The end of dragons and the Princess and the Queen

[SandorsRedemption]

In AFFC maester Marwyn claims that the archmaesters are responsible for the extermination of dragons. In the Princess and the Queen however we see how Westeros goes from a situation of plenty of Dragons to a situation where there are only two left without the maesters having any obvious role in this. It's been a while since I have red the Novels as well as TPATQ but does anyone care to shed some light on this matter? Either substantiated with quotes or simply wild speculation, I'm interested in it all. Did the maesters simply kill poor sheepeater and cannibal or were they already scheming prior to the Dance e.g. By influencing dragon's capacity to reproduce (and thereby have something to do with the tragedy at summerhall)? Share your thoughts...

[Eija]

Wild speculation: I sometimes wonder if the relocation of the dragons from Valyria to Westeros had long term consequences for the species, i.e. the dragons as a species do not thrive in Westeros for some reason (lack of volcanic activity?). It's interesting that the first ones to hatch in a long time, hatch in Essos.. :idea:

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The Dance ended with four dragons left alive. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that those dragons born after the Dance were small, stunted, and did not live long. No healthy dragons were born after the Dance. That's what they believe the maesters are responsible for. Probably poisoning the still living dragons, so there would be no healthy eggs anymore.

[SandorsRedemption]

Oh yeah, forgot about that story and the skulls under the red keep. Thnx.

[Knight of the Teabags]

The Dance ended with four dragons left alive. That wasn't the problem. The problem was that those dragons born after the Dance were small, stunted, and did not live long.

Well it is not the problem in itself, but it could well be at the root of it. The four dragons at the end of the Dance are a much diminished gene pool to bred new dragons from, the small stunted dragons born later may well be a result of the dragons becoming as incestial as their Targaryen Masters.

The other thing I have wondered about regarding the two Dance short stories is that the young boy who grows up to be the future Aegon III (the King whose reign the last dragons die off in) loses his own dragon after one desperate flight. As we know one of the main rules of dragon ridiing in Westeros is no one ever rode more than one specific dragon - so if your sole bonded dragon dies before you, you have absolutely no chance of ever getting another one. Regarding Aegon III there may well been an element of 'well if I can't ride a dragon, I am going stop anybody else from'.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Well it is not the problem in itself, but it could well be at the root of it. The four dragons at the end of the Dance are a much diminished gene pool to bred new dragons from, the small stunted dragons born later may well be a result of the dragons becoming as incestial as their Targaryen Masters.

The other thing I have wondered about regarding the two Dance short stories is that the young boy who grows up to be the future Aegon III (the King whose reign the last dragons die off in) loses his own dragon after one desperate flight. As we know one of the main rules of dragon ridiing in Westeros is no one ever rode more than one specific dragon - so if your sole bonded dragon dies before you, you have absolutely no chance of ever getting another one. Regarding Aegon III there may well been an element of 'well if I can't ride a dragon, I am going stop anybody else from'.

Your last statement is not necessarily true. Obviously, Viserys I survived his dragon, Balerion. GRRM's statements about it ("Viserys choose not to bond with another dragon") suggest that, had Viserys I wanted to bond with another dragon, he could have. That would mean that a rider can bond with two dragons, just not with two dragons at once. The first dragon has to die before you can bond with the second one.

Aegon III say his mother being eaten by his uncle's dragon, and that must have been traumatizing. He tried to hatch dragons, but that doesn't mean that he would have needed to bond with one. He had 5 children who could do such. Aegon III seems to have made legitimate attempts, and he succeeded.. the dragons born were just small and stunted, and died young.

That there were fewer dragons left after the Dance, that most likely indeed had influence. Fewer dragons means fewer eggs, after all. And if someone messed with those eggs (meaning, someone messed with the dragon who laid the eggs), that is easier to do with fewer dragons, than with more dragons.

[Amoracchius]

There's also the issue that TPATQ is written from the point of view of a maester. If the maesters were involved in either inciting the Targaryan civil war or stunting the growth of dragons afterwards, the in-universe author of TPATQ would have absolutely no reason to mention it and would probably go out of his way to cover it up.

[Beorn Snow]

Maybe they spotted an oppurtunity after the civil war. Ie. preventing their re-emergence by obfuscating knowledge about their hatching.

Or maybe it´s an unreliable narrator, the maesters imagine they have stopped dragons, magic etc. but really it´s just a cyclical thing they are unable to influence apart from killing an occasional sorcerer and/or dragon.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Actually, a dragon only bonds with one rider at a time, I believe. No other can ride that dragon. Aegon I did not ride his sisters dragons and they did not ride the others.

As far as the Maesters go, did they want to kill off actual dragons or the human dragons? They may have plotted on the Targs to do away with their crazy ass ways. Of course to diminish the Targs, they would need to diminish their powers, including the real dragons.

[Black Dragons]

In AFFC maester Marwyn claims that the archmaesters are responsible for the extermination of dragons. In the Princess and the Queen however we see how Westeros goes from a situation of plenty of Dragons to a situation where there are only two left without the maesters having any obvious role in this. It's been a while since I have red the Novels as well as TPATQ but does anyone care to shed some light on this matter? Either substantiated with quotes or simply wild speculation, I'm interested in it all. Did the maesters simply kill poor sheepeater and cannibal or were they already scheming prior to the Dance e.g. By influencing dragon's capacity to reproduce (and thereby have something to do with the tragedy at summerhall)? Share your thoughts...

You are right about the Wild Dragons Sheepeater and Cannibal they were alive after the war but that about 160 years ago The oldest dragon live to be 200 years old it died of old age. I sure that Cannibal and Sheepeater died years ago, but no one knows when.

[Varamyr6skins]

Truth is no one knows if or when or how they died except of course George RR Martin.

When Danys dragons were born that signified the return of magic to the world, which means that ANY other dragons eggs in the world could theoretically hatch. Danys dragons eggs were most likely not the last eggs in the world.

The fact is there could very well be, most likely even, other dragons out there in the world other than Danys three.

I most definitely believe we will be introduced to new dragons in the story.

I have a theory, on what the dragons will look like based on a Tyrion Chapter ADWD hard cover - pg180

"The clouds in the sky were aglow; pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a Dragon."

There you have it ....George RR M. way of subtly describing us what the dragons we'll be introduced to will look like.

[Amoracchius]

Truth is no one knows if or when or how they died except of course George RR Martin.

When Danys dragons were born that signified the return of magic to the world, which means that ANY other dragons eggs in the world could theoretically hatch. Danys dragons eggs were most likely not the last eggs in the world.

The fact is there could very well be, most likely even, other dragons out there in the world other than Danys three.

I most definitely believe we will be introduced to new dragons in the story.

I have a theory, on what the dragons will look like based on a Tyrion Chapter ADWD hard cover - pg180

"The clouds in the sky were aglow; pink and purple, maroon and gold, pearl and saffron. One looked like a Dragon."

There you have it ....George RR M. way of subtly describing us what the dragons we'll be introduced to will look like.

In fact, we know there are other dragons in Asshai. From Bran's dream in AGOT, before waking up:

"He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the Narrow Sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki Sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai beyond the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

There is also, as you pointed out, Tyrion's observation of something dragon-like in ADWD, and Summer's description of something dragon-like over Winterfell at the end of ACOK. Plus, we don't know what happened to Nettles and Sheepstealer from TPATQ. From Ran: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100284-spoilers-the-princess-and-the-queen-complete-spoilers-discussion/?p=5187998

[Clueless Northman]

I've always wondered if the guy who pushed the mob to attack the Dragon Pit was actually an agent of the Citadel, who hoped to wipe out the dragons in King's Landing.

Well it is not the problem in itself, but it could well be at the root of it. The four dragons at the end of the Dance are a much diminished gene pool to bred new dragons from, the small stunted dragons born later may well be a result of the dragons becoming as incestial as their Targaryen Masters.

Except that all dragons in Westeros seem to come from a group of 3 dragons, so Targ dragons always were inbred, as soon as the Doom hit Valyria.

[Fjordgazer]

Currently on a re-read of TPATQ. The apparent extinction of the dragons was brought about by the Dance, but Aegon III (who we still don't know exactly how he came to sit on the IT) was traumatized by witnessing his mother being eaten by one. It's rumored that he came to loathe them afterwards, hence the belief he took part in poisoning the egg-producers left (Dragonbane). Whether he was aided by the maesters is unknown, but possible.

When he got old, he came to regret his decision, because he tried to concoct a way to hatch the remaining weakling eggs. And then they were extinct. Again, whether the maesters took part in sabotaging his efforts is unkown, but possible.

As to the wild dragons being still alive, i don't know, it's possible (200+ years of age sounds reasonable for a dragon), but i have a feeling we won't see them if that's the case.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Currently on a re-read of TPATQ. The apparent extinction of the dragons was brought about by the Dance, but Aegon III (who we still don't know exactly how he came to sit on the IT) was traumatized by witnessing his mother being eaten by one. It's rumored that he came to loathe them afterwards, hence the belief he took part in poisoning the egg-producers left (Dragonbane). Whether he was aided by the maesters is unknown, but possible.

When he got old, he came to regret his decision, because he tried to concoct a way to hatch the remaining weakling eggs. And then they were extinct. Again, whether the maesters took part in sabotaging his efforts is unkown, but possible.

As to the wild dragons being still alive, i don't know, it's possible (200+ years of age sounds reasonable for a dragon), but i have a feeling we won't see them if that's the case.

Balerion the Black Dread died around the age of 200 of old age. So I'd say that roughly 200 years would be the oldest a dragon can get.. Making it unlikely that one of the four dragons that survived the Dance are still alive today.

[Fjordgazer]

Balerion the Black Dread died around the age of 200 of old age. So I'd say that roughly 200 years would be the oldest a dragon can get.. Making it unlikely that one of the four dragons that survived the Dance are still alive today.

I knew that, but we don't know if he died purely of old age. Perhaps he was debilitated by some battle wound(s) or something. Perhaps he died during the first years of his "senility", but some other dragon might survive a few decades longer as an elderly. This is purely speculative.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I knew that, but we don't know if he died purely of old age. Perhaps he was debilitated by some battle wound(s) or something. Perhaps he died during the first years of his "senility", but some other dragon might survive a few decades longer as an elderly. This is purely speculative.

As GRRM personally stated that Balerion died of old age, there won't have been any battle wounds.. Otherwise, the battle wounds would have been stated as the cause of death ;)

[Fjordgazer]

As GRRM personally stated that Balerion died of old age, there won't have been any battle wounds.. Otherwise, the battle wounds would have been stated as the cause of death ;)

I didn't know he said that explicitly! In any case, i like to think dragons in this mythology are like real-life giant tortoises in that regard (or humans: if you think about it, a 110 year old person has lived half his life as an old person).

I still think it wouldn't be out of the blue (in the sense of his lifespan at least) if we suddenly have a "Bloodraven moment" with Sheepstealer.