Do you think a Sansa/Royce Coup could happen?

[oramami]

Sansa is a reactive person, not a proactive one.

I think, anyways, it is clear that Baelish will die.

I also think that Sansa is going to be one the one to kill Baelish.

Therefore, I think it will be a reactive event.

[Light a wight tonight]

3) Myranda Royce: Her father is in LF's payroll, that's for sure, but apparently Myranda calls the shots down at the Gates of the Moon. And that girl is up to something, she knows there's something funny about LF and Alayne

As LF observed after having Ser Dontos killed, a purse of silver buys a man for a while. There's no guarantee anyone stays bought, which includes all those Vale lords who currently are on LF's payroll. They've proven that they aren't loyal by taking his side rather than supporting their liege. They can change sides as quickly.

[AliceRose]

She's also aware that he's promising her lies and Arbor Gold, and Petyr has had her isolated in the Eyrie. Once she has a better idea of what her real choices are, I think she will surprise him and not in a way he anticipated. I also think the Royces have a part to play in it.

ETA: I read your post on LF in the Only Cat thread, and thought it pinpointed just what a douche LF is. I think Sansa already sees that and will understand more and more of it as her arc progresses.

The entire phrase is in the quote box, no she doesn't think about another choice. She think Petyr tells lies to comfort her.

He is serving me lies as well, Sansa realized. They were comforting lies, though, and she thought them kindly meant. A lie is not so bad if it is kindly meant. If only she believed them...

[Dya of Oldstones]

I think the part at the end says a lot....if only she believed them. That says to me she still doesn't trust him, and several other places she sees and evaluates the different sides of his character. It's not a sure thing that she believes in him and trusts him, and she's in the Vale now where she will have access to more people and better sources of information. She's also aware that he's dangerous even to players much older, smarter and politically savvy than she is and he basically just got away with kingslaying by blaming Tyrion and by extension, her.

I admit to sometimes finding her arc frustrating and at times discouraging, since psychologically she's been through almost as much as Theon, but I'm optimistic that she will find a way to survive and hopefully thrive by the end of the series.

ETA: She's also looking at a real possibility that openly resisting LF too soon could get her sent to KL and executed.

[AliceRose]

Considering Tywin's goal in the Sansa/Tyrion marriage was to destroy her house and family, it would be a major step in the right direction to have Bronze Yohn trying to marry her off. Even if her and Tyrion had fallen madly in love, it was and is a doomed marriage for her politically. Sansa's sick and tired of being tossed around as a political football just for her claim to Winterfell, but it does bring an interesting focus in how this could play out even if was done by someone who is loyal to Ned and the Starks.

Sansa doesn't want an arranged marriage, but if she will forced to marry, the lord of the Vale is a better choice then a son of lower lord. Lady of the Vale has her own power. If Yohn decides to force her to marry his son, Sansa will have no any power.

[Dya of Oldstones]

Anyhoo, Sansa's first chapter in tWoW will be one that was originally meant for aFfC, so we're gonna have to wait and see. I just don't think she's quite as much under LF's thumb as many think she is.

[AliceRose]

I think the part at the end says a lot....if only she believed them. That says to me she still doesn't trust him, and several other places she sees and evaluates the different sides of his character. It's not a sure thing that she believes in him and trusts him, and she's in the Vale now where she will have access to more people and better sources of information. She's also aware that he's dangerous even to players much older, smarter and politically savvy than she is and he basically just got away with kingslaying by blaming Tyrion and by extension, her.

I admit to sometimes finding her arc frustrating and at times discouraging, since psychologically she's been through almost as much as Theon, but I'm optimistic that she will find a way to survive and hopefully thrive by the end of the series.

ETA: She's also looking at a real possibility that openly resisting LF too soon could get her sent to KL and executed.

Where in the book does she think so?

Petyr's lies don't comfot her, she is still afraid, but she isn't afraid of him.

Baelish can't send her to KL alive, she knows too much about him and Sansa doesn't think Petyr is able to kill her, he saved her twice. Lords of the Vale might send her to the queen, not Petyr. He doesn't want her dead.

[Little Member]

I don't think so. I don't think Sansa will be a player or rule anything.

I totally agree. Sansa is a few points higher than a moron. She knows how to throw dinner parties. She seemed quite excited to LF's plan to marry her to Harry the Heir. Though she never met him. I don't truly believe she cared to be at winterfell, or cares much to go back. She just wants to be some lord's lady and make him tea and lemon cakes. Of all the POV characters, she is the most dull and boring. No plans, no dreams, no hopes, just every bit a normal person just looking upon the world without even mild curiosity. How can someone so unlike any other character exist in ASOIAF? Maybe she's a favor for one of GRRM's loved ones. Since she seems so innocent and clueless, it'd be a total deus ex machina to have her suddenly change. If she's getting fed up and starts scheming, GRRM better start hinting at it soon.

[AliceRose]

Let's assume for a moment that for whatever reason (like, if she wants to save Sweetrobin and not marry Harry, for example) Sansa decides she's had enough of LF and she decides to stage a coup against him

Does she have what it takes to pull it off, in terms of resources? I think she does. Let's see:

1) A Regent: I don't think Sansa could reign as Sweetrobin's regent herself, so she needs one: Bronze Royce. They have the added bonus of knowing each other already, should she decide to contact him or reveal herself to him.

3) Myranda Royce: Her father is in LF's payroll, that's for sure, but apparently Myranda calls the shots down at the Gates of the Moon. And that girl is up to something, she knows there's something funny about LF and Alayne

So, ideally Sansa and Royce could depose LF and take control of the Gates of the Moon and rule the Vale through Sweetrobin. It would be a nice callback to aGoT when Ned could have used Royce for his own coup but didn't, only now his daughter would not make the same mistake.

Do you think this is possible, or do you think Sansa will outsmart LF in some other way (and please elaborate on this)?

The reason is really important, if Sansa wants to save SR Yohn Royce is not a good candidate, he wants Harry the Heir to be Lord of the Vale he knighted him, Bronze Royce also wants to marry one of his granddaughters to Harry. Royce didn't cares about Robert he cares about power. If Sansa doesn't want an arranged marriage it isn't wise go to Yohn Royce and hope he will not force her to marry for her claim to Winterfell.

Petyr isn't an enemy for Myranda, i guess she wants to marry him, she told she needs a husband and then the she asked does lord Baelish think to marry again and how long is his finger.

“Our cousin Bronze Yohn had himself a mêlée at Runestone,” Myranda Royce went on, oblivious, “a small one, just for squires. It was meant for Harry the Heir to win the honors, and so he did.”

“Harry the Heir?”

“Lady Waynwood’s ward. Harrold Hardyng. I suppose we must call him Ser Harry now. Bronze Yohn knighted him.”

(..) Lady Waynwood will most like marry him to one of her granddaughters, or one of Bronze Yohn’s.”

My lord father had hoped to marry me to Harry, but Lady Waynwood would not hear of it. I do not know whether it was me she found unsuitable, or just my dowry.” She gave a sigh. “I do need another husband. I had one once, but I killed him.”

(..) So here I am, a widow, but scarce used.

(..) “Does your father plan to wed again?”

(..)“We all know how devoted he was to Lady Lysa,” said Myranda, “but he cannot mourn forever. He needs a pretty young wife to wash away his grief. I imagine he could have his pick of half the noble maidens in the Vale. Who could be a better husband than our own bold Lord Protector? Though I do wish he had a better name than Littlefinger. How little is it, do you know?”

A ward, however... young Harry’s only a cousin, and the dower that I offered her ladyship was even larger than the one that Lyonel Corbray just collected. It had to be, for her to risk Bronze Yohn’s wroth. This will put all his plans awry.

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

isnt she related to the Royce's ?

[AliceRose]

isnt she related to the Royce's ?

Sansa? Yes, she is, she was also related to Lysa..

[cassidyaj]

Sansa is still much too helpless to do anything. I think she needs a rather large wake up call/kick in the butt before she will act. Not sure how GRRM could accomplish that if he chose to do so...maybe the Blackfish will show up at the Vale and figure her out. Maybe Myranda will instigate things?

[Hos the Hostage]

OP: Good catch about Brune and Mya manipulation possibility.

I think its actually possible, with Cersei going steeply downhill at KL and Aegon ascending, Sansa may no longer need to hide her identity, which was the primary reason she had to depend on LF, the reason she could not plead to Bronze Yohn to save her. once Cersei is removed from power, Sansa needs not be so afraid of everyone around her as she was in the beginning of aFFC. I think that is also the reason why LF hides the KL developments from Sansa. But with Myranda Royce, Sansa is going to know it, and she might think she can finally get rid of Petyr's kisses.

[AliceRose]

I think its actually possible, with Cersei going steeply downhill at KL and Aegon ascending, Sansa may no longer need to hide her identity, which was the primary reason she had to depend on LF, the reason she could not plead to Bronze Yohn to save her. once Cersei is removed from power, Sansa needs not be so afraid of everyone around her as she was in the beginning of aFFC. I think that is also the reason why LF hides the KL developments from Sansa. But with Myranda Royce, Sansa is going to know it, and she might think she can finally get rid of Petyr's kisses.

Petyr doesn't hide the KL developments from Sansa, the last Alayne chapter in AFAC is fortieth, in the previous Cersei's chapter(39) there is no so much to hide.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Feast_for_Crows-Chapter_39

Petyr is telling the truth to Sansa

“You would not believe half of what is happening in King’s Landing, sweetling. Cersei stumbles from one idiocy to the next, helped along by her council of the deaf, the dim, and the blind. I always anticipated that she would beggar the realm and destroy herself, but I never expected she would do it quite so fast.

[Ali Colak]

are you sure about that?

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81892-littlefingers-downfall/?p=4161694

Ok, this link makes so much sense! Previously, I'd agreed with those who thought that Myranda was up to something during that ride down from the Eyrie, and --like everyone else-- I'd come up with elaborate ideas as to exactly what she was doing. But this is so simple!

LF probably understands that he's putting himself in a vulnerable position, but the thing is, he doesn't have a very high opinion of Nestor Royce, and doesn't think that Royce himself poses him any danger. LF won't be the first person to underestimate a potential danger. It really comes down to what kind of person Nestor Royce is, and though I had previously shared Lysa's contemptuous attitude towards him, now I'm not so sure. It might be that he is more able than the lord’s declarant, or has advisors who are better able and more cunning.

[Lee-Sensei]

The reason is really important, if Sansa wants to save SR Yohn Royce is not a good candidate, he wants Harry the Heir to be Lord of the Vale he knighted him, Bronze Royce also wants to marry one of his granddaughters to Harry. Royce didn't cares about Robert he cares about power. If Sansa doesn't want an arranged marriage it isn't wise go to Yohn Royce and hope he will not force her to marry for her claim to Winterfell.

Petyr isn't an enemy for Myranda, i guess she wants to marry him, she told she needs a husband and then the she asked does lord Baelish think to marry again and how long is his finger.

Yohn Royce doesn't want SR dead.

[Ali Colak]

The reason is really important, if Sansa wants to save SR Yohn Royce is not a good candidate, he wants Harry the Heir to be Lord of the Vale he knighted him, Bronze Royce also wants to marry one of his granddaughters to Harry. Royce didn't cares about Robert he cares about power. If Sansa doesn't want an arranged marriage it isn't wise go to Yohn Royce and hope he will not force her to marry for her claim to Winterfell.

Petyr isn't an enemy for Myranda, i guess she wants to marry him, she told she needs a husband and then the she asked does lord Baelish think to marry again and how long is his finger.

Bronze Yone may have had some plans before he had Sansa, but if he wants power, he would

definitely be interested in unifying both Winterfel and the veil through marriage. Royce has only one son, and if he tried to get Sansa's claim over the north for one of his family, that would probably cause some problems with Harry.

[AliceRose]

Bronze Yone may have had some plans before he had Sansa, but if he wants power, he would

definitely be interested in unifying both Winterfel and the veil through marriage. Royce has only one son, and if he tried to get Sansa's claim over the north for one of his family, that would probably cause some problems with Harry.

Harry could marry one of Yohn's granddaughters and Sansa could marry the last John's son. Why do you think it might be a problem for Harry? It isn't the best scenario for Sansa of course, but Harry doesn't loose so much, in that case he gains the loyalty of the bigger house of the Vale.

[Blackfish Tully]

I totally agree. Sansa is a few points higher than a moron. She knows how to throw dinner parties. She seemed quite excited to LF's plan to marry her to Harry the Heir. Though she never met him. I don't truly believe she cared to be at winterfell, or cares much to go back. She just wants to be some lord's lady and make him tea and lemon cakes. Of all the POV characters, she is the most dull and boring. No plans, no dreams, no hopes, just every bit a normal person just looking upon the world without even mild curiosity. How can someone so unlike any other character exist in ASOIAF? Maybe she's a favor for one of GRRM's loved ones. Since she seems so innocent and clueless, it'd be a total deus ex machina to have her suddenly change. If she's getting fed up and starts scheming, GRRM better start hinting at it soon.

I think you are totally misreading Sansa's intelligence. She was very naive but that does not mean she was dumb. You can be naive and be very smart. You have to read her POV very carefully because it's very subtle but I think when it's all said and done we are going to find out the she is very smart and combined with her beauty and her name she will end up being one of the most dangerous players of the game.

She figured out that Lyn Cordray was working for Littlefinger when nobody else has a clue.

As for her not wanting to go back to Winterfell did you forget the scene when she built the ice castle of Winterfell or how she thought about how sweet it would be to see Jon again.

[Lee-Sensei]

I totally agree. Sansa is a few points higher than a moron. She knows how to throw dinner parties. She seemed quite excited to LF's plan to marry her to Harry the Heir. Though she never met him. I don't truly believe she cared to be at winterfell, or cares much to go back. She just wants to be some lord's lady and make him tea and lemon cakes. Of all the POV characters, she is the most dull and boring. No plans, no dreams, no hopes, just every bit a normal person just looking upon the world without even mild curiosity. How can someone so unlike any other character exist in ASOIAF? Maybe she's a favor for one of GRRM's loved ones. Since she seems so innocent and clueless, it'd be a total deus ex machina to have her suddenly change. If she's getting fed up and starts scheming, GRRM better start hinting at it soon.

Sansa's become rather clever. She's not a player in the game, yet, but she can and has picked up on things. She's certainly not a moron. She's also made it very clear that she cares about Winterfell and wants to go back.