Tycho and mace in bravos! [book spoilers]

[Janicia]

The biggest issue with this whole conversation at this point is that we don't know how the negotiations between the Iron Bank and the throne play out in either the books or the show. So we're arguing about that the show may be doing and trying to compare that to what may happen in book 6.

In both show and book, the negotiations will probably be impacted by other events - Cersei's and Margery's arrests, Arya killing somebody in the entourage, and Dornish / Aegon activities all come to mind. So whatever bookCersei and showCersei and bookIB and showIB go into the negotiations wanting and expecting, things will go haywire before the negotiations conclude.

Zaphodbrx, you also seem to be assuming much faster and more accurate communication than you should.

[igrewupinKL]

@FreeParking, I think waiting years to address the issue is being patient for a bank. and trekking through heavy snow was the only way to speak to Stannis directly, and they wouldn't speak to Selyse so Tycho had to go into a warzone if he felt Stannis was his best chance of getting paid back the money the crown owes. But thanks for your snarky comment. Trekking through heavy snow is not being patient, its being persistent, and i don't know what that had to do with my point.

I can see it now, Cersei tells her worries to Mace about the IBOB debt. Mace gets the brilliant idea to use some Tyrell gold since Margery is going to be queen and they share the crown right? It's brilliant but the Tyrells aren't that stupid, just like book Cersei wasn't stupid enough to ask him to go. But this is the show, and Mace is stupid, so it make sense right ? (i think Mace is putting on the act in the show but that might be just me).

I digress. i'm arguing for the sake of argument. I guess the IBOB will continue to fund the Lannisters/Tyrells instead of funding Stannis, until things catch up to the books.

BTW if the IBOB knew Cersei, they wouldn't fund Stannis as a threat to her. They would fund the Ironborn. She barely spares a thought for Stannis in AFFC and cares less about the north. But they don't know her, they haven't sent anyone to KL so i guess you could argue it makes sense.

[Dragon in the North]

[Janicia]

BTW if the IBOB knew Cersei, they wouldn't fund Stannis as a threat to her. They would fund the Ironborn. She barely spares a thought for Stannis in AFFC and cares less about the north. But they don't know her, they haven't sent anyone to KL so i guess you could argue it makes sense.

At what point in the show has Cersei cared at all about the Ironborn? She made a joke when Balon crowned himself. Have we seen her think about it since?

But Stannis' attack on Kings Landing and Cersei's near murder/suicide with Tommen was probably the scariest day of her life. Cersei brought it up in 4x10 to Tywin as her strongest example of being pushed to her limits. We have also seen Cersei softening toward Tyrion (pre-Joffrey's death) when he brought up saving Kings Landing from Stannis. In early season 4 when Jaime and Cersei were close, Jaime was reminding Joffrey that the war wasn't won while Stannis lived.

We don't have a ton of information about which non-Lannister Cersei fears the most in the show, but Stannis is a much better bet than Balon. On the show, the Ironborn seem to think that 50 soldiers is a huge number and they seem to keel over dead if you leave them alone in a castle for a few months. They haven't yet been presented as a remotely credible threat to the Lannisters.

[zaphodbrx]

The biggest issue with this whole conversation at this point is that we don't know how the negotiations between the Iron Bank and the throne play out in either the books or the show. So we're arguing about that the show may be doing and trying to compare that to what may happen in book 6.

Agreed.

It would be a lot different IF it was actually explained what kind of deal the IB made with Stannis and WHY. Instead we got a stupid sexposition scene that explained nothing. The Stannis/IB scenes were okay.. but lets not pretend that the IB backing Stannis at that point makes any kind of sense.. no matter what Bryan Cogman says, it didnt come out that way in the show.

I think the larger problem is that they have systematically set out to destroy Stannis' character. Apart from the nonsense of infidel burning ( for no apparent purpose either ), Stannis doesn't show any inclination to go to the Wall ( and he didn't want to either, he only goes because Melisandre ordered him to ). Infact in ep. 3, he wants to take advantage of Joffrey's death to sail for King's Landing! And when he gets money and mercenaries from the IB, THEN he decides fck that, I'm going to the wall. Yeah.

You can try to make sense of these internal contradictions but honestly destroying the Stannis arc has had repercussions on other things as well. Iron bankers look kind of stupid ( as explained ), and also Jon Snow storyline was given THREE filler plotlines ( Craster Keep, Mole's Town, Jon vs Alliser ) just to kill time until episode 9. The episode 9 thing really screwed both Jon Snow and Stannis big time.

[Janicia]

Agreed.

It would be a lot different IF it was actually explained what kind of deal the IB made with Stannis and WHY. Instead we got a stupid sexposition scene that explained nothing. The Stannis/IB scenes were okay.. but lets not pretend that the IB backing Stannis at that point makes any kind of sense.. no matter what Bryan Cogman says, it didnt come out that way in the show.

I think the larger problem is that they have systematically set out to destroy Stannis' character. Apart from the nonsense of infidel burning ( for no apparent purpose either ), Stannis doesn't show any inclination to go to the Wall ( and he didn't want to either, he only goes because Melisandre ordered him to ). Infact in ep. 3, he wants to take advantage of Joffrey's death to sail for King's Landing! And when he gets money and mercenaries from the IB, THEN he decides fck that, I'm going to the wall. Yeah.

You can try to make sense of these internal contradictions but honestly destroying the Stannis arc has had repercussions on other things as well. Iron bankers look kind of stupid ( as explained ), and also Jon Snow storyline was given THREE filler plotlines ( Craster Keep, Mole's Town, Jon vs Alliser ) just to kill time until episode 9. The episode 9 thing really screwed both Jon Snow and Stannis big time.

GRRM frequently leaves important plot points unexplained in one book and then circles back to provide more information later. And sometimes he leaves the whole thing ambiguous forever. That storytelling style is one that the show doesn't use nearly as often as GRRM does, but it is a completely legitimate choice for an adaptation of ASOIAF to use. We know that season 5 will have more Stannis material and more Iron Bank material. The show will answer some of the questions then that were left hanging in season 4. I suspect that they left the details of the Stannis / Iron Bank deal ambiguous to lend drama to the Cersei / Iron Bank negotiations in season 5.

The Iron Bank sending Tycho to wander through the North with a tiny escort never made any sense to me. It is a really goofy thing to send one guy to track down Stannis and beg him to take your money while he's on a death march in winter. By the time the aid from the Iron Bank arrives, Stannis has a good chance of being dead and even if he survives, his army has suffered grievously in the storm and is probably trapped at Winterfell for years. For all that you argue that Stannis isn't a good investment at this point in the show, he's a worse investment when the Iron Bank seeks him out in the books. When both stories are told and we can judge them properly, I think there is a good chance that the Iron Bank subplot makes more sense in the show than in the books.

The show has not set out to systematically destroy Stannis' character. Stannis hasn't had much screen time because he didn't do much in the first three books besides killing Renly. I also think a lot of the backlash at the show's portrayal of Stannis is due to people imagining a more likable character than was written. Stannis is a sour, frequently passive character. He says funny/awesome things once in a while, not constantly. He is heavily influenced by Melissandre and Davos when they're around.

[igrewupinKL]

At what point in the show has Cersei cared at all about the Ironborn? She made a joke when Balon crowned himself. Have we seen her think about it since?

But Stannis' attack on Kings Landing and Cersei's near murder/suicide with Tommen was probably the scariest day of her life. Cersei brought it up in 4x10 to Tywin as her strongest example of being pushed to her limits. We have also seen Cersei softening toward Tyrion (pre-Joffrey's death) when he brought up saving Kings Landing from Stannis. In early season 4 when Jaime and Cersei were close, Jaime was reminding Joffrey that the war wasn't won while Stannis lived.

We don't have a ton of information about which non-Lannister Cersei fears the most in the show, but Stannis is a much better bet than Balon. On the show, the Ironborn seem to think that 50 soldiers is a huge number and they seem to keel over dead if you leave them alone in a castle for a few months. They haven't yet been presented as a remotely credible threat to the Lannisters.

The future season is based on AFFC/ADWD material. In those books, Cersei see the Ironborn as more of a threat because they are attacking south at the Reach and Oldtown. Stannis is up north and has that whole army to deal with, after his defeat on the blackwater, she sees him incapable and a non-threat. Because Cersei is crazy and doesn't think about things. You're right the ironborn have not been done justice on the show. They look weak, because of lack of explanation.

[Janicia]

The future season is based on AFFC/ADWD material. In those books, Cersei see the Ironborn as more of a threat because they are attacking south at the Reach and Oldtown. Stannis is up north and has that whole army to deal with, after his defeat on the blackwater, she sees him incapable and a non-threat. Because Cersei is crazy and doesn't think about things. You're right the ironborn have not been done justice on the show. They look weak, because of lack of explanation.

If Cersei doesn't think things through, she is even more likely to focus her hatred on the enemy that almost killed her rather than the enemy that keeps attacking her other enemies while leaving her alone.

Maybe the Ironborn attack the Reach and Oldtown in the show, maybe not. I think the show has deliberately and fairly consistently downsized the Ironborn military capabilities. I don't think it is a lack of explanation, instead the Ironborn in the show simply do not have the manpower or organization to pose a real land threat. Even in the books, the Ironborn aren't all that much of a threat unless they get help from magic. And if they do get help from magic, the show can just boost the magic a bit to make up for underpowering the Ironborn military.

[messem]

Maybe the Ironborn attack the Reach and Oldtown in the show, maybe not. I think the show has deliberately and fairly consistently downsized the Ironborn military capabilities. I don't think it is a lack of explanation, instead the Ironborn in the show simply do not have the manpower or organization to pose a real land threat. Even in the books, the Ironborn aren't all that much of a threat unless they get help from magic.

I've never got the Ironborn threat. I was always under the impression that GRRM miscalculated heavily. They do have neither the manpower nor the ships to create a real threat under normal circumstances. They can wreak havoc in poorly protected villages. When the Redwyne fleet arrives it should end quickly.

[igrewupinKL]

If Cersei doesn't think things through, she is even more likely to focus her hatred on the enemy that almost killed her rather than the enemy that keeps attacking her other enemies while leaving her alone.

Maybe the Ironborn attack the Reach and Oldtown in the show, maybe not. I think the show has deliberately and fairly consistently downsized the Ironborn military capabilities. I don't think it is a lack of explanation, instead the Ironborn in the show simply do not have the manpower or organization to pose a real land threat. Even in the books, the Ironborn aren't all that much of a threat unless they get help from magic. And if they do get help from magic, the show can just boost the magic a bit to make up for underpowering the Ironborn military.

um no, the ironborn don't need magic. I'm re-reading AFFC at the moment and the ironborn have the biggest fleet in westeros, they could destroy anyone on the water. They are also pretty tough fighters and Victarion himself could take out more people than the average good swordsman in mainland westeros. Victarion's iron fleet consists of 93 ships alone, imagine the whole ironborn army? its downplayed on the show HEAPS. Plus Euron is sadistic, but he is capable of strategy, i would say, more so than Cersei. So yeh, the Ironborn are a threat even is Cersei thinks she is better than everyone.

And i'm not sure if i'm phrasing it properly but, Cersei thinks she doesn't need to deal with Stannis, she doesn't spare much of a thought to him. We get her POV so i'm not guessing at her thought, its on the paper....

[Janicia]

um no, the ironborn don't need magic. I'm re-reading AFFC at the moment and the ironborn have the biggest fleet in westeros, they could destroy anyone on the water. They are also pretty tough fighters and Victarion himself could take out more people than the average good swordsman in mainland westeros. Victarion's iron fleet consists of 93 ships alone, imagine the whole ironborn army? its downplayed on the show HEAPS. Plus Euron is sadistic, but he is capable of strategy, i would say, more so than Cersei. So yeh, the Ironborn are a threat even is Cersei thinks she is better than everyone.

And i'm not sure if i'm phrasing it properly but, Cersei thinks she doesn't need to deal with Stannis, she doesn't spare much of a thought to him. We get her POV so i'm not guessing at her thought, its on the paper....

Wasn't Victarion's fleet the bulk of the Ironborn ships, and he lost two thirds of them at sea? After facing the navy blockading Mereen and sailing back for Westeros, how many will he have left? And unless Euron skedaddles, the wrath of the Reach will hit his forces there soon.

We've never seen the Ironborn face a real army in the books. They've picked soft targets - smallish poorly defended castles near the sea. I totally believe that they could burn Oldtown or go after a target within the city in a quick, focused assault, but it seems like a stretch that they could actually take over the city and control it.

But more relevantly, we're arguing about whether it is plausible that the Iron Bank might give Stannis a small loan as a threat to the Lannisters. You're arguing that if the bank wants to make that threat, they should have given the gold to Balon rather than to Stannis. I disagree. Stannis sought the Iron Bank out and promised to repay all debts if he became the king of Westeros (and as king, Stannis would be able to raise taxes and could pay the debts). Balon has no plan to become the king of Westeros (he wants independence), has not sought the Iron Bank out, and has not promised to repay debts. Further, Stannis is known to be a man of his word. Balon's reputation is that of a mad pirate. The Iron Bank probably hates pirates as much as they hate anything. Balon is completely unsuitable to them, and a threat that they'd give Balon money so that he would depose the Lannisters would never be taken seriously. Even if the the Iron Bank gave Balon money, which they would never do, Balon isn't even trying to depose the Lannisters.

And all that is before we get back to the fact that the Ironborn under Balon are not a serious military force in the show and the Lannisters have a lot more reason to hate and fear Stannis.

[Colonel Green]

Wasn't Victarion's fleet the bulk of the Ironborn ships, and he lost two thirds of them at sea? After facing the navy blockading Mereen and sailing back for Westeros, how many will he have left? And unless Euron skedaddles, the wrath of the Reach will hit his forces there soon.

Victarion has the Iron Fleet, which is the Ironborn's heavy warships. Euron's force in the Reach area is comprised mainly of a huge body of smaller longships. Under ordinary conditions, the Redwyne fleet's huge war galleys should easily overmatch them. Whether GRRM throws them a plot anchor remains to be seen.

[FreeParking]

The future season is based on AFFC/ADWD material. In those books, Cersei see the Ironborn as more of a threat because they are attacking south at the Reach and Oldtown. Stannis is up north and has that whole army to deal with, after his defeat on the blackwater, she sees him incapable and a non-threat. Because Cersei is crazy and doesn't think about things. You're right the ironborn have not been done justice on the show. They look weak, because of lack of explanation.

Actually I don't recall Cersei thinking the Ironborn are a threat in the books. They attack the Reach and she claims that they must be in league with Stannis. Pycelle says that seems unlikely, but she ignores him. The Tyrells want to use their fleet to deal with the Ironborn, but it is at Dragonstone at the time. That is why Loras volunteers to take the castle, so it will free up their fleet. Cersei is just doing this to weaken the Tyrells in any way she can. I don't get the sense that she views either Stannis of the Ironborn as threats. Just problems that the Boltons and Tyrells have to worry about.

[igrewupinKL]

Actually I don't recall Cersei thinking the Ironborn are a threat in the books. They attack the Reach and she claims that they must be in league with Stannis. Pycelle says that seems unlikely, but she ignores him. The Tyrells want to use their fleet to deal with the Ironborn, but it is at Dragonstone at the time. That is why Loras volunteers to take the castle, so it will free up their fleet. Cersei is just doing this to weaken the Tyrells in any way she can. I don't get the sense that she views either Stannis of the Ironborn as threats. Just problems that the Boltons and Tyrells have to worry about.

Yeh fair enough. I think at this stage Cersei views anyone other than her and Tommen as a threat, but believes that she is better than them and she can't be defeated. So you're right that she is not at all phased by Stannis and Euron (because she thinks she is better than them) and delegates the Tyrells and Boltons to deal with them. What i was saying is that she spares more of a thought to the Greyjoys than Stannis. Her main concern are the Tyrells which i am sure will lead to her downfall.

Janicia In AFFC Euron actually does claim his aim is to conquer the world, starting with all of westeros, including the Iron Throne. So yes he is a threat. Balon has nothing to really do with it in the show because he is going to die soon, but since he is still alive at the moment, yes the bank would go to Stannis...BUT Stannis went to them. So it kind've defeats the purpose of any argument. As someone mentioned, the Iron Bank don't like pirates and so would never go to the ironborn anyway.

[FreeParking]

Yeh fair enough. I think at this stage Cersei views anyone other than her and Tommen as a threat, but believes that she is better than them and she can't be defeated. So you're right that she is not at all phased by Stannis and Euron (because she thinks she is better than them) and delegates the Tyrells and Boltons to deal with them. What i was saying is that she spares more of a thought to the Greyjoys than Stannis. Her main concern are the Tyrells which i am sure will lead to her downfall.

Agreed that she sees the Tyrells as enemy number one, which is the reason why she pays any attention to the Greyjoys at all. I just reread that section and she does think that if they attack the Arbor that she might run out of wine, so there is that at least. :D

[igrewupinKL]

Agreed that she sees the Tyrells as enemy number one, which is the reason why she pays any attention to the Greyjoys at all. I just reread that section and she does think that if they attack the Arbor that she might run out of wine, so there is that at least. :D

Cersei's thoughts make me want to do this :bang: .It should be kinda sad, but its actually hilarious

[Janicia]

Janicia In AFFC Euron actually does claim his aim is to conquer the world, starting with all of westeros, including the Iron Throne. So yes he is a threat. Balon has nothing to really do with it in the show because he is going to die soon, but since he is still alive at the moment, yes the bank would go to Stannis...BUT Stannis went to them. So it kind've defeats the purpose of any argument. As someone mentioned, the Iron Bank don't like pirates and so would never go to the ironborn anyway.

We were discussing tactics that the Iron Bank might use to try to Cersei to pay them back. Neither the Iron Bank nor Cersei are aware of Euron's AFFC claim; it is completely irrelevant.

Euron is one of the least trustworthy people in the series. But if he actually has a plan to conquer the world, it involves magic. If the Iron Islanders ever take center stage in the story, it won't be on account of their overwhelming military force. I don't think the show's choice to depict the Iron Islands as militarily weak screws up the Iron Islands endgame.

[ivosan]

I'm ok with Meryn Trant going to Braavos and being victim of Arya instead of Dareon.

Killing a NW for deserting is something a little out of character even for a troubled soul like Arya.
Meryn Trant is already on her list for killing Syrio Forel.

I guess Sam will not stop in Braavos then. I didn't like his encounter with Arya/Cat in Braavos. It seemed as cheesy as some of the D&D adaptations.

Sam can travel directly to the citadel, while Aemon dies during the trip.

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About Mace going to the Iron Bank..., probably then he will learn that the Lannister's gold mines are dry.

[FalseKnight]

Sopranos has a tonne of characters introduced with ease, well established and developed. It's HBO too so there's clearly a budget which GOT can exploit. And no it does lose its meaning kinda. The fact that she doesn't recognise him in the books is ruined now. She recognised him as Theon and attempted to bring him home. In the books she assumed him to be dead. And well we got that god awful 'you took too long' line which made no sense in the show but was poignant in the books. We had jaime and cersei's relationship ruined and that god awful rape scene. We had him meeting with Tyrion which sabotaged their falling out later on. Etcetera Ectera

The Sopranos never had as many characters as GoT, and that show needed no CGI, so no there is not clearly a budget to exploit. We can't really assess whether changes robbed the show of meaning until we have the next two books.

[Colonel Green]

Killing a NW for deserting is something a little out of character even for a troubled soul like Arya.

Why? Arya's dad did that on the regular. While Arya isn't acting in a strictly judicial capacity, of course, it flows from her sense of justice, as she understands it.