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Flaming Swords, Comets, Nissa Nissa, Ned Stark, Khal Drog, & Jon Snow...


addicted to snow

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I will attempt to be concise… Should I quote anything, I'm doing so from memory, so I would advise you to look it up before relying upon my memory.



I was just thinking about the part of Beric Dondarrion. The way that he would use his own blood to make his sword burn… What was GRRM purpose / goal with the flaming sword? The flaming sword had a profound effect upon The Hound, who hates fire & is terrified by even the thought of flame, but GRRM did not need to have Beric's blood cause a sword to burn to convey the Hound's fear of fire. There has to be more to this...


  • Think about it, did Beric's flaming sword advance the plot in any way that a wildfire-flaming-sword could not have??? Nope, it did not...
  • & we all agree that GRRM does not include meaningless crap in his books - in other words, GRRM didn't simply make the sword burn to add excitement to the encounter.

One can only conclude that Beric's Flaming Sword is a perfect example of GRRM laying to groundwork (or precedence, if you will) for future supernatural plot developments...


  • Azor Ahi is said to weld a flaming sword…
  • We have seen precedence for a flaming sword, one that is not fueled by glamours or wildfire - Beric's Sword
  • Apparently the Blood of someone who carries the "Kiss of Fire" has a lot of power...
  • As of right now, there is only one character in the books that is confirmed to be carrying the "Kiss of Fire"... Catelyn Stark / Stoneheart...
  • Catelyn Stark seems to have been set up rather conveniently by GRRM to be Azor Ahi's 'Nissa Nissa', It seems to me that her blood will fuel Lightbringer... Because as of book 5, she is the only candidate, no one else's blood can make a sword burn.

Please bear with me, I explain in more detail below, but if Catelyn is the story's Nissa Nissa, then it seems to me that somehow Ned has to be associated with Azor Ahi.



At the end of AGOTs, MMD was in Dany's Tent "dancing with the dead" - the Great Wolf (Ned) & the Burning Man (Khal Drogo). The Presence of the Great Wolf in Essos got my attention & it occurs to me that the Author never really explained exactly what was going on or what the Great Wolf was doing in that tent. I believe that this is huge Red Flag that says that GRRM wanted the reader to witness this event, but to not understand it until the last or 2nd to last book of the series explains the mechanics of what took place... In short, I feel like that magic ritual was directly related to Azor Ahai.



I see the Red Comet as being an anomaly that GRRM based on a real world event - Caesar's Comet. The populous of Rome believed that Caesar's Comet was the actual soul of Julious Caesar. Unfortunately, Caesar's Comet never returned, it is speculated that it flew into the sun, but I think that the Red Comet in GRRM's Tale will in fact return. I think that it carries the souls of the "Great Wolf" (Ned Stark) & the "Burning Man" (Khal Drogo) & I believe that these souls are melding into one. Note: This is why Khal Drogo's soul was missing when MMD brought him back to life. When the time is right, the Comet will reappear low on the horizon & redeposit Azor Ahai in the hour when he is needed the most.



"When the Red Star Bleeds & yada, yada, yada, Azor Ahi will be reborn amongst salt & smoke"



When the sun rises in the West & sets in the East,


When the seas go dry & mountains blow in the wind like leaves,


When your womb quickens & bear a living child,


Then He will return & not before"



Dany & 99% of the audience took MMD's 'Prophesy' (above) to be a 'a fancy way of saying that Khal Drogo is never returning'. However, you are sadly mistaken if you think that GRRM would overlook such a great opportunity to have the 'fancy way of saying never' turn out to foretell the return of the Khal.



Another prophesy was offered by a wood's witch, stating that the Azor Ahi would be born of Rhaegar's line (or something like that).



Well, if R+L=J is true (& GRRM would have a difficult time not making it true considering the foreshadowing) then Jon Snow is of the correct line & will likely provide the body that Azor Ahi is reborn into... Remember how GRRM likes to say that prophesy will bite you in the ass, well I think this is one such case.



I believe that the purpose of the ADWDs Prologue was to, among other things, let the reader understand exactly what was happening when Jon would later die. Jon has gone into Ghost, where he has started his "2nd Life" - He is currently Trapped in Ghost & separated from his body.



Lots of foreshadowing place Ghost/Jon & Val leaving Castle Black headed North of the wall in the early chapters of TWOW. This is important because it will put the Wall & its magical wards between Jon's Body & Jon's soul (traveling in Ghost). GRRM has mentioned in a SSM that there is a very specific plot devise in the fact that the Wall blocks Warging communications between body & soul. Should Mel work her magic to patch Jon's body up & restore it to life, Jon's soul would be unable to reunite with his body due to the wall. The title of a 2007 Not-a-blog post 'back to his First Life' Suggest that this plot device will be the key to freeing Jon from being bound to Ghost - so that he will not slowly fade away as Varamyr suggested would happen. I'm getting off-topic.



If Jon's body is revived, but his soul is unavailable to reach it, then the body will be in a vegetable-like state, just as Khal Drogo was. I think it is really safe to assume that Jon's living body is thrown into the Ice Cells where it will be forgotten about for an extended period of time & freeze (this is supported by a generous amount of clues, foreshadowing, & by the great detail GRRM went to describe the Ice Cells in ADWDs - making the cells central to the upcoming plot). I think that Jon's body will sit there, frozen, until Dany arrives at the wall, discovers a blue rose growing from a chink in the Ice, and performs some sort of instinctive ritual (like when she hatched her dragons) just as the Red Comet reappears low on the horizon... & Azor Ahi will be reborn into Jon's empty body...



Given the dual personalities of Azor Ahi discussed above, he will know Jon's true history & will exploit Jon's heritage to the fullest. Possibly even gaining control of the Seven Kingdoms... First he will track down Lady Stoneheart who i think will be found at Widow's Watch & put an end to her suffering.



GRRM has certainly been preparing his audience to accept resurrections… I think that all these resurrections are leading up to a single Grand Resurrection - The Return of Azor Ahi...



What does this mean for Jon? Well, it means that R+L=J was correct all along, but Jon is not the savior that all the fan boy/girls dream that he will be… Jon will Live on in Ghost & when his body is revived, Jon's 2nd life will come to end. He will be 'back to his First Life' (The title of a 2007 Not-a-blog post), but no longer bound to Ghost & no longer slowly fading away, loosing his individuality to his host. Jon will be free to take other animals &/or people if he is strong enough to take them… There happens to be one really, really strong human who has already been broken-in from a warg/skinchanging standpoint by Bran & would be really easy for Jon to take over, if he were to stumble across this character (Hodor) at some point in the TWOW… After all, Mel saw Jon as a man, tun a wolf, then a man again... I think Jon's new Human form will be Hodor, Who GRRM has prepared for this role from day one. The strongest man in Westeros with Jon's lightweight Valyrian Steele bastard sword would be pretty formidable...



So Jon Snow's story is not over, not by any means… In fact, the circumstances laid out above will award Jon with great powers - not being bound to a single body… Jon will be free to 'jump' from host to host and collect skins in the same way that Varamyr-Six-Skins did. It is interesting that in the ADWDs Prologue Varamyr, while still in his First Life, could simultaneously see through the eyes of all his wolves while he was running with his pack. Being able to observe a battle or altercation from a dozen vantage points will be quite an advantage that Jon will enjoy… Jon will be able to bind entire armies to his will - if he so chooses… Not unlike the powers that tales assign to the Nights King, who was said to use 'Strange Sorceries' to bind the watchmen to his will… These 'Strange Sorceries' are nothing more than advanced warging / skinchanging abilities - we have already seen Varamyr utilize these powers & we will see Jon exploit these rare abilities to their fullest extent...



From Book I, Chapter I


"The ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is." That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them...

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Interesting ideas. Drogo's ghost rides a great grey stallion into the nightlands, which is of Stark colors.



BTW;



Beric's sword, which is enchanted by blood was much better than the wildfired swords of Thoros but it still gave away in the end by burning and weakening. Perhaps he was not the true person, although the method was true. A sword that is burning but not being consumed by fire is needed.



Another thing;



Arthur Dayne told Jaime that blood is the seal of their devotion and all knights must bleed. I thin given the Dayne's ancient history, there might be more to this practice/belief, something predating the Andals.


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There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai Karl Ned come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.



Behold! A sign was promised, and now a sign is seen! Behold Lightbringer! Azor Ahai Karl Ned has come again! All hail the Warrior of Fire! All hail the Son of Fire!



I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai Karl Ned, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.



When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai Karl Ned shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone.


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  • 3 months later...

{snip} Think about it, did Beric's flaming sword advance the plot in any way that a non-flaming could not have??? Nope, it did not... {snip}

Would argue against this point. The flaming sword did advance the plot. Without the flaming sword the Hound just would have slaughtered Beric in two seconds. The flames makes both Arya and we readers sympathize with/for the Hound.

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I will attempt to be concise… Should I quote anything, I'm doing so from memory, so I would advise you to look it up before relying upon my memory.

I was just thinking about the part of Beric Dondarrion. The way that he would use his own blood to make his sword burn… What was GRRM purpose / goal with the flaming sword? The flaming sword had a profound effect upon The Hound, who hates fire & is terrified by even the thought of flame, but GRRM did not need to have Beric's blood cause a sword to burn to convey the Hound's fear of fire. There has to be more to this...

  • Think about it, did Beric's flaming sword advance the plot in any way that a non-flaming could not have??? Nope, it did not...

& we all agree that GRRM does not include meaningless crap in his books - in other words, GRRM didn't simply make the sword burn to add excitement to the encounter.

One can only conclude that Beric's Flaming Sword is a perfect example of GRRM laying to groundwork (or precedence, if you will) for future supernatural plot developments...

  • Azor Ahi is said to weld a flaming sword…

We have seen precedence for a flaming sword, one that is not fueled by glamours or wildfire - Beric's Sword

Apparently the Blood of someone who carries the "Kiss of Fire" has a lot of power...

As of right now, there is only one character in the books that is confirmed to be carrying the "Kiss of Fire"... Catelyn Stark / Stoneheart...

Catelyn Stark seems to have been set up rather conveniently by GRRM to be Azor Ahi's 'Nissa Nissa', It seems that her blood will fuel Lightbringer...

Of Course, Catelyn could only be Nissa Nissa in the event that the "Great Wolf" & the "Burning Man" seen dancing with MMD in Dany's Tent, together are Azor Ahi...

--

I see the Red Comet as being an anomaly that GRRM based on a real world event - Caesar's Comet. The populous of Rome believed that Caesar's Comet was the actual soul of Julious Caesar. Unfortunately, Caesar's Comet never returned, it is speculated that it flew into the sun, but I think that the Red Comet in GRRM's Tale will in fact return. I think that it carries the souls of the "Great Wolf" (Ned Stark) & the "Burning Man" (Khal Drogo) & I believe that these souls are melding into one (an entity that henceforth shall be named Khal Ned). When the time is right, the Comet will reappear & deposit Khal Ned on Westeros as Azor Ahi Reborn...

"When the Red Star Bleeds & yada, yada, yada, Azor Ahi will be reborn amongst salt & smoke"

"When the Sun Rises in the West & Sets in the East, When the… yada, yada, yada… Then He will return & not before"

--

The Prophesies suggest that Khal Ned will be reborn into someone of Targaryen decent (I really don't much get into the whole R+L=J & Targ Love Madness, so I cannot recall the specific line of Targs), & it will be Jon Snow's body who Khal Ned is reborn into. While Jon is warged into Ghost & doing his thing North of the wall, Mel will utilize MMD-like magic (Not Thoros-Like Magic) to bring Jon's body back to life. However, Jon's soul will be gone, in the wolf, and the books have been clear that Warg / Skinchanger communications / connections are thoroughly blocked by the wall. This will leave Jon's body alive, but in a 'vegetable-like' state, not unlike the state that we saw Khal Drogo's body in. Jon's living but empty body will be thrown into the Ice Cells where tons & tons of foreshadowing suggest that it will remain for an extended period of time (perhaps most of, if not all of TWOW).

I don't know the specifics on how Jon's body will come to be inhabited by Khal Ned, perhaps there will be another MMD-like ceremony? Perhaps Castle Black will burn & the significant volumes of salt that Jon noted in the store rooms under the ice cells will come into play? I do know that the Red Comet will be bright on the horizon though, and I also know that GRRM has certainly been preparing his audience to accept resurrections… I think that all these resurrections are leading up to a single Grand Resurrection - The Return of Khal Ned...

--

What does this mean for Jon? Well, it means that R+L=J was correct all along, but Jon is not the savior that all the fan boy/girls dream that he will be… Jon will Live on in Ghost & when his body is revived, Jon's 2nd life will come to end. He will be 'back to his First Life' (The title of a 2007 Not-a-blog post), but no longer bound to Ghost & no longer slowly fading away, loosing his individuality to his host. Jon will be free to take other animals &/or people if he is strong enough to take them… There happens to be one really, really strong human who has already been broken-in from a warg/skinchanging standpoint by Bran & would be really easy for Jon to take over, if he were to stumble across this character at some point in the TWOW…

So Jon Snow's story is not over, not by any means… In fact, the specific set of circumstances laid out above will award Jon with great powers - not being bound to a single body… Jon will be free to 'jump' from host to host and collect skins in the same way that Varamyr Six Skins did. It is interesting that in the ADWDs Prologue Varamyr, while still in his First Life, could simultaneously see through the eyes of all his wolves while he was running with his pack. Being able to observe a battle or altercation from a dozen vantage points will be quite an advantage that Jon will enjoy… Jon will be able to bind entire armies to his will - if he so chooses… Not unlike the powers that tales assign to the Nights King, who was said to use 'Strange Sorceries' bind the watchmen to his will… These 'Strange Sorceries' are nothing more than advanced warging / skinchanging abilities - we have already seen Varamyr utilize these powers & we will see Jon exploit these rare abilities to their fullest extent...

I like it, I really like it!

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  • 1 month later...

Not a bad post... Definitely well though-out...

This is where you went full-crackpot... Never go full crackpot!

I think this is where the theory became too "crackpot" for me.

Given the dual personalities of Azor Ahi discussed above, he will know Jon's true history & will exploit Jon's heritage to the fullest. Possibly even gaining control of the Seven Kingdoms... First he will track down Lady Stoneheart who i think will be found at Widow's Watch & put an end to her suffering.

GRRM has certainly been preparing his audience to accept resurrections… I think that all these resurrections are leading up to a single Grand Resurrection - The Return of Azor Ahi...

What does this mean for Jon? Well, it means that R+L=J was correct all along, but Jon is not the savior that all the fan boy/girls dream that he will be… Jon will Live on in Ghost & when his body is revived, Jon's 2nd life will come to end. He will be 'back to his First Life' (The title of a 2007 Not-a-blog post), but no longer bound to Ghost & no longer slowly fading away, loosing his individuality to his host. Jon will be free to take other animals &/or people if he is strong enough to take them… There happens to be one really, really strong human who has already been broken-in from a warg/skinchanging standpoint by Bran & would be really easy for Jon to take over, if he were to stumble across this character (Hodor) at some point in the TWOW… After all, Mel saw Jon as a man, tun a wolf, then a man again... I think Jon's new Human form will be Hodor, Who GRRM has prepared for this role from day one. The strongest man in Westeros with Jon's lightweight Valyrian Steele bastard sword would be pretty formidable...

So Jon Snow's story is not over, not by any means… In fact, the circumstances laid out above will award Jon with great powers - not being bound to a single body… Jon will be free to 'jump' from host to host and collect skins in the same way that Varamyr-Six-Skins did. It is interesting that in the ADWDs Prologue Varamyr, while still in his First Life, could simultaneously see through the eyes of all his wolves while he was running with his pack. Being able to observe a battle or altercation from a dozen vantage points will be quite an advantage that Jon will enjoy… Jon will be able to bind entire armies to his will - if he so chooses… Not unlike the powers that tales assign to the Nights King, who was said to use 'Strange Sorceries' to bind the watchmen to his will… These 'Strange Sorceries' are nothing more than advanced warging / skinchanging abilities - we have already seen Varamyr utilize these powers & we will see Jon exploit these rare abilities to their fullest extent...

From Book I, Chapter I

I don't foresee Jon being able to warg to such an extent that you describe. I think that Jon being revived without access to his soul/Ghost would have negative consequences, to say the least. I'll venture something else more crackpot and predict (if your theory is correct) that UnJon would be the Night's King and his soul/Ghost would somehow be Azor Ahai Reborn.

I also doubt that Jon and (Un)Cat will see or meet each other again. However, with your theory in mind, Cat does seem to be a very possible Nissa Nissa. The importance of the original Nissa Nissa was that she was who/what Azor Ahai valued the most. Cat was hardly "valuable" to Jon. To Sansa or Arya on the other hand...

Anyway, interesting theory!

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  • 2 months later...

Hey there addicted to snow. You've some good ideas here, no doubt. Dany sees the comet as the first star in the sky when Drogo dies, meaning it is his star and represents him, symbolically at least. I do tend to think the "sun rises in the west / mountains blow in the wind" is more than a fancy way of saying never. I also think the comet's return will have something to do with Jon's ressurection. The Dothraki believe the stars are a fiery hoard of dead khals. In fact, George uses fiery horses as an allusion to dragons in many places in the book, so I think that's what we are seeing here - the horses representing the fire of the comet. But comets are of course dirty balls of rock and ice which only appear to be afire, so they really are a great metaphor for the union of ice and fire. As is Jon, child of ice and fire, whom we see in his Azor Ahai dream armored in black ice and holding a fiery red sword.

Now your idea that Ned's soul is associated with the comet is interesting. I happen to think Ned's sword is Lightbringer, which of course is symbolically and metaphorically equivalent to the red comet. If Lightbringer is a soul-devouring sword (Nissa's soul went in to it), then Ned's soul may be inside of the two swords made from Ice, on some level. Now this is interesting - Ned's sword represents the comet, Drogo's soul is associated with the comet, and Ned's potentially with his sword.

As for the idea that you need fire wight blood to ignite a sword, this is fascinating. I can't agree or disagree immediately (a good habit to have actually) but it fits with certain other concepts I have... Such as the idea that the original Nissa Nissa was actually the formerly existent second moon of the Qarthine legend, which was a molten fire moon. It seems that the Lightbringer comet exploded the Nissa Nissa moon, using her fiery blood to set the sword afire - not unlike Beric's technique. "Black blood" appears many places in ASOAIF, and they are usually associated with the moon via clever metaphor - it seems that in some way, the moon was destroyed, black blood flowed, pieces of the moon hit Planetos, and some were drowned in the sea. But I digress. Stoneheart's fire blood is indee a good candidate to light a sword on fire - and wouldn't you know it, Brienne, daughter of the Evenstar (a name for Venus, which is where George borrowed his Morningstar / Lightbringer symbolism) is all set to stab Stoneheart with one half of Lightbringer. So Stoneheart doesn't need to make it to the Wall (not really plausible) - Lightbringer is coming to her. After that, I would expect Brienne to end up at the Wall with that sword. Will Jon wield it? Maybe. Maybe. But it could be that multiple people are playing the combined role of Azor Ahai, all with different forms of Lightbringer. Dany with her dragons, Brienne with her sword, Jon himself as Lightbringer - the unity of ice and fire (the ice dragon?). So it's hard to say exactly how these things will play out, but the pieces are in place.

Have you read my astronomy theories? If not, you should give it a whirl. Not only are they interesting and well written (chuckles), they might help you make sense of the ideas and connections you are seeing. Your ideas gave me some ideas, there some overlap here. Would love to see what you think after reading, to see if helps you build on your ideas here. Cheers. Links in my sig.

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As is Jon, child of ice and fire, whom we see in his Azor Ahai dream armored in black ice and holding a fiery red sword.

According to my Theory, That is Azor Ahi reborn into Jon's Body, armored in Black Ice & carrying a flaming sword in Jon's dream... The 2nd 1/2 of the dream, when Jon is @ Winterfell, chopping off Bran's head with Longclaw - I think this is the real Jon Snow (probably in Hodor's body, but we shall see)...

Now your idea that Ned's soul is associated with the comet is interesting. I happen to think Ned's sword is Lightbringer, which of course is symbolically and metaphorically equivalent to the red comet. If Lightbringer is a soul-devouring sword (Nissa's soul went in to it), then Ned's soul may be inside of the two swords made from Ice, on some level. Now this is interesting - Ned's sword represents the comet, Drogo's soul is associated with the comet, and Ned's potentially with his sword.

Interesting...

I think that the Magic ritual we see MMD perform where the Dead are seen dancing in Dany's tent has something to do with Azor Ahi... What was Ned's soul coin on the other side of the world in Dany's tent anyway? Something happened there & 4 books later it has still yet to be explained. This suggest to me that something important was going on.

Why were the Great Wolf & the Burning Man Dancing?

& as to Nissa Nissa, lady Stone Heart is the only possible candidate... she is the only person (currently living) who can make a sword blade catch fire by blood along... So if Nissa Nissa is Lady StoneHeart, then Ned Must be Azor Ahi, or at least some component of Azor Ahi...

As for the idea that you need fire wight blood to ignite a sword, this is fascinating. I can't agree or disagree immediately (a good habit to have actually) but it fits with certain other concepts I have... Such as the idea that the original Nissa Nissa was actually the formerly existent second moon of the Qarthine legend, which was a molten fire moon. It seems that the Lightbringer comet exploded the Nissa Nissa moon, using her fiery blood to set the sword afire - not unlike Beric's technique. "Black blood" appears many places in ASOAIF, and they are usually associated with the moon via clever metaphor - it seems that in some way, the moon was destroyed, black blood flowed, pieces of the moon hit Planetos, and some were drowned in the sea. But I digress. Stoneheart's fire blood is indee a good candidate to light a sword on fire - and wouldn't you know it, Brienne, daughter of the Evenstar (a name for Venus, which is where George borrowed his Morningstar / Lightbringer symbolism) is all set to stab Stoneheart with one half of Lightbringer. So Stoneheart doesn't need to make it to the Wall (not really plausible) - Lightbringer is coming to her. After that, I would expect Brienne to end up at the Wall with that sword. Will Jon wield it? Maybe. Maybe. But it could be that multiple people are playing the combined role of Azor Ahai, all with different forms of Lightbringer. Dany with her dragons, Brienne with her sword, Jon himself as Lightbringer - the unity of ice and fire (the ice dragon?). So it's hard to say exactly how these things will play out, but the pieces are in place.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out...

Have you read my astronomy theories? If not, you should give it a whirl. Not only are they interesting and well written (chuckles), they might help you make sense of the ideas and connections you are seeing. Your ideas gave me some ideas, there some overlap here. Would love to see what you think after reading, to see if helps you build on your ideas here. Cheers. Links in my sig.

I'm planning on checking them out tonight or in the morning...

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Take your time. If you have a Mac, it's not a bad idea to highlight the text and use the speech function. I recommend the voice "Alex," it's the best by far. What I'm saying is... they're kinda long. But good - just wide ranging, and I tried to use a lot of text because I'm proposing some seemingly far-fetched things. Anyway... thanks for reading.



In Jon's dream he's at the Wall the whole time, it doesn't switch to Winterfell. And he kills Robb, not Bran, and declares himself the Lord of Winterfell. I'll pull the quote in a sec.


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  • 2 weeks later...

Take your time. If you have a Mac, it's not a bad idea to highlight the text and use the speech function. I recommend the voice "Alex," it's the best by far. What I'm saying is... they're kinda long. But good - just wide ranging, and I tried to use a lot of text because I'm proposing some seemingly far-fetched things. Anyway... thanks for reading.

In Jon's dream he's at the Wall the whole time, it doesn't switch to Winterfell. And he kills Robb, not Bran, and declares himself the Lord of Winterfell. I'll pull the quote in a sec.

Dude, How did I not know that Macs have a speech function? this is my 13th MBP, you would think that I would have found that by now!!!

Thanks

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Dude, How did I not know that Macs have a speech function? this is my 13th MBP, you would think that I would have found that by now!!!

Thanks

Oh yeah it's a godsend for long theories. Again, you have to use the voice Alex, it's much better than the others. Anyway let me know what you think.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Here isa post that made on another board...

I am just curious. Where are you getting 9 books?

One of the European publishers has already let it slip that there will be more than 2 books remaining...

The Story is still expanding... there are so many loose ends to tie up that it will take at least 3000 or more pages...

There's just too much story left to tell & I like to monitor GRRM Writing style, techniques & whatnot; and there is just no way he gets it finished in under 9 books... I have never understood why this observation (9 books) always gets so much resistance...

Bold 1 - I suppose that is more a matter of opinion. Prophesies (even medieval prophesies) were really vague and touch on certain elements. Modern day fortune tellers (not suggesting that I believe them) well call out vague references as well. The idea behind a prophet or psychic is that they receive hazy images with clues that cannot be fully understood until the prophesied event actually occurs or so people think. Even the prophecy that Joan D'Arc's contemporaries relied on (Venerable Bede, etc) were not clear and those who believed in Joan sort of went "Oh yes it's her, she sort of fits it". So no I do not think it would be lazy writing as much as it is the nature of the prophesy and the information gleaned from the vision, etc.

GRRM has always maintained that prophesy is tricky, prophesy will bite you in the ass, & prophesy always gets filled in the damnedest ways... So I interpret this to mean that we should EXPECT MAJOR TWISTS in how the ASOIAF Prophesies get filled... For Example: The Reader is given a dream/vision of Jon Snow atop the wall, wearing Black Ice & holding a flaming sword... Most readers would only interpret this to support the idea that Jon is AAR... I, on the other hand, feel that GRRM gave us this vision too early & too easily for that to be the true meaning... Now, I fully expect to see that scene play out in the books - Jon on the wall, flaming sword, black ice... However, if Jon is about to become separated from his body (probably never to return), and anything can happen in this world full of seemingly limitless magic... I can guarantee you, based upon the way that GRRM writes that when the scene atop the wall does play out, it will NOT be Jon Snow inside Jon's old body...

That probably sounds crazy to you, but we have to EXPECT MAJOR TWISTS!!! That is the only possible twist that ties up all the loose ends, prophesies, etc (in my opinion at least)...

---

Yes, in our world, prophets & the like are usually very vague, thus increasing that likelihood that their prophesies can be interpreted as being fulfilled. On the other hand, in Westeros magic is a very real thing & Prophets are supposedly offering real prophesies (though it could be a hoax, I don't think that is the case, but I know people who do). When you are relaying a real prophesy, there is no need to muddy the waters.

---

My personal conviction is that 'Born Amongst Salt & Smoke' will be fairly literal & these items will be fairly significant... I think that tears from one man crying hardly constitutes salt, and steam rising when warm blood meets cold air definitely does not constitute smoke...

If the prophet said 'Born Amongst Salt & Smoke' then their had to be enough salt & enough smoke present in the prophet's vision/dream/whatever for the prophet to identify the salt & smoke. Steam from a wound & a tear seem very insignificant to me, at least from this standpoint... Now the tons of salt GRRM went out of his way to say was stored down in the wyrmways, that has some substance & would be significant enough for the prophet to take note.

---

AAR was said to be 'Born Amongst Salt & Smoke'. Jon was not being born in his last chapter, much to the contrary, he was dying...

& he must die in order to undergo the character development that is in store for him...


[Possible spoiler for those who have not red the Farseer Trilogy]

Yes I get the Valamyr and Robb stuff, but I am not sure that will happen exactly here. For me, those scenes stand out as huge beacons of light, and soon as Jon is stabbed people immediately turn to that. Which is why I have a tendency to see it as RH. Also it is very, very Hobbish. I have a difficult time believing that Martin will basically take Hobb's chapters and make them Jon. Fitz lives in his wolf for a long time before he is completely healed at the beginning of the second book.

I don't know about the Red Herring in the ADWDs Prologue... GRRM uses Prologues & Epilogues for his information dumps... The reader was being taught the mechanics to warging/skinchanging, the limits, the bounds, the abominations. The reader was being taught what a '2nd life' is & how a character might arrive in his 2nd life. Martin gave us this information because he wants us to understand it because we are going o see it happen again. I think that we saw it again in Jon's last chapter...

Bold 2 - yes he cannot see his back. But Martin is pretty consistent about mentioning blood and pain even in when the character cannot see the wound. But I will give you that there could possibly be blood.

Jon felt no pain because he dead... His consciousness was already in route to Ghost...


Bold 3 - Again this one is a matter of opinion, and I am sure there are plenty of people in your boat who feel the same. I personally think between Beric, LSH, Robert Strong, and for that matter the wights (though these are more or less a different sort) there is plenty of resurrection incidents in the story. SInce I do think there is too much, I think Martin goes a different direction. But that is more or less my opinion on resurrection. I also personally feel that, if were discussion amateur writing, that having to have 3,4,5 cases of resurrection to prepare readers for a big one kind of fits that bill. It would seem much more palatable if the concept was out of reach and somewhat of a myth in Westeros derived by the first men or CotF or something, and then somehow it occurs in the north. "Oh dam it can happen". Instead of "See people I have brought all these people back to life, so don't worry I can bring Jon back to". Again everyone has an opinion on this matter and personal taste, but for me that is terrible. If it happens, it happens. Just an opinion. However, that is not the foundation to my argument, it is the fact that the wounds are not as dreadful as one may think.

I understand your thoughts regarding resurrections & you are not alone... though the resurrections do no really bother me...

I do feel that reader is being primed for a "Grand Resurrection" & I don't think that it is amateurish to prepare the audience for supernatural occurrences that might take place... For example, long before any real magic is viewed in the LotRs, the audience learns that magic does in fact exists... The readers need to know that resurrections are possible if the author is planning on doing something really big that the audience will never expect... But it is not Jon who will be resurrected in the "Grand Resurrection", though the figure will be reborn into Jon's body...

---

While on the subject of prophesies...

  1. Consider the Nissa Nissa Prophesy... she was stabbed in the heart & the sword burned from then on... We have only seen one character in the entire series who's blood could ignite a word & that was Beric (when he carried the Flame of life - or whatever it was called). It should be noted that thus far, Beric's flaming sword did not advance the plot in any way whatsoever that GRRM could not have achieved from using wildfire on the blade. We know that GRRM does not include things in his books for nothing, so there must be some sort of plot point to Beric's blood causing a sword to burn... Well, now that Flame has passed to Catelyn Stark, making her the only character in the series who can possibly fulfill the role of Nissa Nissa... AAR is supposed to love NIssa Nissa with all his heart & the only person who loved Catelyn Stark with all their heart was Ned Stark... Ned Stark coming back, being reborn into Jon Snow's discarded body - that is the kind of "Grand Ressurection" that I'm suggesting will unfold, and that why I think the audience needs to be properly prepared...
  2. MMD's prophesy to Dany: "When the sun rises in the West & sets in the East... ...Then He [Khal Drogo] will return, and not before... Dany (and 99.9% of the audience) interpreted MMD's words as 'a fancy way of saying Never.' However GRRM would never overlook the opportunity to make such a 'hidden' prophesy come true. Doing stuff like that is like heroin to GRRM.

So we have 2 prominent characters who died at the end of Book 1, 2 characters who's possible return was either prophesied or can be linked to prophesy. It just so happens that the Souls/Spirits of these two charters were last seen dancing with MMD in Dany's Tent the night that Khal Drogo was brought back to life (brought back to life, but his soul was absent)... What happened in that tent? Why was Ned Stark (who died on the other side of the map) dancing with Khal Drogo? It was never explained to the reader what exactly took place here... We don't know... Martin does not want us to know... This had something to do with Azor Ahi...

I said all of this to say that I think that the Red Comet will return & Ned Stark &/or Khal Drogo will be reborn into Jon's body, which is about to be frozen in the ice cells (tons of foreshadowing all the way back to early AGoTs suggest that Jon's body will be frozen for an extended period of time in the Ice Cells... There is a link in my signature if you are interested in this post... Sorry that I strayed off topic & started talking about prophesy...

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There are some who believe that Melisandre could also have received the Kiss of Fire as part of her training, and that she is in fact as undead as Beric and Catelyn was/is and that she glamours herself just as she did Mance.



By her own POVs in Dance, she doesn't eat much and does not require sleep.



Nice job, BTW, at keeping your own six-month-old OP alive and kicking, lol.

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