Who poisoned Joffrey, and when and how?

[unitron]

The "Tywin was poisoned"* theories got me thinking maybe it was Mace Tyrell who did it while Tywin was busy keeping an eye on Oberyn Martell.

Part of the reason for thinking it was that his mother had already poisoned Joffrey.

But I thought I'd better go back and make sure I was on solid ground there, and, rereading the Purple Wedding chapter, I'm having trouble making a solid case that it was her, despite the business with the hair net.

It's generally assumed that the poison was the same as that which backfired on Cressen, which acts quite quickly.

(Quickly enough that the poison would have had to have been in the last wine Joffrey drank, or in Tyrion's pigeon pie on which he at first appeared to have choked.)

It's also generally assumed it was in the wedding chalice.

Unless Margaery was somehow immune to the poison, none of the Tyrell's are likely to risk putting it in something of which there was any chance that they both would consume, like drinking from the wedding chalice together, or sharing a lemon cake or something.

(For a moment I thought Margaery's telling him not to use his new sword to cut the pie was to re-direct him to Payne's sword and a contact poison, but she helped hold that sword to do the cutting)

Tyrion's seat is about a dozen people to the right of Joffrey's.

Unfortunately we aren't told where Lady Olenna is seated.

Joffrey comes over to where Tyrion is seated and dumps the wedding chalice full of wine (which at that point is red) on Tyrion's head. Obviously it would have been pointless for the poison to have been in the chalice at that point.

At this point Margaery appears at Joffrey's side and apparently Olenna hobbles over on her cane into that same general area at that time as well.

Before they can talk Joffrey back to his seat he wants more wine, and Tyrion gets a flagon from a serving girl and fills the chalice 3/4s of the way full. Joffrey takes a good sized hit on that but we aren't told the color of the wine at that point. Then he puts the chalice down on the table near Tyrion's seat.

At that point Tywin calls him to cut the "pie" full of live doves. He does so and then dances with Margaery. By that time, if the wine Tyrion poured from the flagon had been poisoned, he should have already been dead.

About this time a serving man puts some (cooked) pigeon pie in front of Tyrion, with some lemon cream topping.

Could the poison have been in the pie? That would mean either that it was actually intended for Tyrion or that someone magically knew that Tyrion wouldn't want it and that Joffrey would come grab some of it.

(I don't know if that business about it being bad luck not to eat the pigeon pie was something Joffrey just made up with which to harrass Tyrion, or if someone else supplied the idea, perhaps as a way to harrass Tyrion, a la Littlefinger talking Joffrey into the jousting dwarves.)

So Joffrey dances and Tyrion is served pie, and then Joffrey comes back to bully Tyrion some more, making him hand him the chalice and drinking a big swallow, at which time we learn that the wine is purple. Was it purple right out of the flagon, or did it get that way subsequently?

It's at that point that Joffrey eats some of Tyrion's pie and drinks some more of the wine and then chokes and dies.

So if the poison was in the chalice, who slipped it in there between the first and second times that Tyrion handed it to Joffery, and did so undetected while the chalice was sitting right there in front of Tyrion? And how could they know that Joffrey wouldn't leave the dance floor, sit back down in his seat, and make Tyrion waddle over to him carrying the chalice (instead of him going to Tyrion's seat), and share the wine with Margaery?

(and why was Cersei so instantly sure it was poison, and not choking on pie?)

*(since King Robert got disemboweled by the boar, and would surely have lain in state at least as long as Tywin, but nobody made a big stink about him making a big stink, or visibly rotting away, I'd say there's a good chance something was going on with Tywin other than the crossbow bolt to the bowels)

[John Suburbs]

All very good questions, and ones that supporters of the obvious (the poisoned wine/chalice theory) will run circles around, all the while claiming that alternate explanations lack "textual evidence."

But the timelines between the two poisonings are clear: Cressen drinks a mouthful of wine poisoned with a "flake" of crystal and dies within seconds. Joffrey takes a long drink of supposedly poisoned wine, then hears a statement from margy about Lord Buckler's toast, then heads over to Tyrion's seat and grabs a handful of pie, all with no apparent affect from the poison. Then he jams the pie in his mouth and it is then and only then that we see the first sign that anything is wrong.

So to me, the obvious conclusion is that the poison was in the pie, not the wine, and that can only lead us to the further conclusion that Tyrion was the target at the PW, not Joffrey. They question is, why?

If you look at if from the perspectives to the two main plotters, LF and LO, we can puzzle it out. For LF's part, Tyrion is the former HotK and is now MoC, so he is on the verge of unravelling all the shenanigans that LF has been playing with the crown's money all these years, and most likely the fact that perhaps half of the 6 million dragons that the crown owes is sitting in LF's account at the IB. Plus, he needs a diversion to get Sansa out of KL without any little birds seeing.

For LO, things are a bit more complicated. Once the RW takes place and Bran and Rickon are reported dead, along with Arya missing and presumed dead, Sansa is now the last surviving child of Ned Stark, so her son will become heir to Winterfell. With Tyrion now as Sansa's legal husband, that heir would be a Lannister and would place the entire north -- all its men, gold, ore, timber, lumber and seaports on both costs -- under the control of Tywin Lannsiter. Add the Crownlands, the Riverlands and the Neck through the Frey alliance, and Tywin will control more than half the kingdom. And this is man who makes no bones of invading rival's lands and burning them to the ground and who's seat is due north of Highgarden. So for a player like Lady O, the threat from Tywin Lannister to all of House Tyrell is a much more clear and present danger than the threat that Joffrey poses to Margy, if any.

And the thing about the pie that a lot of readers don't seem to understand is that it is not simply another course in the meal, it is the Wedding Pie similar to our Wedding Cake. They make a big show of it being wheeled in and sliced, and all guests are expected to eat at least one bite, not only as a courtesy but because, in the case of a royal wedding, notice will be taken of those who do not eat and the "ill luck" will like arrive as some form of retribution from the crown. But either way, the poison in the pie all but assures the plotters that Tyrion and only Tyrion would eat it, except for the fact that Joffrey is such a bonehead and would commit such an unpredictable act as eating someone else's pie.

The only other odd piece of evidence in support of the win theory is the purple wine running down Joffrey's throat as he takes that long drink. Easily explained as the effect of a thin film of red wine against Joffrey's pale white skin. The deep purple wine in the chalice at the end of the chapter is the result of poisoned pie being coughed into the chalice as Joffrey tries to take his final drink.

The vast majority of readers on these boards insist, however, that GRRM would never deceive us like this and that things are exactly as they appear. You'll be hearing from them soon.

[Chebyshov]

It was Garlan Tyrell in the Throne Room with the The Strangler

ETA: as to the question of when, Garlan walks over to Tyrion with the chalice to help him up, after we see Joff drinking and he's fine, but before they cut the pie. I see this as the most logical window.

As to poison in the pie vs. the wine, this has been discussed at length in another thread. I'd prefer not to jump back into that.

[RedShirt47]

We don't know the concentration of poison in the two doses of poison. Joffrey's could have been slightly milder.

Cressen was about 80 and frail. Joffrey was young and healthy.

Joffrey had just eaten a feast which could slow down poison.

There are reasons why Joffrey could have lasted a few minutes longer than Cressen.

[Mithras]

There is also another theory that it was Cersei who tried to kill Tyrion with the poisoned pie because she beleives that Tyrion is the valonqar.

[unitron]

It was Garlan Tyrell in the Throne Room with the The Strangler

Garlan, who actually had nice things to say about Tyrion's abilities? That Garlan?

The logistics of him poisoning that particular serving of the pie are as difficult to overcome as dropping poison in the chalice right in front of Tyrion's face, but otherwise it's deliciously devious.

Actually, with all the fuss about lemon cakes in the first book I was immediately curious about that lemon cream on top of the pie, but I've never had pigeon and don't know if lemon goes well with it or not.

[John Suburbs]

It was Garlan Tyrell in the Throne Room with the The Strangler

ETA: as to the question of when, Garlan walks over to Tyrion with the chalice to help him up, after we see Joff drinking and he's fine, but before they cut the pie. I see this as the most logical window.

As to poison in the pie vs. the wine, this has been discussed at length in another thread. I'd prefer not to jump back into that.

To pin it on Garlen would suggest that he is not the noble night that he appears to be and would stoop to using a craven's weapon like poison. I don't see anything in the text to support this: not his conduct during the Blackwater, his private conversations with Sansa about Tyrion's merits... And if the plot hinged on creating the scene between Joffrey and Tyrion at the wedding, why would Garlen warn Tyrion that the wine was about to get dumped on his head? And then tell the king, no less, that it was "ill done"?

We don't know the concentration of poison in the two doses of poison. Joffrey's could have been slightly milder.

Cressen was about 80 and frail. Joffrey was young and healthy.

Joffrey had just eaten a feast which could slow down poison.

There are reasons why Joffrey could have lasted a few minutes longer than Cressen.

Of course, there are all kinds of ways we could speculate as to how the poison works and what concentrations were involved. But it acted so fast on Cressen that it appears to be a topical poison -- that is, it hits the muscles of the throat and goes right to work, rather than being absorbed into the blood, circulated throughout the body and then attacking the throat. So age, size, health, etc. should not matter.

[unitron]

There is also another theory that it was Cersei who tried to kill Tyrion with the poisoned pie because she beleives that Tyrion is the valonqar.

That would help explain why she immediately jumped past "choking on the pie" to accusing Tyrion of poisoning Joffrey, and she may well have pushed him to go chastise his uncle for not eating the pie, never dreaming that he would start bogarting it himself.

And by the end of the evening she could have actually convinced herself that Tyrion did poison the wine.

[John Suburbs]

But Cersei could get rid of Tyrion in all sorts of ways rather than ruining this lavish affair that she spent so much time and effort on. And unless she's had a complete mental disconnect (not impossible, I admit), the truth of the matter would have shown up in one of her PoVs.

[Chebyshov]

Keep in mind, the Tyrells wanted this to look like an accident. They didn't anticipate Cersei's crazy paranoia in relation to Tyrion. LF was the one who suggested the dwarves, so that Tyrion would look more guilty (he was angered). This way, he figured the murder could be pinned on Tyrion, freeing up Sansa and her maidenhead for another alliance (yes, she's implicated as well, but he knew he was spiriting her away from the city, and proving her guilt would be difficult, especially without the hairnet).

The Tyrells wanted a fail-safe in case people didn't buy the "choking" thing, so that's why the hairnet carried the poison. Sansa was their back-up fall person (which yes, is deliciously devious; Dontos wasn't kidding when he said they're "Lannisters with flowers"), but LF manipulated the situation to implicate Tyrion. Anyway, this is all just my opinion, obviously, but I think those Tyrells are more thorny than we give them credit for.

[Poppa Chase]

That would help explain why she immediately jumped past "choking on the pie" to accusing Tyrion of poisoning Joffrey, and she may well have pushed him to go chastise his uncle for not eating the pie, never dreaming that he would start bogarting it himself.

And by the end of the evening she could have actually convinced herself that Tyrion did poison the wine.

Wouldn't put it past Cersei to believe her own lie.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Garlan, who actually had nice things to say about Tyrion's abilities? That Garlan?

The very same. Pinning the murder on Tyrion wasn't Plan A, if it was a part of any plan at all. It was supposed to look like an unfortunate accident, it did look like an accident, only one of the directives in Cersei's firmware ("Hate Tyrion") led to revealing a murder. Only in the show the poisoning is instantly obvious.

The logistics of him poisoning that particular serving of the pie are as difficult to overcome as dropping poison in the chalice right in front of Tyrion's face, but otherwise it's deliciously devious.

Nah. Everybody's standing, so a big guy like Garlan can drop a tiny poisonous crystal into Joff's bigass cup quite inconspicuously. Everybody, including Tyrion, is looking at the royal couple, nobody pays any attention to the chalice. Easy peasy.

[unitron]

Thanks for the link--I didn't want to get anything else done today anyway. :)

In the book they don't mention Garlan having to walk anywhere to help Tyrion up (they sit right next to each other), and neither he nor Tyrion have the chalice because Joffrey has just set it down on the table.

And if I type chalice one more time I'm liable to start channeling Danny Kaye. :wacko:

[fuem]

It was the queen with the guards left and right.

[unitron]

The very same. Pinning the murder on Tyrion wasn't Plan A, if it was a part of any plan at all. It was supposed to look like an unfortunate accident, it did look like an accident, only one of the directives in Cersei's firmware ("Hate Tyrion") led to revealing a murder. Only in the show the poisoning is instantly obvious.

Nah. Everybody's standing, so a big guy like Garlan can drop a tiny poisonous crystal into Joff's bigass cup quite inconspicuously. Everybody, including Tyrion, is looking at the royal couple, nobody pays any attention to the chalice. Easy peasy.

Perhaps in the TV show, but the book, at least to me, seems to have them seated (Garlan and Tyrion and respective spouses) after Joffrey drinks the first bit of what Tyrion poured from the flagon up until he starts choking after drinking the second bit.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Perhaps in the TV show, but the book, at least to me, seems to have them seated (Garlan and Tyrion and respective spouses) after Joffrey drinks the first bit of what Tyrion poured from the flagon up until he starts choking after drinking the second bit.

“Your Grace.” Lord Tywin’s voice was impeccably correct. “They are bringing in the pie. Your sword is needed.”

“The pie?” Joffrey took his queen by the hand. “Come, my lady, it’s the pie.”

The guests stood, shouting and applauding and smashing their wine cups together as the great pie made its slow way down the length of the hall, wheeled along by a half-dozen beaming cooks. Two yards across it was, crusty and golden brown, and they could hear squeaks and thumpings coming from inside it.

[Elessar]

OP, Oberyn Martell's mother is long dead, she had nothing to do with it. I realize you meant Olenna, but still. Fact checking and such....

Even though Littlefinger tells us it's her, I still have doubts. Sansa may have had more to do with it than just being the vehicle for the poison to get there. Isn't there a SSM somewhere that hints we've not heard all there is to hear about this yet?

[fuem]

1. Tonight during Episode 4, "Oathkeeper," it was finally revealed who's really guilty of regicide. As most viewers have already come to believe, Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey — it was a setup. The real killers were Olenna Tyrell, and Littlefinger.

   This is the show of course On ya HBO

[John Suburbs]

Keep in mind, the Tyrells wanted this to look like an accident. They didn't anticipate Cersei's crazy paranoia in relation to Tyrion. LF was the one who suggested the dwarves, so that Tyrion would look more guilty (he was angered). This way, he figured the murder could be pinned on Tyrion, freeing up Sansa and her maidenhead for another alliance (yes, she's implicated as well, but he knew he was spiriting her away from the city, and proving her guilt would be difficult, especially without the hairnet).

The Tyrells wanted a fail-safe in case people didn't buy the "choking" thing, so that's why the hairnet carried the poison. Sansa was their back-up fall person (which yes, is deliciously devious; Dontos wasn't kidding when he said they're "Lannisters with flowers"), but LF manipulated the situation to implicate Tyrion. Anyway, this is all just my opinion, obviously, but I think those Tyrells are more thorny than we give them credit for.

If the Tyrell's wanted it to look like Joff choked on pie, why poison the wine? How could they possibly know that once the poison is deployed in the wine that he would be eating and drinking at the same time?

And I'm sorry, there is no way that LF, smart as he is, could have possibly engineered the convoluted series of events that led to Joffrey and only Joffrey, not Margaery, getting poisoned and then blame falling on Tyrion. That Tyrion would rise to the bait of the jousting. That the tussle with Joffrey would involve the chalice. That Tyrion would dump the wine out at the end, sparking Cersei to make the accusation. And even if this was his "plan" all along, I can't imagine Lady O going along with it considering that if even one of these things doesn't happen, all the Tyrells will be in the Red Keep surrounded by Lannister guards while LF is on his ship ready to split for Braavos. Too risky, too many unknowns for a seasoned player like Lady O.

The very same. Pinning the murder on Tyrion wasn't Plan A, if it was a part of any plan at all. It was supposed to look like an unfortunate accident, it did look like an accident, only one of the directives in Cersei's firmware ("Hate Tyrion") led to revealing a murder. Only in the show the poisoning is instantly obvious.

Nah. Everybody's standing, so a big guy like Garlan can drop a tiny poisonous crystal into Joff's bigass cup quite inconspicuously. Everybody, including Tyrion, is looking at the royal couple, nobody pays any attention to the chalice. Easy peasy.

That bigass cup is three feet tall. Take a yardstick and stand it up right on your kitchen table and then imagine how easy peasy it is to reach over the top and drop something in before a room of 200 people. If just one person sees you do it, your entire family, your entire seat, is razed to the ground a la the Reynes of Castamere. And I don't have my book with me, but I don't recall anything about the room standing while the pie is cut. So extraordinarily difficult if you are standing, outright impossible if you are sitting.

The pie, though, is only three inches tall sitting at the back of the table in Tyrion's place. As he starts to leave with Sansa, very easy for a short women like Lady O to do it. No need to involve Garlen, Margy or anyone else.

[Chebyshov]

If the Tyrell's wanted it to look like Joff choked on pie, why poison the wine? How could they possibly know that once the poison is deployed in the wine that he would be eating and drinking at the same time?

Because they timed it to be around the time of the pie cutting. It's not an unreasonable expectation that someone drinks wine with pie.

And I'm sorry, there is no way that LF, smart as he is, could have possibly engineered the convoluted series of events that led to Joffrey and only Joffrey, not Margaery, getting poisoned and then blame falling on Tyrion. That Tyrion would rise to the bait of the jousting. That the tussle with Joffrey would involve the chalice. That Tyrion would dump the wine out at the end, sparking Cersei to make the accusation. And even if this was his "plan" all along, I can't imagine Lady O going along with it considering that if even one of these things doesn't happen, all the Tyrells will be in the Red Keep surrounded by Lannister guards while LF is on his ship ready to split for Braavos. Too risky, too many unknowns for a seasoned player like Lady O.

LF knew Cersei hated Tyrion and that jousting dwarves at the wedding would piss Tyrion off. Given the Tyrells were the ones administering the poison, Marg's danger wasn't really a concern. The Tyrells didn't know about LF's desire for Tyrion to take the fall, all they knew was that Sansa would smuggle in the goods and it'd be a subtle way to off a very problematic person.

Did LF know exactly how everything would go? No. But he knew about Cersei's paranoid nature, and that he could perhaps tip the scales to point towards Tyrion's involvement.