R+L=J v. 102

[sj4iy]

Well, we never heard of Edric Storm causing much of a problem for Bob.

Yes, but they didn't run off together while the entire kingdom went to war over it. And Delena was considered 'used goods' after Robert 'spoiled her'.

In any case, the situations aren't comparable at all: Rhaegar clearly wanted a third child...Robert only wanted sex. Rhaegar wanted a third head for the dragon. Robert just banged any chick he liked. Which father do you think is going to care more about what happens to that child and his mother afterwards?

[stateofdissipation]

Sorry, but being a compulsive liar means you have a pathological compulsion to lie even when no benefit accrues to yourself or anyone else for the lie - that is, you lie for the sake of lying.

Ok...use your own definition

or

A compulsive liar is someone who lies with ease and finds comfort in it. The person may even continue to lie when presented with the truth in cold, hard facts. Getting a compulsive liar to admit he or she lied can be nearly impossible.

http://addiction.lovetoknow.com/wiki/Compulsive_Lying_Disorder

or

A compulsive liar is defined as someone who lies out of habit. Lying is their normal and reflexive way of responding to questions. Compulsive liars bend the truth about everything, large and small.

The terms Pathological Liar, Habitual Liar and Chronic Liar are often used to refer to a Compulsive Liar

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/confronting-a-partner/compulsive-lying/types-of-liars.html

Or

mythomania 1. (Psychiatry) psychiatry the tendency to lie, exaggerate, or relate incredible imaginary adventures as if they had really happened, occurring in some mental disorders

http://www.thefreedi...Compulsive liar

or

provide your own source..

all apply if the following are true:

Ned lies

lies repeatedly

He lies to himself

He lies to others frequently.

He lies to his own king,

He died with a lie on his lips

That Ned was a compulsive liar... is not my assertion.... it is an accurate statement if one accepts the assertions about Ned telling lies.

[mambru]

Yes, but they didn't run off together while the entire kingdom went to war over it. And Delena was considered 'used goods' after Robert 'spoiled her'.

In any case, the situations aren't comparable at all: Rhaegar clearly wanted a third child...Robert only wanted sex. Rhaegar wanted a third head for the dragon. Robert just banged any chick he liked. Which father do you think is going to care more about what happens to that child and his mother afterwards?

A nobleman can care as much as he likes for his bastard...or as little. It's up to the individual nobleman. Just because Robert didn't give a crap about his bastards doesn't mean Rhaegar has to do the same.

And as a father, Rhaegar has the obligation to care about what happens to ALL his children, not just the last one. And by giving Aegon, the heir to the throne, a legitimate half-sibling rival - and maybe MANY half-sibling rivals, since if Lyanna and Rhaegar stay married they will presumably have more children - is putting Aegon in danger. The birth of a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna puts that boy right behind Aegon in the succession. Rickard Stark is a Lord Paramount has been described as having Southron ambitions. The temptation of making his legitimate grandchild King of Westeros may lead him to arrange a discreet childhood accident to poor Aegon - or eventually support his grandchild's claim against Aegon in open war, which the Dornish would be obliged to oppose.

It is not the act of a really caring father, IMO, to set up his children to potentially be at each other's throats over a throne for no good reason. A good noble father can raise a bastard to respectable status without him being a threat to his legitimate children. Edric Storm was raised well, and apparently happily - and at the same time, posed no threat to Robert's dynasty (the threat came from his wife, instead, alas.)

[sj4iy]

A nobleman can care as much as he likes for his bastard...or as little. It's up to the individual nobleman. Just because Robert didn't give a crap about his bastards doesn't mean Rhaegar has to do the same.

And as a father, Rhaegar has the obligation to care about what happens to ALL his children, not just the last one. And by giving Aegon, the heir to the throne, a legitimate half-sibling rival - and maybe MANY half-sibling rivals, since if Lyanna and Rhaegar stay married they will presumably have more children - is putting Aegon in danger. The birth of a legitimate son of Rhaegar and Lyanna puts that boy right behind Aegon in the succession. Rickard Stark is a Lord Paramount has been described as having Southron ambitions. The temptation of making his legitimate grandchild King of Westeros may lead him to arrange a discreet childhood accident to poor Aegon - or eventually support his grandchild's claim against Aegon in open war, which the Dornish would be obliged to oppose.

It is not the act of a really caring father, IMO, to set up his children to potentially be at each other's throats over a throne for no good reason. A good noble father can raise a bastard to respectable status without him being a threat to his legitimate children. Edric Storm was raised well, and apparently happily - and at the same time, posed no threat to Robert's dynasty (the threat came from his wife, instead, alas.)

You're comparing apples and oranges. You still haven't proven how Rhaegar NOT marrying Lyanna would be easier politically than marrying her. He WANTS this child. He BELIEVES that this child will help fulfill a prophecy to save the world. This isn't a crime of passion...this is planned. He believes this child will be as important as his two TRUEBORN children. He believes that this child will be 'one head of the DRAGON'. Rhaegar and Lyanna did not conceive quickly...in fact, it took them several months before Lyanna became pregnant with Jon (based on the timeline). Lyanna told Ned that she didn't want to marry Robert because he would never keep to one bed...but gives herself over as a mistress of the Crown Prince and agrees to have his bastard? It makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever, given Rhaegar's motives, Lyanna's personality and the amount of time that passed.

Running off with Lyanna already caused a shit ton of trouble politically. Really, there's absolutely no way it could have been worse for either Rhaegar or Lyanna's families. Rhaegar marrying a second time is nothing compared to what happened just by them running off together.

This isn't an "Edric Storm" situation at all...Robert doesn't want children, they are simply byproducts of his lust that he leaves for other people to clean up. That's not at all what Rhaegar did. This child was never going to be raised as a bastard. This child was going to be the brother/sister of his trueborn children and stand with them against the coming darkness. His mother was never going to be the disgraced and deflowered noble woman whose father was desperately trying to find someone who would take her. Rhaegar chose her over his own wife in front of a crowd containing his own father and every important family in the kingdom. That's not the work of a man who plans on sending child support every now and then.

[mambru]

Ok...use your own definition or...provide your own source..

all apply if the following are true:

Ned lies

lies repeatedly

He lies to himself

He lies to others frequently.

He lies to his own king,

He died with a lie on his lips

That Ned was a compulsive liar... is not my assertion.... it is an accurate statement if one accepts the assertions about Ned telling lies.

From your own quoted definitions, show me where Ned feels ease and comfort with lying. Or lies about everything. Or reflexively responds to questions with lies, as his normal way of responding to any questions. Or continues to lie when confronted with cold, hard, facts.

A compulsion, from the psychological point of view (my italics):

Psychology. a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, especially one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.

...means an impulse one that one performs for no good reason, that is difficult to resist. A person with obsessive-compulsive disorder may have a compulsion to wash their hands repeatedly even though they know their hands are clean, and that their action is useless and annoying - but too difficult to resist.

A compulsive liar will lie for no reason at all, and has difficulty resisting the impulse to do so, even when it's detrimental to themselves. Ned has lied, but he always has had a reason for his lies...generally a reason he thinks is a good and helpful one. Since we never saw Ned telling lies for no reason ("Say, did you know my mother was a Targaryen on the distaff side?"), he's not a compulsive liar.

[Alia of the knife]

There is also the theory, (and forgive me, but I can't remember who originally posited it), from a year or so ago that the Dragon having three heads is not necessarily three different people, but one person with three different names or identities.

Jon would be in his life:

~ Jon Snow

~ Jon Stark, (if Robbs letter is what we think it is).

~ Jon Targaryen

(It's also telling that Ned named him after a Stark king).

[Julia Martell]

all apply if the following are true:

Ned lies

lies repeatedly

He lies to himself

He lies to others frequently.

He lies to his own king,

He died with a lie on his lips

That Ned was a compulsive liar... is not my assertion.... it is an accurate statement if one accepts the assertions about Ned telling lies.

Talk about using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law!

[mambru]

Lyanna told Ned that she didn't want to marry Robert because he would never keep to one bed...but gives herself over as a mistress of the Crown Prince and agrees to have his bastard? It makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever, given Rhaegar's motives, Lyanna's personality and the amount of time that passed.

We know Lyanna disapproved of Robert not keeping to one bed after he was married. Rhaegar's romantic pursuit of Lyanna even though he's married to Elia means that Rhaegar is not keeping to one bed. There's Elia's bed - and Lyanna's. That's two. And his marrying Lyanna would NOT change that number of beds. So if Lyanna willingly accepted Rhaegar's romantic overtures (and I agree she probably did), then she was unavoidably being a little unfaithful to her previously stated principles - not at all unusual for a hormonally charged teen (I hear there's a lot of used purity rings on ebay.)

As for Lyanna's personality - IMO, everything we've been told about her tells us that she would not yearn after the role of a ladylike wife, dutifully fulfilling her ordained respectable female roles, embroidering and playing the high harp in the manor, and submissively holding her tongue except to speak politely. We've been told she was wild, like Arya. We've been told that she wouldn't hesitate to bluntly call her lord husband a fool in front of others if she thought he was being one. We've been shown she studies martial arts in defiance of her ladylike training. It's even hinted that she MAY have participated in a tournament. None of this is compatible with being the perfect Lady of the Manor in the Southron style. And to be Rhaegar's queen would require that she be the MOST Ladylike Lady in the kingdom at all times under hostile scrutiny for the rest of her natural life.

To say that she was willing to jettison all that we know of her personality just for the chance to be Rhaegar's lawfully wedded polygamous second wife at KL is like saying that her entire personality was just a state of immaturity that she would outgrow - all she really needed was the right man to come along. And I don't agree with that.

To me, it makes more sense that since she wants to be a warrior woman like the Mormonts, she might aspire to a state like Alysane Mormont's - an lady with her own children - free of a husband - and her own rights that no one questions or disrespects. And maybe Rhaegar won her over by understanding that and offering her a relationship on that basis.

You're comparing apples and oranges. You still haven't proven how Rhaegar NOT marrying Lyanna would be easier politically than marrying her.

I mentioned the political danger to his legitimate children. If he marries Lyanna, Jon enters the line of succession right behind Aegon - giving the Starks a powerful reason to pit Jon against Aegon, Rhaegar's son by Elia. If Jon stays a bastard, he doesn't enter the line of succession, and he won't have a claim to the throne without the entire legitimate line perishing - something that even a Lord Paramount would find difficulty arranging. Having Jon stay a bastard is safer for Aegon...hell, it's even safer for Jon, considering the mortality rate of those who play the game of thrones.

As for the other political fallout...Dorne would not be a threat if Lyanna were merely a mistress - mistresses and bastards are routine and respected there. The Starks might be placated with a nice large land grant and a title to Lyanna and her child, as well as permission for the child to have the name of Stark (the way the Mormont women give their children their name), as well as Lyanna's immediate declaration that she had gone with Rhaegar of her own free will. Robert will be the real sticking point - but without the support of the rest, he couldn't wage a war on his own.

Running off with Lyanna already caused a shit ton of trouble politically. Really, there's absolutely no way it could have been worse for either Rhaegar or Lyanna's families.

I totally agree with you there. It was a godawful dumb move. If Rhaegar had taken Lyanna AFTER he became king, he could have done as he liked. If he had taken Lyanna and immediately taken responsibility for his actions and offered to make amends (as well as have Lyanna provide reassurance that she was well and happy) - there would have been much less support of a war. But Rhaegar's postponing deposing Aerys for months to have sex with Lyanna while not bothering to correct the impression that he'd abducted and raped her was the absolute WORST way he could have gone about it. But IMO, a marriage does nothing to make that any better.

[addicted to snow]

My new Theory is that Lyanna was a virgin, not unlike the virgin mary…

I can't find any proof anywhere in the books that she was sexually active...

As for Lyanna's personality - IMO, everything we've been told about her tells us that she would not yearn after the role of a ladylike wife, dutifully fulfilling her ordained respectable female roles, embroidering and playing the high harp in the manor, and submissively holding her tongue except to speak politely.

I too have toyed with the idea that Lyanna was a lesbian… We simply do not know enough about her to know exactly what her preference was with regards to sexual partners or if she even had a preference...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My new Theory is that Lyanna was a virgin, not unlike the virgin mary…

I can't find any proof anywhere in the books that she was sexually active...

Well, according to Ned, Robert was "muscled like a maiden's fantasy". Cersei never wanted him and she wasn't a maiden when they got married. Maybe Lyanna wasn't going to meet him as a husband being a maiden either.

[Ygrain]

Well, according to Ned, Robert was "muscled like a maiden's fantasy". Cersei never wanted him and she wasn't a maiden when they got married. Maybe Lyanna wasn't going to meet him as a husband being a maiden either.

She did, that one time before he said "Lyanna".

[John Courage]

Ok...use your own definition

or

or

Or

or

provide your own source..

all apply if the following are true:

Ned lies

lies repeatedly

He lies to himself

He lies to others frequently.

He lies to his own king,

He died with a lie on his lips

That Ned was a compulsive liar... is not my assertion.... it is an accurate statement if one accepts the assertions about Ned telling lies.

Did you even read the definitions you quoted? If you think Ned was a compulsive liar, then you believe in an assumption you created without any textual evidence. With that in mind, what are Ned's lies? If he is telling a lie to protect someone, or if he is telling the same lie over and over again to maintain a secret over the course of 14 years, that isn't a compulsive liar, not even close, especially when those necessary lies still make him feel uncomfortable. If Ned were the compulsive liar you maintain, then nothing he says is trustworthy, and he never would have earned the reputation for being such a staunchly honest and honorable man.

"You are an honest and honourable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life... When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why." ~ Varys AGOT Chp. 58

"I knew Ned Stark as well. Your father was no friend of mine, but only a fool would doubt his honor or his honesty." ~ Stannis Baratheon ASOS Chp. 76

"You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe, but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move." ~ Petyr Baelish AGOT Chp. 47

"You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark" ~ Robert Baratheon AGOT Chp. 30

"You are too hard on yourself, Ned. You always were. Damn it, no woman wants Baelor the Blessed in her bed."~ Robert Baratheon AGOT Chp. 12

Cersei: "You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King’s Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

Eddard: "I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine, but that was not one of them." ~ AGOT Chp. 45

And when he does lie, it tears him up inside and leaves him with sleepless nights.

"He had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night." Eddard Stark AGOT Chp. 12

[Natasi]

As a small aside, I don't think Rhaegar would have spent any more time in Elia's bed seeing as another pregnancy would have probably been the death of her, so I don't think there would have been any bed hopping at all.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

As a small aside, I don't think Rhaegar would have spent any more time in Elia's bed seeing as another pregnancy would have probably been the death of her, so I don't think there would have been any bed hopping at all.

We all agree.

[Natasi]

We know Lyanna disapproved of Robert not keeping to one bed after he was married. Rhaegar's romantic pursuit of Lyanna even though he's married to Elia means that Rhaegar is not keeping to one bed. There's Elia's bed - and Lyanna's. That's two. And his marrying Lyanna would NOT change that number of beds. So if Lyanna willingly accepted Rhaegar's romantic overtures (and I agree she probably did), then she was unavoidably being a little unfaithful to her previously stated principles - not at all unusual for a hormonally charged teen (I hear there's a lot of used purity rings on ebay.)

This is what I was referring to.

[BearQueen87]

We know Lyanna disapproved of Robert not keeping to one bed after he was married. Rhaegar's romantic pursuit of Lyanna even though he's married to Elia means that Rhaegar is not keeping to one bed. There's Elia's bed - and Lyanna's. That's two. And his marrying Lyanna would NOT change that number of beds. So if Lyanna willingly accepted Rhaegar's romantic overtures (and I agree she probably did), then she was unavoidably being a little unfaithful to her previously stated principles - not at all unusual for a hormonally charged teen (I hear there's a lot of used purity rings on ebay.)

Except most people believe that R would not have ever slept with Elia ever again. It's too dangerous in case she got with child. He wouldn't be in her bed.

ETA: whoops. didn't read the rest of the thread and saw that someone answered this.

[stateofdissipation]

From your own quoted definitions, show me where Ned feels ease and comfort with lying. Or lies about everything. Or reflexively responds to questions with lies, as his normal way of responding to any questions. Or continues to lie when confronted with cold, hard, facts.

A compulsion, from the psychological point of view (my italics):

...means an impulse one that one performs for no good reason, that is difficult to resist. A person with obsessive-compulsive disorder may have a compulsion to wash their hands repeatedly even though they know their hands are clean, and that their action is useless and annoying - but too difficult to resist.

A compulsive liar will lie for no reason at all, and has difficulty resisting the impulse to do so, even when it's detrimental to themselves. Ned has lied, but he always has had a reason for his lies...generally a reason he thinks is a good and helpful one. Since we never saw Ned telling lies for no reason ("Say, did you know my mother was a Targaryen on the distaff side?"), he's not a compulsive liar.

From your own quoted definitions, show me where Ned feels ease and comfort with lying. Or lies about everything. Or reflexively responds to questions with lies, as his normal way of responding to any questions. Or continues to lie when confronted with cold, hard, facts.

You choose a different definition than the one I chose.... I will accept yours. And discontinue calling Ned a compulsive liar as a summary of

Ned lies

lies repeatedly

He lies to himself

He lies to others frequently.

He lies to his own king,

He died with a lie on his lips

Instead I will summarize it as a habitual liar.---noting that habitual and compulsive liars are actually the same thing...as per an earlier definition

A compulsion, from the psychological point of view (my italics):

Psychology. a strong, usually irresistible impulse to perform an act, especially one that is irrational or contrary to one's will.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compulsion

...means an impulse one that one performs for no good reason, that is difficult to resist. A person with obsessive-compulsive disorder may have a compulsion to wash their hands repeatedly even though they know their hands are clean, and that their action is useless and annoying - but too difficult to resist.

OK... luckily we decided to go with habitual....

A compulsive liar will lie for no reason at all, and has difficulty resisting the impulse to do so, even when it's detrimental to themselves.

OK

Ned has lied, but he always has had a reason for his lies...generally a reason he thinks is a good and helpful one. Since we never saw Ned telling lies for no reason ("Say, did you know my mother was a Targaryen on the distaff side?"), he's not a compulsive liar.

OK

---Ned fit the criteria for compulsive liar in the definition that I cited ---

Summarizing Kingmonkey's llist of lies... Ned was a habitual liar.

By the by.... My assertion was that Ned was honest.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

This is what I was referring to.

OIC. I think the metapher is broken, as ... and I have just been :ninja: ninja 'd by @BearQueen87 ... Rhaegar does the modern serial monogamy, and is not interchangeably having sex with the one and then the other. There will be no more lovemaking to Elia, it is all Lyanna's now.

[Ygrain]

Except most people believe that R would not have ever slept with Elia ever again. It's too dangerous in case she got with child. He wouldn't be in her bed.

And some of us wonder what was that "certain name" that Elia screamed when murderers came for her and her child, and whether she might have had someone else to warm her bed.

[Alia of the knife]

Elia was bedridden for almost half a year with Rhaenys.

Before the cconception of Aegon, I don't think it was lost on either one of them that a second child could kill her.

The Maesters told Rhaegar that "Elia would bear no more children," not "Elia should bear more children, else it could kill her."

Elia was rendered barren by Aegons birth