8 common misconceptions about Stannis (Very long)

[Game Of Thrones]

8 Common misconceptions about Stannis Baratheon

1. Stannis is insanely stubborn.

Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He'll break before he bends.

This Donal Noye quote is occasionally held as gospel by some posters, who think it proves Stannis will always do what he wants, but although Stannis is quite stubborn, Stannis is not as insanely stubborn as some suggest.

1. Stannis accepts the Red God.

2. Stannis is willing to pardon Renly.

2. Stannis pardons the Storm Lords who supported Renly.

3. Stannis listens to Bryce Caron and does not bring Melisandre to the Blackwater.

4. Stannis is willing to pardon the Northmen and Ironborn.

5. Stannis does not kill Davos.

6. Stannis does not attack the Dreadfort.

7. Stannis does not force the Red God upon the Northmen.

I'm sure there are more examples that I've missed.

So Stannis does change. But does that mean that Donal Noye is bullshit, as many posters suggest? No. A writer like GRRM would not put in such memorable lines about the Baratheon brothers' personalities, only to reveal that it was all BS. In fact, people are misunderstanding Donal Noye's line about Stannis.

Let's see:

This is Stannis Baratheon. The man will fight to the bitter end, and then some.

This line is also about Stannis, and IMO this, that Stannis will fight for what he thinks is right to the bitter end, was what Noye was trying to say.

Bending=Giving up

Breaking=Dying

So in other words, Stannis will die before he gives up. That's all that Donal Noye was trying to say, and there is no evidence that Stannis is insanely stubborn.

.

2. Stannis regularly burns infidels for not believing in R'hllor.

Nope. This is a list of people that Stannis burned:

1. Alester Florent commited treason, by attempting to surrender for selfish reasons.

2. Mance Rayder abandoned the Night's Watch, and the price of deserting is death.

3. The Peasebury men were cannibals, and cannibals are punished with execution.

So Stannis only burned 5 people, and all of them would have died even if they had followed R'hllor. In fact, Lord Alester Florent was a Queen's Man himself. We can conclude Stannis does not burn infidels at all.

This misconception probably comes from HBO, and the fact that fanatical Selyse did burn Seven followers (Guncer Sunglass, the Rambton brothers, and Septon Barre) at Dragonstone while Stannis was fighting at the Blackwater. But Stannis himself never burned infidels, only traitors and cannibals.

Note: I realize burning is far more horrendous than decapitation.

3. Stannis forces people to believe in R'hllor.

No.

Lady Melisandre is a priestess of the Red God. Queen Selyse has adopted her faith, along with many others, but more of His Grace's followers still worship the Seven. Myself among them.

Of course, Davos could be exaggerating the number of the King's Men to convince Wyman, but he couldn't have exaggerated the numbers a lot, since the lie would be very easily exposed. So the percentage of King's Men in Stannis's host is probably 30~60%. That's a lot.

And if Stannis forces his followers to believe in the Lord of Light, or if he distrusts the King's Men, why is his Hand (Davos Seaworth) and his castellan of Dragonstone (Rolland Storm) both King's Men? And why does he think of many King's Men (Davos, Rolland, Andrew Estermont) as loyal to him? And why did he leave his most fanatical Queen's Men behind? The answer is that Stannis dislikes the Queen's Men.

And, in the North

"A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire." Clayton Suggs had told the king. And Godry the Giantslayer said, "The Old Gods of the North have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."

"Half my army is made up of unbelievers." Stannis had replied. "I will have no burnings. Pray harder."

Not only does Stannis refuse to burn the Northmen, he also knows that half his army is composed of King's Men or Northmen, and does nothing about it, and is against attempts to convert the Northmen or King's Men.

3.1. Stannis's moments of religious intolerance

What about burning the Seven at Dragonstone or burning the Godswood at Storm's End, though? The answer is that as we saw, Stannis changes. At ACOK, he realized that Melisandre and R'hllor had power, and tried to gain the throne by using that power. But by ASOS, when Stannis lost the Blackwater despite Mel's prophecies and Mel failed to foresee Edric's escape, he must have begun to doubt Mel's powers, and by now, he is much more tolerant than he was pre-Blackwater.

What about the ADWD burning of the wildling weirwoods? That was a political move, to signify the fact that the free folk are now kneelers. Although some of the free folk now follow R'hllor, most still follow the Old Gods, and as far as we know, Stannis has not forced the wildlings to convert.

4. Stannis wanted to burn Winterfell's heart tree.

"Jon." Melisandre was so close he could feel the warmth of her breath. "R'hllor is the only true god. A vow sworn to a tree has no more power than one sworn to your shoes. Open your heart and let the light of the Lord come in. Burn these weirwoods, and accept Winterfell as a gift of the Lord of Light."

We see that Stannis neither agrees nor disagrees with Mel's proposal to burn the Godswood of Winterfell. He does not say "To serve me, you must burn the weirwoods." So we will never know if Stannis wanted to burn the godswood or not, but since Stannis is very pragmatic and doubtlessly knows the North is a very devout region, I tend to think that Stannis was not in agreement with Melisandre's proposal. By the way, the burden of proof is on the person claiming that Stannis agreed with Melisandre, and nobody has successfully proven this.

And people seem to think this largely because Jon himself thinks Stannis wants to burn the Winterfell godswood. But at that time, Jon knew nothing about Stannis, other than vague rumors about how Stannis was a fanatical zealot. The reason that Jon thought Stannis wanted to burn the godswood is because Jon assumed the worst about Stannis based on the rumors about him being a fanatic.

5. Stannis is a fanatical R'hllorist.

Nope.

"I stopped believing in gods the day I saw the Windproud break up across the bay. Any gods so monstrous as to drown my mother and father would never have my worship, I vowed. In King's Landing, the High Septon would prattle at me of how all justice and goodness flowed from the Seven, but all I ever saw of either was made by men."

"If you do not believe in gods-"

"Why trouble with this new one?" Stannis broke in. "I have asked myself as well. I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power.

.......

The Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos. A red hawk.

To Stannis, at least to Stannis in ACOK, Melisandre is nothing more than a hawk, a weapon to use in his war, like his ships. Stannis does not believe R'hllor exists. Stannis himself acknowledges this:

There are four kings in the realm, and three of them have more men and more gold than I do. I have ships....and I have her. The red woman.

But maybe Stannis by ADWD changed? Well, no. If he did, he should have been eager to burn the Northmen, or at least get rid of the King's Men in his host. And Stannis should have been eager to convert the wildlings. He did none of these things, so he's still an atheist/agnostic.

6. Stannis is Melisandre's puppet.

Fuck the show. No.

If Stannis was Mel's puppet he would not have any support from the Northmen, and Edric Storm would already be dead.

7. Stannis killed Renly with 'black magic'.

First of all, what is "black magic"? Maegor the Cruel killed the Faith Militant with Balerion, but Jaehaerys I saved the Wall from a King-Beyond-the-Wall with the same dragon. So is Balerion an evil dragon or a good dragon? The answer is that he's just a dragon. Whether he kills people or saves people depends on the rider. People are claiming that shadow babies are evil, probably because of Cat and Davos's impressions of them. But if a monster that kills every living organism is slain by a shadow baby, is the shadow baby good? Or evil? "Black magic" makes about as much sense as "Evil weapon".

"Renly offered me a peach. At our parley. Mocked me, defied me, threatened me, and offered me a peach. I thought he was drawing a blade and went for mine own. Was that his purpose, to make me show fear? Or was it one of his pointless jests? When he spoke of how sweet the peach was, did his words have some hidden meaning?" The king gave a shake of the head, like a dog shaking a rabbit to snap its neck. "Only Renly could vex me so with a piece of fruit. He brought his doom on himself with his treason, but I did love him, Davos. I know that now. I swear, I will go to my grave thinking of my brother's peach.

So we're told that Stannis loved Renly. But "I know that now." strongly indicates that Stannis knew about Renly's demise. So wouldn't this prove that Stannis knew about the shadow baby?

But the reason Stannis went to Storm's End instead of King's Landing is because Melisandre saw Renly's host joining Stannis in her fires. So Stannis knew that Renly would die at Storm's End, but he may not have known about the shadow baby.

Indeed, most of the textual evidence strongly suggests that Stannis expected to kill Renly in battle, or that Stannis optimistically hoped Renly would surrender:

"I am not without mercy," thundered he who was notoriously without mercy. "Nor do I wish to sully Lightbringer with a brother's blood. For the sake of the mother who bore us both, I will give you this night to rethink your folly, Renly. Strike your banners and come to me before dawn, and I will grant you Storm's Enf and your old seat on the council and even name you my heir until a son is born to me. Otherwise, I shall destroy you."

If Stannis knew he could kill Renly easily that very night, why is he willing to make such huge concessions like giving up Storm's End and making him heir?

For a long time the king did not speak. Then, very softly, he said, "I dream of it sometimes. Of Renly's dying. A green tent, candles, a woman screaming. And blood." Stannis looked down on his hands. "I was still abed when he died. Your Devan will tell you. He tried to wake me. Dawn was nigh and my lords were waiting, fretting. I should have been ahorse, armored. I knew Renly would attack at break of day. Devan says I thrashed and cried out, but what does it matter? It was a dream. I was in my tent when Renly died, and when I woke, my hands were clean."

Stannis does not talk about the shadow baby to Davos, although Davos is his best friend. And Stannis is a very honest man. Why was this?

And most importantly: Stannis is a just man, and he is very confident in his military abilities. Why did Stannis not object to killing Mel with a shadow baby? The answer is that he probably did not know how Renly would die. Renly was killed by Melisandre.

But in the end, since we have no Stannis POV, we'll never know. But people shouldn't claim that Stannis certainly knew about the shadow babies, which is a lie.

8. Stannis wants to be king for selfish reasons.

Stannis does want to be king, but not for greed.

It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, It must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. The Lannister woman gave him horns and made a motley fool of him. She may have murdered him as well, as she murdered Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. For such crimes there must be justice.

So Stannis wants to be king, not for greed, but because Stannis has a duty to his daughter and to his brother. People are saying that Stannis is evil if he kills so many people for a throne he doesn't even want, but actually

1) If Stannis gives up he is also depriving his daughter of the throne, which is hers by right.

2) If Stannis gives up he is allowing the woman who Stannis believes made his brother a laughingstock and killed a friend of his to remain in power.

And this important quote

"I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold and heavy on the head but so long as I am king, I have a duty....

So Stannis is fighting for justice and duty, and for his family, like Robb, not because he wants the throne for greed, like Renly.

[Boarsbane]

7 and 8 are definitely not misconceptions

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

I agree with most other than 8. Eight is partly false, resentment for not being appreciated and desire to gain what he always thought rightfully his played a role in his actions including his inaction during GOT.

[Game Of Thrones]

7 and 8 are definitely not misconceptions

How? Did you actually read what I wrote or did you just look at the titles?

[Mladen]

Ahhh... Not bad even though it does contain, ironically, few misconceptions. The first part about Stannis being stubborn is totally off and the list you provided showed no leniency and open-mindedness... Stannis is indeed as stubborn as you can get. Which is not some terrible character flaw, TBH...

Stannis did kill Renly. Even though he was asleep at the time, he is very much aware of what he did. To argue that Stannis ddn't kill Renly via magic is kinda impossible.

[Julia Martell]

I agree with you about 6.

7: I'm sorry but how is a shadow baby that kills people not "black magic"? Just because Mel spews out some bullshit about shadows being servants of light doesn't makes it any less messed up. And neither does her prophesy claims. Stabbing a dude just before he's about to be hit by a truck is still stabbing a dude.

And I think 8 depends on how you define "selfish". I guess you can argue that he has the good of the realm at heart, especially since he showed up at the Wall, but he wants to be king because he thinks it's his right, not because he thinks he's the best man for the job. I don't know, YMMV.

[Game Of Thrones]

I agree with most other than 8. Eight is partly false, resentment for not being appreciated and desire to gain what he always thought rightfully his played a role in his actions including his inaction during GOT.

Could you explain?

[Boarsbane]

How? Did you actually read what I wrote or did you just look at the titles?

I already told you on another thread why it is black magic. His pursuit is selfish because one, he let his brother die in KL so he could be heir. Two, he is willing to do almost anything to get it, including sacrificing a newphew. Three, the pursuit is based on his sense of entitlement in being "Robert's trueborn heir".

[nastydream]

Black magic or not it was a cowardly way to kill Renly and not just at all.

So no misconception there.

[Game Of Thrones]

Ahhh... Not bad even though it does contain, ironically, few misconceptions. The first part about Stannis being stubborn is totally off and the list you provided showed no leniency and open-mindedness... Stannis is indeed as stubborn as you can get. Which is not some terrible character flaw, TBH...

I am aware that Stannis is stubborn. I'm saying that he's not exactly the guy who never listens to other people, as some posters seem to think.

Stannis did kill Renly. Even though he was asleep at the time, he is very much aware of what he did. To argue that Stannis ddn't kill Renly via magic is kinda impossible.

That was Mel, not Stannis.

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Could you explain?

I think he does nothing during the events of the first book partly due to resentment towards Robert and perhaps ambition (including Ned being chosen as hand) and not only fear and even that isn't perfectly good excuse. (I don't think it is a very clear and self-conscious feeling where he thinks I will abandon Robert and be king, I just think it is there even if not all powerful and it exists due to his resentments towards Robert and his desires to have his turn and be appreciated) And he pursues things afterwards not only due to duty but also for wanting to right wrongs such as Stannis not getting the appreciation and titles he thinks he deserves. Which I get from what we learn from his own psychology and his actions. But I also think he is inspired by a sense of duty as well and following the law.

[Ser Eric]

Re point 1.

Stannis also does not hang some of the nobles after he reaches the wall (they raped someone I think) because precisely because they were nobles. I bring this up because it's often dtated that Stannis would make plenty of enemies because of his style of justice when I think there is more evidence of him compromising in such cases. It does make him a massive hypocrite mind, but I like that.

[Game Of Thrones]

I already told you on another thread why it is black magic. His pursuit is selfish because one, he let his brother die in KL so he could be heir. Two, he is willing to do almost anything to get it, including sacrificing a newphew. Three, the pursuit is purely based on his sense of entitlement in being "Robert's trueborn heir".

1) Stannis didn't care much about Robert, but I seriously doubt that he left KL so that Robert would die. Maybe he unconsciously wanted to be king, but he probably didn't think about Robert, including his safety concerns, much when he fled. If I were him I wouldn't think about Robert much.

2) According to the person who can see the future, if I kill my nephew I can save all the people in this world, including my daughter. The reason Stannis seriously considered burning Edric was because a dragon could supposedly save the world, not because a dragon could win him the IT.

3) And love for his family, and justice. Which is what made Robb go to war, BTW.

[Game Of Thrones]

Re point 1.

Stannis also does not hang some of the nobles after he reaches the wall (they raped someone I think) because precisely because they were nobles. I bring this up because it's often dtated that Stannis would make plenty of enemies because of his style of justice when I think there is more evidence of him compromising in such cases. It does make him a massive hypocrite mind, but I like that.

No, the rapists (there were only 4!!) were castrated.

[Game Of Thrones]

Black magic or not it was a cowardly way to kill Renly and not just at all.

So no misconception there.

Mel killed Renly.

[RoamingRonin]

#2 is the only misconception.

[Mladen]

I am aware that Stannis is stubborn. I'm saying that he's not exactly the guy who never listens to other people, as some posters seem to think.

That was Mel, not Stannis.

1. Well, you wrote that he isn't stubborn when in favt he really is. So, you see the confusion?

2. So, how come Stannis knows how Renly died? Also, did Mel do it alone? Nope... That shadowbaby needed both mommy and daddy.

[Game Of Thrones]

1. Well, you wrote that he isn't stubborn when in favt he really is. So, you see the confusion?

2. So, how come Stannis knows how Renly died? Also, did Mel do it alone? Nope... That shadowbaby needed both mommy and daddy.

1. "Insanely stubborn as some posters suggest"

See the adjective there?

2. First, Stannis knew how Renly died because he saw through the shadow baby's eyes.

Second, what does Mel and Stannis having sex have anything to do with whether Stannis knew about the shadow baby or not?

[Mladen]

1. "Insanely stubborn as some posters suggest"

See the adjective there?

2. First, Stannis knew how Renly died because he saw through the shadow baby's eyes.

Second, what does Mel and Stannis having sex have anything to do with whether Stannis knew about the shadow baby or not?

1. I don't see much people arguing that Stannis is insanely stubborn, more that they acknowledge that he is indeed stubborn man. Which ultimately he is.

2. Yeah and he was participating in the creation of that baby. The baby had his face, and Stannis knows that he participated in Renly's death. Again, this is bot about exonerating or sentencing Stannis, but about what killed Renly. And it was Mel's magic, "black" is the adjective that people associate with those kind of stuff.

[Game Of Thrones]

I think he does nothing during the events of the first book partly due to resentment towards Robert and perhaps ambition (including Ned being chosen as hand) and not only fear and even that isn't perfectly good excuse. (I don't think it is a very clear and self-conscious feeling where he thinks I will abandon Robert and be king, I just think it is there even if not all powerful and it exists due to his resentments towards Robert and his desires to have his turn and be appreciated) And he pursues things afterwards not only due to duty but also for wanting to right wrongs such as Stannis not getting the appreciation and titles he thinks he deserves. Which I get from what we learn from his own psychology and his actions. But I also think he is inspired by a sense of duty as well and following the law.

Stannis was perhaps driven by his resentment of Robert when he decided to close Dragonstone, but I do think his fight for the throne is because of duty and family.