Jon Snow and the Drowned God

[J. Stargaryen]

Though the focus will eventually shift to Jon Snow, as advertised, I'm going to start by talking about Dany for a moment. Because it's what we already know about her that sets the stage to connect Jon with the Drowned God in the first place.

As you all know, Dany isn't just Daenerys Targaryen. She is Daenerys Stormborn (of House) Targaryen. And the circumstances of her birth link her to the Storm God*, or at least the legendary storm gods. Dany was born during a great summer storm that smashed the Targaryen fleet at anchor and allowed Stannis, a Baratheon of Storm's End, to capture Dragonstone. So there is definitely a link between Dany and the Storm God, which GRRM reinforces with her name, but I would describe it as non-traditional since it is based on a unique event rather than a cultural inheritance.

*(Just to clarify. Technically the Storm God belongs to the ironborn's religion, as the eternal enemy of the Drowned God. But storm gods—as in, gods who went around causing storms—played a prominent role in the origin story of Storm's End's construction. And the castle itself links those legendary powers to the Baratheons. In other words, I think it's bloody obvious that we are meant to connect the Storm God of the ironborn with the Stormlands, (the legendary construction of) Storm's End, Storm lords and Storm kings; Baratheon, Durrandon.)

Much like R'hllor and the Great Other, the Storm God and Drowned God are eternal enemies and opposite numbers. GRRM even hints at this notion by inverting the black and gold colors of the Baratheons and Greyjoys, who are the lords of the Stormlands and Iron Islands. Yin and yang. Because of this relationship between the two gods, no matter how we classify Dany's connection to the Storm God (champion, beneficiary, victim, strictly symbolic), that connection implies a counterpart for the Drowned God, which is where I see a familiar path emerging that leads to Jon Snow.

By "familiar path" I mean that when you pair Jon and the DG, it shouldn't take long to connect death and rebirth as both a major tenet of the ironborn religion and one of the two likely scenarios for Jon following the Ides of Marsh. (No, "He's just dead" isn't a legitimate third option. Don't be ridiculous.) Nobody really knows for sure if he's actually going to die or not, so we have two schools of thought following the attack: 1) he's injured and will eventually recover; 2) he will die, spend some time inhabiting Ghost, and then be resurrected. While the foreshadowing could reasonably be construed as supporting option one figuratively (e.g., maybe along the lines of "kill the boy, and the let the man be born."), I think Jon's literal death and resurrection would make the connection somewhat clearer.

A common thread in Jon Snow resurrection discussions is the sacrifice of Theon Greyjoy. His participation would provide a contrasting parallel with Stannis's involvement in the events surrounding Dany's birth. In other words, a Baratheon and a Greyjoy are present right when the symbolism and/or magic of their regional gods intersects with Dany and Jon's stories. Her birth, his death and rebirth. Speaking of rebirth:

Priest: "Let <person> your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel."
Response: "What is dead may never die."
Priest: "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger." - Ironborn baptism.

Another idea is that Jon's body will be kept in the Wall while he's dead. Well, the Wall is literally a large body of (frozen) water. In the event that Jon's dead body is retrieved from the Wall and he is revived (drowned and resuscitated), we would have what looks an awful lot like an icy version of the ironborn baptism ritual—born again from the sea.

Also, the "Bless him" refrain (3x) stands out to me as intended foreshadowing. Salt, stone, and steel are all connected to the Azor Ahai prophecies, for example.

As far as what this all means, beyond supporting the interpretation that Jon will in fact die, only to be reborn, I'll leave the speculation to others for the moment, except to say that I suspect these two pairs of gods—Storm God & Drowned God, R'hllor & the Great Other—are meant to complement each other in certain, possibly illuminating, ways.

---

Something I've mentioned before, which may or may not be relevant here. There is a repeating through the female line theme with the kings and lords of Storm's End. According to legend the first Storm King, Durran Godsgrief—who also founded House Durrandon and built Storm's End—married the daughter of the sea god and wind goddess. That means the Durrandons can claim divinity, through the female line. Even when the last Storm King died during the Conquest, his blood—including the claim of divinity—continued on through the female line, since his daughter married Orys Baratheon. So, while names and claims have changed over time, the modern day Baratheons can trace their lineage back to a pair of gods, through the female line.

My best guess for now is that this is possible foreshadowing that the Baratheons may die out in name, but live on in blood, through the female line. But, I thought it might be worth mentioning here, since the Storm God is linked to a female character.

[Archmaester Drew]

It seems we have the opposition of elemental forces vying to reach a balance: Fire and ice, earth and air. They are not separate so much as parts of a whole which must come into equilibrium with itself to become stable again (and then perhaps the seasons will become 'normal' again). No 'good' and 'evil', just natural balance. :)

[Trogdor Targaryen]

I had actually been wondering earlier if the Storm God of the Iron born religion had followers, and hadn't realized that Storm's End's history involved "storm god's". Could this also have any significance in how things play out between Dany and the Greyjoy's who are seeking to claim her? I never had considered the relevance of the title "Stormborn."

[King Hodor IV]

You have this all wrong. The drowned god is the god of the Others. "What is dead may never die, but rise harder and stronger" That literally refers to people being killed and resurrected as Wights. Making sacrifices to the drowned god means to kill someone via drowning or throwing them overboard a ship, and this is because their dead body will eventually join the wight army.

[Archmaester Drew]

What puzzles me is we have the Children with the "song of the earth", and then we have the "song of ice and fire" -- ostensibly the Others and R'hllor, respectively -- but is there a "song of the sky" or some such notion that completes the elemental theme? And, how do these all articulate? Will we see Bran (earth) against Jon (ice and fire)? Are there still pieces missing to the puzzle? :)

[Trogdor Targaryen]

You have this all wrong. The drowned god is the god of the Others. "What is dead may never die, but rise harder and stronger" That literally refers to people being killed and resurrected as Wights. Making sacrifices to the drowned god means to kill someone via drowning or throwing them overboard a ship, and this is because their dead body will eventually join the wight army.

R'hllor has dead resurrected as well, so I don't think that it suits to say that this is necessarily the case.

This does however make me think of Patchface who seemed to have been allowed to live by the Drowned God, or perhaps rejected by the Storm God, but Why??? Is the Drowned God the one giving him his prophetic jingles?

And Since I'm going off on a tangent here, Does anyone else see a similarity between Patchface and Moqorro both surviving at sea for days on end and their prophetic visions, not to mentioned tattooed faces?

[J. Stargaryen]

I had actually been wondering earlier if the Storm God of the Iron born religion had followers, and hadn't realized that Storm's End's history involved "storm god's". Could this also have any significance in how things play out between Dany and the Greyjoy's who are seeking to claim her? I never had considered the relevance of the title "Stormborn."

Nobody really follows the Storm God as far as I know, but it's pretty clear that those powers are associated with the Stormlands, Storm's End and the Storm lords/kings.

Durran, the first Storm King. Make sure you read about Elenei too.

You have this all wrong. The drowned god is the god of the Others. "What is dead may never die, but rise harder and stronger" That literally refers to people being killed and resurrected as Wights. Making sacrifices to the drowned god means to kill someone via drowning or throwing them overboard a ship, and this is because their dead body will eventually join the wight army.

Thanks for letting me know. :)

[I'm the Party Pooper]

sorry, what? Where was it stated that ice tastes salty? As far as I know when sea water freezes the salt does not end up in the ice..it should be natural water

[J. Stargaryen]

sorry, what? Where was it stated that ice tastes salty? As far as I know when sea water freezes the salt does not end up in the ice..it should be natural water

ASoS, Bran IV when Sam, Bran and co. are passing through the Black Gate. Now that I read it I'm not sure that the salty tasting water was from the Wall.

Even if it's not the Wall is still frozen water, so the idea is the same; born again from the sea.

Summer followed, sniffing as he went, and then it was Bran’s turn. Hodor ducked, but not low enough. The door’s upper lip brushed softly against the top of Bran’s head, and a drop of water fell on him and ran slowly down his nose. It was strangely warm, and salty as a tear.

[I'm the Party Pooper]

ASoS, Bran IV when Sam, Bran and co. are passing through the Black Gate. Now that I read it I'm not sure that the salty tasting water was from the Wall.

Even if it's not the Wall is still frozen water, so the idea is the same; born again from the sea.

I thought that was coming from the Weirwood Face on the tree door.. you know, tree's lymph/sap .. like a sort of metaphorical "tear" or such.

Because it was both warm and salty, and that's usually how tears are..

..just in time melted ice is surely not warm nor salty..

[J. Stargaryen]

I thought that was coming from the Weirwood Face on the tree door.. you know, tree's lymph/sap .. like a sort of metaphorical "tear" or such.

Because it was both warm and salty, and that's usually how tears are..

..just in time melted ice is surely not warm nor salty..

Yeah, I think I had just misremembered that part. Thanks for pointing it out. :)

[I'm the Party Pooper]

Yeah, I think I had just misremembered that part. Thanks for pointing it out. :)

Thanks to you, I did forget it as well.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Not to get off topic, but how does all this fit with the gods of life and death? The gods of Life are clearly the Old Gods, who exist in living things (plants and animals) while the gods of death are represented by the House of Black and White. The triple axis of polar opposite gods should somehow all be related to the rebirth of Azor Ahai.

[aguy]

the first durrandon married a goddess,and suffered the storm god's wrath in the process, while rhaegar married the queen of love and beauty, and attracted the wrath of the storm lord (and the north)

[J. Stargaryen]

Not to get off topic, but how does all this fit with the gods of life and death? The gods of Life are clearly the Old Gods, who exist in living things (plants and animals) while the gods of death are represented by the House of Black and White. The triple axis of polar opposite gods should somehow all be related to the rebirth of Azor Ahai.

I'm not sure. My focus was on how GRRM might have foreshadowed Jon Snow's death and resurrection in the Drowned God's religion. That was the main idea I was trying to get across.

the first durrandon married a goddess,and suffered the storm god's wrath in the process, while rhaegar married the queen of love and beauty, and attracted the wrath of the storm lord (and the north)

Storm gods will repeatedly smash your house if you make them angry, whereas Storm Lords will smash your House.

[Modesty Lannister]

I like your take on duality of Storm/Drowned God. The link with Jon Snow is too weak to comment.

[J. Stargaryen]

I like your take on duality of Storm/Drowned God. The link with Jon Snow is too weak to comment.

You should probably conserve your energy for the next Mance = Rhaegar thread anyway.

[Modesty Lannister]

You should probably conserve your energy for the next Mance = Rhaegar thread anyway.

Is this really the best you can do? Says a lot about you. There is a excellent thread right now on links between the Ironborn and CotF. That is how a theory should look like. And when you do a topic, don't say "most popular theory" when you have no means to prove it. It is either your theory or it isn't. Whether it is most popular or not, it is not for you to decide. Only moderators can make an educated guess about it. Our job when posting a topic is to elaborate a theory and let the other posters judge it and/or add to it. I said what I liked and what I found too weak to comment, because it is not well argued at all. When you post a theory, you should be prepared to deal with criticism. I wasn't being mean, I was being realistic. As for RT=MR, I never posted a topic on that very issue, but when I do, feel free to criticise it. Now, we are dealing with your theory, which is non existent at this stage. So, I repeat my advice - think it through more thoroughly and avoid unsubstantiated and feebly leading lines like

A common thread in many, if not most, Jon Snow resurrection theories is the sacrifice of Theon Greyjoy

Name which theories, give us links. I see nothing in your topic that I can comment on until I know what you postulate. And postulating that Greyjoy will die to allow Snow to live is fan fiction without any elaboration more substantial than that "it's a common thread". So, no hard feeling on my side at all. I just want to see some evidence of what you are claiming and more clear elaboration of what exactly it is that you are claiming, before I can comment at all.

[Mithras]

A food for thought: Shireen would like a gown of woven silver seaweed, just like the ones Grey King supposedly wore.

Fire Eater suggested that the Grey King represents Jon and Nagga represents Dany.

Nagga and the Grey King

Nagga was the first sea dragon, the mightiest ever to rise from the waves. She fed on krakens and leviathans and drowned whole islands in her wrath, yet the Grey king had slain her.

"The Citadel is not what it was," complained the blond. [Lazy Leo speaking to Sam] They will take anything these days. Dusky dogs and Dornishmen, pig boys, cripples, cretins and now a black-clad whale. And here I thought leviathans were gray.

I think Nagga can be foreshadowing for Dany, a dragon born and reborn in the sea (Narrow Sea and Dothraki Sea). She would get help from the Greyjoy's Iron Fleet for the kraken, and Marwyn given Sam being referred to as a leviathan at the Citadel, and leviathans are grey, the color commonly associated with maesters. I think the island that would be drowned by her forces would be Dragonstone or some other isle on her way back to Westeros. The Grey King could be Jon, where grey is one of the colors of House Stark.

Nagga's ribs became the beams and pillars of his longhall, just as her jaws became his throne . . . From here he ruled both stone and salt, wearing robes of woven seaweed and a tall pale crown made from Nagga's teeth . . . The hall had been warmed by Nagga's living fire, which the Grey King had made his thrall.

Dragons are fire made flesh

I think Jon would receive the overwhelming majority of his military strength, including the dragons, from Dany. Nagga's living fire being entrhalled by the Grey King could point to Dany's dragon being warged by Jon to be made his "thrall."

I go one step further and claim that Jon will marry Shireen. I will post my notes on Jon-Shireen marriage in a seperate thread.

[J. Stargaryen]

Is this really the best you can do? Says a lot about you. There is a excellent thread right now on links between the Ironborn and CotF. That is how a theory should look like. And when you do a topic, don't say "most popular theory" when you have no means to prove it. It is either your theory or it isn't. Whether it is most popular or not, it is not for you to decide. Only moderators can make an educated guess about it. Our job when posting a topic is to elaborate a theory and let the other posters judge it and/or add to it. I said what I liked and what I found too weak to comment, because it is not well argued at all. When you post a theory, you should be prepared to deal with criticism. I wasn't being mean, I was being realistic. As for RT=MR, I never posted a topic on that very issue, but when I do, feel free to criticise it. Now, we are dealing with your theory, which is non existent at this stage. So, I repeat my advice - think it through more thoroughly and avoid unsubstantiated and feebly leading lines like

Name which theories, give us links. I see nothing in your topic that I can comment on until I know what you postulate. And postulating that Greyjoy will die to allow Snow to live is fan fiction without any elaboration more substantial than that "it's a common thread". So, no hard feeling on my side at all. I just want to see some evidence of what you are claiming and more clear elaboration of what exactly it is that you are claiming, before I can comment at all.

Jon Snow resurrection threads.

Theon Greyjoy sacrifice.

Theon sacrifice foreshadowing. TWoW spoilers.

"Theon is my mother's last surviving son. When his brothers died, it shattered her. His death will crush what remains of her... but I have not come to beg you for his life."

"Wise. I am sorry for your mother, but I do not spare the lives of turncloaks. This one, especially. He slew two sons of Eddard Stark. Every northman in my service would abandon me if I showed him any clemency. Your brother must die."

"Then do the deed yourself, Your Grace." The chill in Asha's voice made Theon shiver in his chains. "Take him out across the lake to the islet where the weirwood grows, and strike his head off with that sorcerous sword you bear. That is how Eddard Stark would have done it. Theon slew Lord Eddard's sons. Give him to Lord Eddard's gods. The old gods of the north. Give him to the tree."

And suddenly there came a wild thumping, as the maester's ravens hopped and flapped inside their cages, their black feathers flying as they beat against the bars with loud and raucous caws. "The tree," one squawked, "the tree, the tree," whilst the second screamed only, "Theon, Theon, Theon."

Theon Greyjoy smiled. They know my name, he thought.

The OP is not a theory. It is an explanation of, and speculation about, (potential) foreshadowing. With an emphasis on the fact that the foreshadowing uses different information to arrive at a familiar conclusion.