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Do you think a Sansa/Royce Coup could happen?


Good Guy Garlan

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Let's assume for a moment that for whatever reason (like, if she wants to save Sweetrobin and not marry Harry, for example) Sansa decides she's had enough of LF and she decides to stage a coup against him



Does she have what it takes to pull it off, in terms of resources? I think she does. Let's see:



1) A Regent: I don't think Sansa could reign as Sweetrobin's regent herself, so she needs one: Bronze Royce. They have the added bonus of knowing each other already, should she decide to contact him or reveal herself to him.



2) Mya Stone: Lothor Brune's only weakness. Without Brune, LF would be vulnerable. Someone loyal to Royce could be named new Captain of the Guards



3) Myranda Royce: Her father is in LF's payroll, that's for sure, but apparently Myranda calls the shots down at the Gates of the Moon. And that girl is up to something, she knows there's something funny about LF and Alayne



4) Dirt all around: LF currently seems to have half of the Lords Declarant, Waynwood, Belmore and Templeton. Redfort would likely side with Bronze Royce. As to Gilwood Hunter, LF stupidly let it slip to Sansa that his brother Harlan killed Lord Eon, and as Varys tells us, the contents of a man's letters is more valuable than the content of his pocket. Sansa also knows Corbray is a child molester in LF's payroll. And she obviously knows he killed Lysa and Jon Arryn



5) The Mad Mouse: Last but not least, there's the wildcard of Ser Shadrich. Who knows where he'd fall when shit hits the fan, but I don't think he'd be on LF's side



So, ideally Sansa and Royce could depose LF and take control of the Gates of the Moon and rule the Vale through Sweetrobin. It would be a nice callback to aGoT when Ned could have used Royce for his own coup but didn't, only now his daughter would not make the same mistake.



Do you think this is possible, or do you think Sansa will outsmart LF in some other way (and please elaborate on this)?


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I think it could, but I guess I foresee Sansa playing a longer, bigger game. I don't seen her showing her hand until she has a better idea of being able to be in a good long term position. As it is, if she allies with Royce and casts Little Finger down, I don't see her chances of staying hidden as all that good. I think she's learning to be a survivor. Of course, once Little Finger starts poisoning Sweet Robin and the boy starts to die, it may force her hand. If we are looking only at could, then yes. I think it could.

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I think their Vale takeover would be just the first step of a much bigger game. By deposing LF, they would be going against the authority of the Iron Throne, and as much as Varys wants to, I don't think the Lannister-Tyrell regime will crumble all that fast.



So I think the Vale lords who participated in the coup would seek allies in case the IT retaliates.



So...Enter the Dragon: Aegon.


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I think their Vale takeover would be just the first step of a much bigger game. By deposing LF, they would be going against the authority of the Iron Throne, and as much as Varys wants to, I don't think the Lannister-Tyrell regime will crumble all that fast.

So I think the Vale lords who participated in the coup would seek allies in case the IT retaliates.

So...Enter the Dragon: Aegon.

Sansas future husband

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I love all these Sansa/ Vale theories but I still don't see her as being a manipulative badass that so many people portray her to be. Some people would have you believe that Sansa is already the heir apparent to the Queen of Thorns, which might be the case in the future but is bullshit now. And I like Sansa as a character and her story arc. I just think she is a long way off from pulling one over on someone like Littlefinger.


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I think if Sansa is going to pull off some kind of coup, Bronze Yohn will be essential to that. She can't do it without him. But they would need to time it well, when the Iron Throne is in chaos with the whole Lannister/Tyrell/Aegon mess. I think declaring for Aegon might be a way of doing it if he looks like he's going to win. In general, I don't think the Lannisters would care about LF being deposed but they might want Sansa. Tyrells probably don't care too much about Sansa. But I'm not sure if Bronze Yohn and Sansa could unite the whole Vale unless they can prove somehow that they're working with Sweetrobin's best views at heart or unless they can prove that LF is poisoning him. The Blackfish would be helpful too. So, possible but difficult.


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I think their Vale takeover would be just the first step of a much bigger game. By deposing LF, they would be going against the authority of the Iron Throne, and as much as Varys wants to, I don't think the Lannister-Tyrell regime will crumble all that fast.

So I think the Vale lords who participated in the coup would seek allies in case the IT retaliates.

So...Enter the Dragon: Aegon.

Or Stannis...

Which would be reviving the old Arryn/Stark/Baratheon alliance of the Rebellion years. It is also rather poetic justice on Littlefinger considering one of the few things we can predict about his actions is that he tries to oppose Stannis whenever possible as the two have a long history of opposing other other such as:-

(1) Stannis tries to take down Janos Slynt, Littlefinger's corrupt stooge in the Gold Cloaks.

(2) Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn have Jon Arryn murdered in part to stop Sweet Robin becoming Stannis' Ward.

(3) Littlefinger betrays Ned Stark to prevent from Ned pulling off a pro-Stannis coup.

(4) Above and beyond Tyrion, Tywin and the Tyrells Littlefinger by brokering the alliance of the West is arguably the person who deserves the most credit for defeating Stannis on Blackwater.

(5) Littlefinger trains up Jeyne Poole to play False Arya for the Boltons who Stannis is currently fighting for control of the North.

(6) Also after the Iron Throne itself Littlefinger may well be the second biggest debtor (as well as largely being responsible for the first) in the Seven Kingdoms to the Iron Bank of Braavos who have just signed an agreement to back guess who? Stannis Baratheon!

If you want to see a really unpleasant end for Littlefinger with all his plots crashing down around him, you probably couldn't do better than sell him out to his old enemy from his days on Robert's small council!

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The biggest problem with them planning an attack on Littlefinger is doing it without Littlefinger finding out and defeating it before they even get a chance to start. Littlefinger has shown that he has a very complicated and vast spy network. He is the only person who was able to keep Varys in the dark about most of his activities. In the Vale where he started building that network Littlefinger probably has spies everywhere so planning a coup without him finding out would be very difficult. There is no doubt in my mind that Littlefinger has spies all over Bronze Yohn and Nestor Royce's households. He knows that those two are his most dangerous enemies in the Vale and he is going to do whatever he can to keep an eye on them.



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3) Myranda Royce: Her father is in LF's payroll, that's for sure, but apparently Myranda calls the shots down at the Gates of the Moon. And that girl is up to something, she knows there's something funny about LF and Alayne

are you sure about that?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81892-littlefingers-downfall/?p=4161694

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I'm of the opinion that the Blackfish has runaway to the Vale to call upon his former soldiers he had control of at the moon gate, I feel that once he arrives he will see Sansa and name her the Queen in the North after Robb and go from there. This will be a problem LF will need to deal with and Sansa will stop him from killing Blackfish and the other lords will join the cause.

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I'm of the opinion that the Blackfish has runaway to the Vale to call upon his former soldiers he had control of at the moon gate, I feel that once he arrives he will see Sansa and name her the Queen in the North after Robb and go from there. This will be a problem LF will need to deal with and Sansa will stop him from killing Blackfish and the other lords will join the cause.

The Blackfish could well play a role in the Vale. He's a man who inspires loyalty. He can't name Sansa Queen in the North because he's not a northmen. He could use Sansa's name to try to rally the troops but I think it's more likely he'd just want to keep Sansa safe and send her to White Harbour or Greywater Watch. Also, I can't really see why the Vale would rally for Sansa unless they had other reasons. Essentially, the Vale's enemy is Littlefinger and there's no point renewing their alliance with the north and riverlands with them in their current states, unless the Lannisters lose the throne or look likely to lose it.

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I think Sansa may outsmart Littlefinger with the mountain clans. They are loyal to Tyrion, Sansas' husband. (I believe they're still using the war cry of "Halfman" when they attack the Vale now. I may be wrong about this however.)Tyrion promised them the Vale and armed them. Some of them (Timmett, son of Timmett etc) may remember Sansa from KL. She may convince them to storm the Eeyrie and tell them who may be grateful (Royce) for getting rid of some unsavory characters (Littlefinger/Corbray).



Blackfish may also have gone back to the Vale or may be heading that way. He would be great for knowledge in how and where to get in. He would back up that Sansa is the Halfmans wife (Sansa looks like Cat, Blackfish knows she was married).

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I think that there will be a coup against LF in the Vale, and that Sansa will be an important part of it, but I'm unconvinced that she will be the mastermind behind it. I think that the Vale lords will begin acting on their own, and Sansa will help them. Tze posted something in another thread ab the downfall of LF, which made tons of sense to me (as all of her posts do). The long and short of her post is that Nestor Royce will be leading the coup, because he has all of the necessary ingredients, but you should definitely read her post if you haven't before.






I'm of the opinion that the Blackfish has runaway to the Vale to call upon his former soldiers he had control of at the moon gate, I feel that once he arrives he will see Sansa and name her the Queen in the North after Robb and go from there. This will be a problem LF will need to deal with and Sansa will stop him from killing Blackfish and the other lords will join the cause.




I also believe that the Blackfish's most probable destination is the Vale. I'm not sure ab him naming her Queen in the North, but his presence could most definitely help the coup IF he decides to help them. He was close to LF while he was Hoster Tully's ward as a child.

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There is no way Sansa can "outsmart" Littlefinger, in the sense of her plotting against him or anything like it because she has "learned" the game. It's like wishing that Jaime develops his same skills with his left hand as he had with the right one. This kinda of thing doesn't happen in ASOIAF and I doubt it will happen. Otherwise, Jon hadn't been stabbed and Dany's rule would be quite a successful one.

And she doesn't need to. She only needs to finds out what he did, tell others and that's all. In fact, she only needs a little push to free the vale from Littlefinger. Let's keep the plots and treacheries to Cersei, who is getting quite good at... no being quite good at them.

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There is no way Sansa can "outsmart" Littlefinger, in the sense of her plotting against him or anything like it because she has "learned" the game. It's like wishing that Jaime develops his same skills with his left hand as he had with the right one. This kinda of thing doesn't happen in ASOIAF and I doubt it will happen.

 

Qhorin Halfhand begs to differ. Well, like, I mean he would if he wasn't dead and stuff.

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There is no way Sansa can "outsmart" Littlefinger, in the sense of her plotting against him or anything like it because she has "learned" the game. It's like wishing that Jaime develops his same skills with his left hand as he had with the right one. This kinda of thing doesn't happen in ASOIAF and I doubt it will happen. Otherwise, Jon hadn't been stabbed and Dany's rule would be quite a successful one.

And she doesn't need to. She only needs to finds out what he did, tell others and that's all. In fact, she only needs a little push to free the vale from Littlefinger. Let's keep the plots and treacheries to Cersei, who is getting quite good at... no being quite good at them.

I agree with you, I don't think Sansa will outsmart LF but she doesn't have to. Sansa has something that LF doesn't: an influential name. LF has been trying to fight against the Great Houses but it won't work long-term. All Sansa needs is her name, her innocence and her information.

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I think that there will be a coup against LF in the Vale, and that Sansa will be an important part of it, but I'm unconvinced that she will be the mastermind behind it. I think that the Vale lords will begin acting on their own, and Sansa will help them. Tze posted something in another thread ab the downfall of LF, which made tons of sense to me (as all of her posts do). The long and short of her post is that Nestor Royce will be leading the coup, because he has all of the necessary ingredients, but you should definitely read her post if you haven't before.

The problem I have with the Nestor Royce angle is the fact that for it to work would mean that Littlefinger would have to be totally blind to the fact that he is putting himself in a vulnerable position by going to the Gates of the Moon which is ruled by Nestor Royce. Littlefinger was born a Lord of the Vale and spent a good amount of time there and he would not unaware about his vulnerable position at the Gates of the Moon so he would be taking steps to protect himself.

Also this theory assumes that once Nestor Royce kills Littlefinger he would automatically become the new Protector of the Vale but that is no guarantee. Just because he was the Steward does not automatically make him the new Lord Protector and the first thing a new Lord Protector would do would be strip away the Gates of the Moon from Nestor because of how powerful it makes him.

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