Ser Frasier of House Crane Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I feel this thread is kinda trollish but whatever. I think we can like the IB without being labelled "rape apologists" or anything like that. The IB are nothing but the product of an old culture that never evolved. That's why their chapters are interesting, because it's a contrast to "civilized" Westeros, which in reality, isn't any better. Ah, they aren't like the IB, who pillage or kidnap women, but their soldiers are ok with raping and pill-- oh, wait! I personally like Victarion. He might being called "dumb" but I think he has his own way to be smart. And he can't act different from what he has taught his whole life, but he has shown to have some standards. I can understand why he hates Euron and I hope he gets his revenge. I don't even think Victarion is dumb. He's no Rhodes scholar, sure, but I think that his biggest virtue is his undying loyalty, which I think clouds a lot of his judgment. The only times people seem to intimate he ain't smart is when Asha jokes about his toe-counting and when he gets called a fool because of his Dothraki Sea moment. But Vic grew up in a society where fancy book-larnin' was for chumps, so who can blame him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The Greyjoys are indeed a magnificiently messed up bunch. But they've had their time at the helm. We tried their return to Old Way policy, and it hasn't worked out all that well. It's time for new management. This message sponsored by Rodrik Harlaw for Seastone chair 301. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lopsang Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 I don't even think Victarion is dumb. He's no Rhodes scholar, sure, but I think that his biggest virtue is his undying loyalty, which I think clouds a lot of his judgment. The only times people seem to intimate he ain't smart is when Asha jokes about his toe-counting and when he gets called a fool because of his Dothraki Sea moment. But Vic grew up in a society where fancy book-larnin' was for chumps, so who can blame him? I can blame him. I'd like to mention that one dude so deeply notorious for reading that it becomes his namesake - the Reader - is Ironborn. Vic has no excuse. As for Vic being undyingly loyal, a pox on your misconceptions. Vic is far from "undyingly loyal"; he broods about Euron, his king, basically every moment of his life. As for his supposed loyalty being some sort of "cloud" on his "judgment', I don't see how it would interfere. If your point is that his loyalty gets in the way of his wits, that just doesn't make sense, I don't see any connection. There are other characters to laud for their undying loyalty besides Vic anyway, including Davos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The Greyjoys are indeed a magnificiently messed up bunch. But they've had their time at the helm. We tried their return to Old Way policy, and it hasn't worked out all that well. It's time for new management. This message sponsored by Rodrik Harlaw for Seastone chair 301. The hell with the Seafoam Chair, the Reader deserves the Iron Throne itself, with Ellaria Sand as his Queen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The hell with the Seafoam Chair, the Reader deserves the Iron Throne itself, with Ellaria Sand as his Queen No no no, that monstrosity will be sunk to the deepest depths of the sea. But sure, a Westeros under the Seastone Chair doesn't sound too bad, nor does Ellaria Sand as his queen. Just hope he doesn't go and get her knocked up, wouldn't want anything to get in the way of Ser Harras following him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Vinegar Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The hell with the Seafoam Chair, the Reader deserves the Iron Throne itself, with Ellaria Sand as his Queen Even I wouldn't be opposed to that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Do you really like Theon? That's got to be sarcasm. Theon is a butchering villain who nearly killed the child of Rodrick Cassel, the innocent daughter of a man he grew up with and who taught him things about life. Both of their frozen bodies are feasting grounds for graveworms now with all the rest of the people of Winterfell like Old Nan, Maester Luwin, and almost Bran and Rickon because of the things he did. He thinks he's great and that everybody else is below him. He treats women like objects and doesn't mind turning against the people who were effectively his family for personal gain. He might have a saving grace if his experiences with the Boltons humble him down enough, and he seems to express some regret at betraying Robb, but it's not the foremost thing on his mind and when he gets delivered to Stannis it seems like he goes back to his old self. Imagine what would have happened if the Ironborn never invaded the North and if Winterfell never fell. RObb may have been way more successful in his campaigns. Maybe Catelyn wouldn't have freed Jaime. Gosh, imagine all the things that could have happened. Theon sucks.if Theon is a "butchering villain" then everyone in this book series is! I don't think he would have killed Beth Cassel, unlike Ned who WOULD have killed Theon, Theon was in the same position as beth for 10 years, or don't you remember? why aren't you opposed to that? (oh right, they're the starks, they can do no wrong!) Theon did not kill any of the people you mentioned, he was responsible for the death of 6 people, when not counting the ones who died in battle (of which 1 ironborn) Ramsay was the one who killed the ones you mentioned, and you can't put that on Theon in any way (go ahead and try and reveal to us your double standers, oh wait, you already have...) "he thinks he's great and everyone else is below him" euhm... are we talking about the same book series here, because I thought we were talking about the guy who's so insecure that he tries to hide it behind a mask of arrogance (and fails)."he treats women like objects" again... what book are you reading ? cause I sure as hell thought we were reading a book in which women are treated as objects by pretty much everyone... you can only chose to use it against Theon and not against against the others."doesn't mind turning against the people who were effectively his family for personal gain" LOL.... ok you defenitly read a different book from me! I read the one where he was a prisoner of the starks for half his life and the only one that treated him like family was Robb. the other starks were indifferent or disliked him, same goes for the people of winterfell. they were not even close to his family. and personal gain ? really? he wanted acceptance, i'm sure you wouldn't want that if you didn't have it right? you'd be totally fine all alone in the world judged by everyone arround you as a "weakling" or "a greyjoy so by default bad" yeah, you'd be totally fine..."when he gets delivered to Stannis it seems like he goes back to his old self." ever considered rereading his chapters? he doesn't "go back to his old self" the entire point of theon's arc is that he doesn't know who he is and he's finding out. he pretends to be someone else for most of his life, when he is with stannis he is finally becoming the real Theon. wait... wait a minute, so Robb, according to you is better then Theon. but what about all the deaths of innocent people he's responsible for? the ammount is waaaaaaaay bigger then that of Theon but that's all fine. i'm not against robb at all, I rather like him, but if you think Robb is great you have no buisness judging Theon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SacredOrderOfGreenMen Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 "Famed for their skills in navigation, archery, and lovemaking." "And failed rebellions."------"She is our guest." "I thought she was our prisoner?" "Are the two mutually exclusive in your experience?" Maester Luwin is such a troll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steelborn Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 This thread is appreciated by me. :cheers: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damp Hair - The Prophet Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 @Lopsang: Since about half the posts here are yours (and demonstrate a grievous misreading of the Greyjoys & Vic & Theon in particular, as well as a Stark/Robb lens that blurs your thinking), mayhaps you should create a "Greyjoy Hate" thread and have fun over there. Some of us like the ironborn and can appreciate them as literary creations, it'd be nice if we had one single fun thread to share our mutual like of same w/o the inevitable righteous indignation of Starkist crybabying buzzkills invading the place telling us sloppily what horrible people are we and the fictional characters we enjoy reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lopsang Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 @Lopsang: Since about half the posts here are yours (and demonstrate a grievous misreading of the Greyjoys & Vic & Theon in particular, as well as a Stark/Robb lens that blurs your thinking), mayhaps you should create a "Greyjoy Hate" thread and have fun over there. Some of us like the ironborn and can appreciate them as literary creations, it'd be nice if we had one single fun thread to share our mutual like of same w/o the inevitable righteous indignation of Starkist crybabying buzzkills invading the place telling us sloppily what horrible people are we and the fictional characters we enjoy reading. Shoot, man. I'm not trying to attack you guys. Attack the idea, not the person. No need to talk down to anybody. I have made a point to say that I am not disagreeing with the fact that the IB are bad literary creations. They're fun to read, they're cool, and well-written. I just disagree when people sympathize with them or don't see them for the pretty evil people they are. That being said, a lot of people in the book are pretty evil. Anyway, I'm genuinely curious as to how I've misread the IB chapters. There's a possibility my thinking is warped by some Stark bias, but I wonder how that is. All I'm saying in this thread is that nobody should look up to/want to be/sympathize with the brutal, backwards people who are IB. But all in all, I am not trying to be a killjoy. I think it's fine for people to voice their opinions, even if they think Theon is a great saint and should sit the Iron Throne - but this is also a forum, a place for discussion - people should be allowed to voice their opinions without getting shot down, even if they are contrary to most people in the thread. Unless, of course, that person is being disruptive/breaking the ToS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Shoot, man. I'm not trying to attack you guys. Attack the idea, not the person. No need to talk down to anybody. I have made a point to say that I am not disagreeing with the fact that the IB are bad literary creations. They're fun to read, they're cool, and well-written. I just disagree when people sympathize with them or don't see them for the pretty evil people they are. That being said, a lot of people in the book are pretty evil. Anyway, I'm genuinely curious as to how I've misread the IB chapters. There's a possibility my thinking is warped by some Stark bias, but I wonder how that is. All I'm saying in this thread is that nobody should look up to/want to be/sympathize with the brutal, backwards people who are IB. But all in all, I am not trying to be a killjoy. I think it's fine for people to voice their opinions, even if they think Theon is a great saint and should sit the Iron Throne - but this is also a forum, a place for discussion - people should be allowed to voice their opinions without getting shot down, even if they are contrary to most people in the thread. Unless, of course, that person is being disruptive/breaking the ToS. yes and in my opinion everyone should have sympathy for at least Theon, and i'm curious how it's even possible if you don't... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lopsang Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 if Theon is a "butchering villain" then everyone in this book series is! I don't think he would have killed Beth Cassel, unlike Ned who WOULD have killed Theon, Theon was in the same position as beth for 10 years, or don't you remember? why aren't you opposed to that? (oh right, they're the starks, they can do no wrong!) By this point in the book, Theon had killed Mikken and the priest and the other innocents and he'd taken out anybody who opposed him and he'd held hostage all the important people and caused general destruction and treachery and was pretty much a full-blooded badguy. I don't see any reason why he wouldn't have killed Beth, is there any good reason you can think of? Is it really possible to defend a guy who puts a kid on a noose so he can remain the Lord of Winterfell a little longer? I didn't say I wasn't opposed to Ned possibly killing Theon. Theon wasn't in exactly the same position as Beth - he was raised as family and well-treated and highborn and never in danger of being harmed. Beth was on a noose. However, you still conflate my criticisms of Theon with defending the Starks - I am not a supporting every little thing the Starks have done, nor the wardship of Theon, etc. My only purpose is to argue that Theon is pretty much a cold-blooded villain. Theon did not kill any of the people you mentioned, he was responsible for the death of 6 people, when not counting the ones who died in battle (of which 1 ironborn) Ramsay was the one who killed the ones you mentioned, and you can't put that on Theon in any way (go ahead and try and reveal to us your double standers, oh wait, you already have...) "he thinks he's great and everyone else is below him" euhm... are we talking about the same book series here, because I thought we were talking about the guy who's so insecure that he tries to hide it behind a mask of arrogance (and fails). "he treats women like objects" again... what book are you reading ? cause I sure as hell thought we were reading a book in which women are treated as objects by pretty much everyone... you can only chose to use it against Theon and not against against the others. If it weren't for Theon, Ramsay would have been unlikely to attack Winterfell, or take it supposing that he had. Ramsay is even worse than Theon, but Theon enabled this all to happen. If he hadn't ever betrayed Robb, Winterfell would have been safe and sound and the Boltons would have had to find something else to do, at least for a while. He killed innocents directly, and enabled the killings of more via his greed and Ramsay's attack. The bottom line, though, is that he did kill innocents, people he grew up with, oppressed the survivors, and consequently enabled the ruin of Winterfell/the North. That's never right, and people who do that shouldn't be role models. He does think he is better than everyone - as soon as he gets to Pyke, he is already brooding about how he is the most qualified to sit the Seastone chair and how he might have to betray his uncles/Asha/whoever else. He is certainly not a humble character. He may be more or less conceited than some, but he's certainly conceited. He is certainly insecure as well, but I'm not sure how that justifies any of his actions. You're right that most people in these books objectify women, I am just pointing out my opinion that Theon is one of the worst when it comes to misogyny in the books. Regardless, it's not alright to be misogynistic just because everybody else is. I wasn't trying to use it only against Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lopsang Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 "doesn't mind turning against the people who were effectively his family for personal gain" LOL.... ok you defenitly read a different book from me! I read the one where he was a prisoner of the starks for half his life and the only one that treated him like family was Robb. the other starks were indifferent or disliked him, same goes for the people of winterfell. they were not even close to his family. and personal gain ? really? he wanted acceptance, i'm sure you wouldn't want that if you didn't have it right? you'd be totally fine all alone in the world judged by everyone arround you as a "weakling" or "a greyjoy so by default bad" yeah, you'd be totally fine... "when he gets delivered to Stannis it seems like he goes back to his old self." ever considered rereading his chapters? he doesn't "go back to his old self" the entire point of theon's arc is that he doesn't know who he is and he's finding out. he pretends to be someone else for most of his life, when he is with stannis he is finally becoming the real Theon. wait... wait a minute, so Robb, according to you is better then Theon. but what about all the deaths of innocent people he's responsible for? the ammount is waaaaaaaay bigger then that of Theon but that's all fine. i'm not against robb at all, I rather like him, but if you think Robb is great you have no buisness judging Theon... Sorry for double-posting; I don't know how to break down a big quote into smaller little pieces to respond to without wiping out all my previous content. Be careful - you're extrapolating the idea that Theon was treated indifferently/poorly by the Starks THROUGH his POV. Every narrator is biased, keep that in mind when you are reading. Theon is highborn, and just by being alive he already can live a way way better life than most people in this feudal society. Theon gets it good relative to all the peasants and lowborn people in the book. That aside, he still may have not been treated well by the Starks, disregarding possible bias/self-fulfilling prophecy by not liking them from day 1. But that is not justification for him later acting so cruel towards them or towards people in general. I know he has reasons for acting the way he did and he has reasons for his betrayal - but reasons alone do not justify cruelty. A lot of evil people have had reasons for doing what they did, but it's not a saving grace. He did what he did. I am sure I would have wanted approval and acceptance too - I am not blaming Theon for wanting that, everybody does - but just because you want acceptance doesn't mean you have to do evil things as a result. He may indeed have changed. I hope he has. But this is all speculation, he may or may not have changed. I'm thinking that Stannis is dead and probably Theon too anyway. Robb and Theon are not the same, they are not a monolith. When did Robb kill innocents? I don't recall any time where his army killed innocent people. I am not going to get into dynamics about whether or not Robb is moral or not - he may or may not be - but I don't think anything he did is comparable to what Theon did. If there was collateral damage/pillaging of things by the Starks then I don't think any of that happened in the hands of Robb's personal army or by his personal orders. Whether Robb is bad or good is irrelevant though, I just think Theon is a terrible person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Reaver Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Shoot, man. I'm not trying to attack you guys. Attack the idea, not the person. No need to talk down to anybody. I have made a point to say that I am not disagreeing with the fact that the IB are bad literary creations. They're fun to read, they're cool, and well-written. I just disagree when people sympathize with them or don't see them for the pretty evil people they are. That being said, a lot of people in the book are pretty evil. Anyway, I'm genuinely curious as to how I've misread the IB chapters. There's a possibility my thinking is warped by some Stark bias, but I wonder how that is. All I'm saying in this thread is that nobody should look up to/want to be/sympathize with the brutal, backwards people who are IB. First mistake: Generalizing the Ironborn. We've seen what, some ten characters from the entire place, and you choose to make statements like "pretty evil people". If you can't see the folly in this, you deserve to be talked down to. Secondly: Cultural bias. The Ironborn do nothing the greenlanders don't do just as much themselves. GRRM is in fact, quite explicit in this. The only difference is that they try to hide behind words like "war" and "honor", when in reality they pillage and rape just as much as anyone, in fact more if you consider forced marriages. Again, calling one culture "evil" as a result of this cultural bias, shows you've taken a very biased reading of the books, most likely due to the fact the Ironborn dare to attack the Starks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lopsang Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 First mistake: Generalizing the Ironborn. We've seen what, some ten characters from the entire place, and you choose to make statements like "pretty evil people". If you can't see the folly in this, you deserve to be talked down to. Secondly: Cultural bias. The Ironborn do nothing the greenlanders don't do just as much themselves. GRRM is in fact, quite explicit in this. The only difference is that they try to hide behind words like "war" and "honor", when in reality they pillage and rape just as much as anyone, in fact more if you consider forced marriages. Again, calling one culture "evil" as a result of this cultural bias, shows you've taken a very biased reading of the books, most likely due to the fact the Ironborn dare to attack the Starks. You're making a lot of assumptions about me/my positions. And it is never okay to talk down to people, even if they have bad ideas. Fight what you think are my bad ideas with your good ideas if you want to, but personal attacks and being condescending are really unnecessary. You're right that it isn't necessarily fair to judge a whole society based on 10 people or so, but there is more knowledge about the IB than from just those 10 people. You get a pretty good insight into how the IB work, do you not? There are things to be desired, sure, but the Old Way is repeated time and time again in the novels and it is basically what the IB try to live up to. The Old Ways are brutal and cold and callous and involve a lot of killing and stealing etc and I am against that. Everybody has a very biased reading of the books. That's not a secret. I don't dislike the IB because they attacked the Starks - if you go back and look at my other posts I list reasons why I don't like them. I agree that the greenlanders are not much better than the IB. They do do basically the same stuff. But that's not a saving grace for the IB. Judge Hitler based on what Stalin did, and you can say that Hitler wasn't that bad - but I am judging what Hitler (the IB) did on what Hitler (the IB) did. I'm not defending greenlanders or anybody else, I am rather just attacking the Ironborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 The Ironborn are pretty cool people imho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damp Hair - The Prophet Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 BLA BLA BLA Your micharacterization of Vic as an ambitious person was one. Your miccharacterization of Theon as an alltogether Evil & terrible person was another (plus your thinking that he and Stannis are already dead). We all have out preferences for certain houses and their members and that's all fine. But I refuse to lower myself and discuss realistically positions which are not. Like Lord Reaper put it, if the things you say make no sense, I will call them nonsense. Is it so bad to say a true thing is true? Again, I suggest you make a "Greyjoy/Ironborn Hate" threat where you and your fellows can congregate. We fans of Theon, Vic and/or the Ironborn in general are very VERY accustomed to not being able to talk about them we favor w/o greenlanders barging into the thread to gripe. I was looking forward to this thread being a place we might have to share our fandom w/o having to explain and defend ourselves and constantly derail the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Do you like the older or the younger Greyjoy generation more? I prefer the older (Euron, Victarion, Aeron). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Drowned Prophet Posted September 1, 2014 Share Posted September 1, 2014 Do you like the older or the younger Greyjoy generation more? I prefer the older (Euron, Victarion, Aeron). Same!!! I love Euron, Victarion and Aeron (three of my favourite characters). I must admit that I do like Asha a lot too (she is very funny) and I also like Theon. But yes, the Greyjoy 'Nuncles' are the best!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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