless lackeys. They might even think that in return for resolving the nation's financial problems, Cersei would have to make Mace the Hand.

I can't remember , I am sure it's implied, ... on the show the Tyrells now are the richest house in Westeros, but in the books?

It's an interesting thought , if the Tyrells were to deal with the IB and have money that puts them above the Lannisters , they could cut a deal with the IB, since the IB would know they have money.

[SoManyVows]

Because it makes no sense. Mace would never lackey for Cersei

Keep in mind that Mace Tyrell does indeed leave King's Landing on Cersei's directive in A Feast for Crows. She sends him to besiege Storm's End, largely as a pretext to get him out of King's Landing.

Why would she send him off to Braavos? Makes no political sense. He's the most powerful lord in Westeros as of current- keeping him out of the capital would be a mistake

Taking a line directly from Mace Tyrell's page on A Wiki of Ice and Fire: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Mace_Tyrell

"Mace is charged by Queen Regent Cersei Lannister with the capture of Storm's End in order to remove him from King's Landing. He sets out with half the Tyrell strength. (reference: Chapter 12 of AFFC, Cersei III). With Mace gone Cersei plots against his daughter, Margaery. Reciprocal accusations of immorality leads to the imprisonment of both Margaery and Cersei by the Faith of the Seven When Mace receives news of this he leaves the siege and marches his army back to King's Landing, leaving Lord Mathis Rowan to continue the siege with fewer men."

It is extremely unlikely that the siege of Storm's End will be in the show. Nor should it be. It is the very definition of a mop-up campaign, and as such, the stakes are intrinsically low. A far more interesting mop-up campaign (Jaime lifting the siege of Riverrun) appears to have been cut, and if Loras goes to take Dragonstone in the show, I will be stunned (more likely he will just head to the Reach - which is where he truly wanted to go in the first place - and get injured there). Of those three mop-up campaigns, Mace's journey to Storm's End is the least eventful by far. We cannot expect the larger viewing audience to care about such an expedition (I've read the books several times, and to be honest, I don't care).

GRRM himself wastes no time showing us what happens at Storm's End. Partly that's because there's no POV character there, but more importantly it's because nothing happens there. Mace simply disappears from the story for a while. The show won't bother dramatizing such an event. We know that Cersei doesn't take the Iron Bank nearly as seriously as she should, so sending Mace Tyrell to Braavos serves almost exactly the same purpose that sending him to Storm's End does: it gives him a superficially important task that she really sees as an excuse to get him out of her way.

At least from my point of view, this is an extremely logical and economical change for Game of Thrones to make. They hired an experienced and respected actor to play Mace Tyrell in Roger Ashton-Griffiths. If they're going to keep paying him, they should give him things to do. And Harys Swyft is, to put it bluntly, a far cry from being a memorable or essential character. I'm sure that he has his fans (Swyfties?), but if I were to make a list of characters from AFFC and ADWD that I would like to see Game of Thrones introduce, Harys Swyft isn't cracking the Top 100.

Sending Mace Tyrell to Braavos as an emissary to the Iron Bank serves the purposes of Cersei's story very effectively. It gets him out of King's Landing from several episodes so that Cersei can move against Margaery. He can return to King's Landing at the end of the season after Cersei and Margaery are both brought up on charges by the Faith - just like he does in the books. I suppose that there's a remote possibility that he could be killed off (a fate that seems likely to befall Meryn Trant while he's in Braavos). But I don't believe that he will be.