Who poisoned Joffrey, and when and how?

[Chebyshov]

The app confirms the killer was Olenna herself, it seems

Interesting, though odd given her height. I mean she certainly was the mastermind and the poison smuggler, so I guess it's not that surprising. Though that wording could also just mean she took part in the poisoning.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Interesting, though odd given her height. I mean she certainly was the mastermind and the poison smuggler, so I guess it's not that surprising. Though that wording could also just mean she took part in the poisoning.

It would only require Joff to hold his calice once, with Olenna standing next to him or so. Or Tyrion handing the calice, and nobody looking at the actual thing (as watching Tyrion and Joffrey fight would be a lot more interestin ;) )

[Ygrain]

Gold is even heavier than bronze.

If the table is on the dais and the pie was wheeled just below the dais, then the table is only a few feet above the pie, unless you picture a 20-foot staircase down to the floor of the throne room. Still well within the field of vision for any number of guests, not to mention Tyrion and Sansa who are only a few feet from the cup.

The pie was placed after the cutting and stayed there the whole time T&S attempted to leave and Joffrey started up with Tyrion again.

And if Leonette is sitting right next to Tyrion, that just makes it easier for her to slip the poison into the pie. No matter how you look at it or who you think the poisoner is, it is much easier and far less noticeable to poison the pie than the wine.

There is no "the whole time. Tyrion gets his portion, Sansa gets hers, neither are eating. Definitely not the time to slip anything in. Then they attempt to leave (way before the usual time) and show no intention of eating the pie. Makes zero sense to poison something they are very apparently not going to eat, but since this dead strawhorse has been beaten enough, I'll leave it at that.

[kimim]

How can she do it? How can she get to him? He's in the Red Keep, surrounded by guards. She has no people near him, no way to know where he'll be or what he'll be doing at any given moment. Is she going to send a squad of soldiers in to kill him? Does she have a Faceless Man? Any plot of this magnitude would take months to prepare and she doesn't have the time. She is leaving right after the wedding and he could father a child on Sansa at any moment.

My problem with your theory is not why the Tyrells would want Tyrion dead, but why they would wait to kill him at the wedding feast. You're wrong about the Red Keep. After his marriage, Tyrion doesn't spend his time in his apartments, surrounded by guards. We don't know everything he does, but we know he visits Simon Silvertongue, welcomes Oberyn, and has a midnight assignation with Shae. You're assuming that people live in their separate keeps, coming in contact only during feasts, unaware of what anyone else is doing. This is not true.

And Tyrion is going to inform the Queen of Thorns every time he visits the local brothel? And since he has Shae, he doesn't even need a brothel.

If everything had gone according to plan, Tyrion would already be dead and Joffrey could be dealt with easily because Margy is now sharing the royal apartments and Loras will be assigned to guard him from time to time. Neither one of them would have any reason to enter Tyrion's apartments or have anything to do with him outside of formal functions.

And yes, tongues would wag for Joffrey more than Tyrion, which was why Tyrion is the safer target at the wedding. If it was meant to be an accidental poisoning (which is absurd because Sansa is suddenly gone) a poisoned pie makes more sense than poison wine because it guarantees that the victim will be eating at the time.

It's easy enough to kill anyone you want; the problem is getting away with it. It's obvious that killing the king would be more difficult than killing Tyrion, in that killing a king is magnitudes more important than killing the dwarf. Killing Joffrey would risk Margaery, Loras, and the Tyrells themselves. Cersei might be out of town, but she is more than capable of traveling back, and Tywin is not someone you fuck with. Tyrion, again, is different. If he's kidnapped in front of a tavern full of people (Catelyn) then the Lannisters act to defend their reputation. If he chokes in a tavern somewhere? No one would investigate.

Re why the Tyrells want Joffrey dead: Joffrey is (in the novels) a monster, and described as such by Sansa. Garlan sees what a cretinous brat Joffrey is when he destroys Tyrion's wedding present. The Tyrells could believe that they're doing the realm a favor by getting rid of him. They are certainly doing Margaery a favor.

Tyrells also want the queenship, and places on the council, king's guard, etc. So they kill Joffrey after the wedding, but before the marriage is consummated. The queen, being a virgin, then marries the next in line for the throne, who happens to be a nicer person than Joffrey. All is well with the world...not really, but they try.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

After careful examination of all the textual evidence, I'm ready to pass the verdict. Here it goes: this thread is going nowhere. It very quickly transformed into a reincarnation of John's previous one, and apparently ended in the same loop. Let it rest in peace.

[John Suburbs]

Not true, they were serving the pie at that point.

They were serving pie, but even an idiot like Joffery knows enough not to be stuffing your face with pie when someone is trying to toast you.

[John Suburbs]

The app confirms the killer was Olenna herself, it seems

The wiki is not cannon. What makes you say the app is?

[John Suburbs]

There is no "the whole time. Tyrion gets his portion, Sansa gets hers, neither are eating. Definitely not the time to slip anything in. Then they attempt to leave (way before the usual time) and show no intention of eating the pie. Makes zero sense to poison something they are very apparently not going to eat, but since this dead strawhorse has been beaten enough, I'll leave it at that.

The poisoning could have take place just before it was placed. Or as their backs are turned as they are turning to leave. This is the Wedding Pie and would not be removed until the recipient had eaten of it or had left the event entirely. Simple courtesy.

[kimim]

The poisoning could have take place just before it was placed. Or as their backs are turned as they are turning to leave. This is the Wedding Pie and would not be removed until the recipient had eaten of it or had left the event entirely. Simple courtesy.

This topic is really like beating a dead horse.

Why would anyone intent on killing Tyrion put poison in his pie right as he's about to leave the feast with his wife?

I'm starting to think I'd do a better job of poisoning someone. Eh, whatever. We'll find out or not, depending on Martin's mood and plot.

[John Suburbs]

My problem with your theory is not why the Tyrells would want Tyrion dead, but why they would wait to kill him at the wedding feast. You're wrong about the Red Keep. After his marriage, Tyrion doesn't spend his time in his apartments, surrounded by guards. We don't know everything he does, but we know he visits Simon Silvertongue, welcomes Oberyn, and has a midnight assignation with Shae. You're assuming that people live in their separate keeps, coming in contact only during feasts, unaware of what anyone else is doing. This is not true.

He visits Simon Silvertongue on the sly with Bronn by his side until he enters the wine sink. No way for Lady O to know about that little departure.

He welcomes Oberyn with a full contingent of gold cloaks, Lannister soldiers, Bronn, Pod, numerous lords and knights. Impossible to take him there.

He meets Shae in the basement of the Red Keep where that dragon skulls are kept. No way for Lady O to know about that, and no way to reach him if she did.

Lords and ladies generally see each other only on formal occasions or in very public places like gardens and special events. If it is so easy for Lady O to kill people she doesn't like, why doesn't she just kill all the Lannisters and be done with them?

It's easy enough to kill anyone you want; the problem is getting away with it. It's obvious that killing the king would be more difficult than killing Tyrion, in that killing a king is magnitudes more important than killing the dwarf. Killing Joffrey would risk Margaery, Loras, and the Tyrells themselves. Cersei might be out of town, but she is more than capable of traveling back, and Tywin is not someone you fuck with. Tyrion, again, is different. If he's kidnapped in front of a tavern full of people (Catelyn) then the Lannisters act to defend their reputation. If he chokes in a tavern somewhere? No one would investigate.

Exactly, killing Joffrey is orders of magnitude more serious than killing Tyrion. So why would Lady O go along with a plan to off Joff when in the end that only diminishes Margy's standing at court and pushes their plan for a royal heir back at least five years? Cersei is out of town? Rosby is out of town. Sunspear is probably a week away even by the fastest boat, and an overland journey from Oldtown or Casterly Rock would take a month or more. Cersei out of KL and married to some lord effectively eliminates her as a player in Kings Landing. She has no power, no authority, commands no soldiers. She would be completely supplanted by Margy if she had become Joff's queen. And Lady O would toss all that out the window just because Joffrey, who has shown no inclination at all to hurt Margy, would suddenly strip her and flay her on the wedding night? Come on, the lady is not stupid.

Re why the Tyrells want Joffrey dead: Joffrey is (in the novels) a monster, and described as such by Sansa. Garlan sees what a cretinous brat Joffrey is when he destroys Tyrion's wedding present. The Tyrells could believe that they're doing the realm a favor by getting rid of him. They are certainly doing Margaery a favor.

Tyrells also want the queenship, and places on the council, king's guard, etc. So they kill Joffrey after the wedding, but before the marriage is consummated. The queen, being a virgin, then marries the next in line for the throne, who happens to be a nicer person than Joffrey. All is well with the world...not really, but they try.

Lady Olenna has been alive a long time and she knows what a real monster king is like. They torture and burn people in the throne room. They tie them up and slowly drop them into wildfire. They rig up contraptions so that if you try to save your burning lord father you end up killing the both of you. Compared to what she's seen, Joffrey is pathetic. He strips the sister of a traitor in the baily and has his guards beat her with the flats of their swords. That's kid stuff. Lady O herself is probably guilty of worse in her own dungeons.

He chops up a book and this gives an anointed knight like Garlen a reason to kill him? I hope I never end up having dinner at your house because I would be too nervous to even blink.

They had Margy as queen, all sewed up tight. No reason to wait for Tommen. No reason to risk something happening to him or her before she can deliver an heir. Everything was all set, wrapped up with a nice pretty bow. And as I mentioned earlier, virgin Margy is "married" to Tommen at the beginning of feast, but who has all the power? Who is sitting on the small council? Who is sending soldiers to Dragonstone instead of Oldtown? It aint Margaery.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

The wiki is not cannon. What makes you say the app is?

Because the wiki is open for edit, the app can only be edited by a select few people, who receive their information from the books, and GRRM himself ;)

[A Bastard Snow]

Why not just kill Tyrion at any time?I mean if your gonna poison Tyrion at a wedding why not at his own.

[unitron]

The app confirms the killer was Olenna herself, it seems

"The crystals are actually the crystalline form of the poison Tears of Lys, which Olenna Redwyne uses to kill Joffrey"

The Tears of Lys, a clear liquid, kill you slowly, like they did Jon Arryn, and work a lot further down than the throat.

Joffrey appears to have been killed by The Strangler, same as Cressen.

[unitron]

The jousting was one last, little dig at Tyrion before he dies. No reason to think he would up and leave the feast over that. Tyrion is not as random as Joffrey.

The hairnet was given to Sansa with the intent of creating a diversion a the wedding so she could escape. Any victim would work. Tyrion was not selected until after the RW and his marriage to Sansa because it conveniently aligned LF's goals with Lady O.

Littlefinger likes to put pieces in their places early, even if he doesn't know exactly how they are to be used, like the Kettleblacks.

I'd think the death of "whoever" would provide the diversion, while the hairnet would only be useful for framing her if she doesn't escape.

[unitron]

...

The purple wine on the chin is easily explained as the thin sheen of red wine against Joffrey's pale skin. Once Joff dropped the chalice on the dais and wine was spilling out in quantities, it was red again.

...

I was going to correct you on that but checked the book again. Good catch. I'd somehow managed not to see that in all my previous many re-readings.

What's interesting is that Joffrey drinks from the chalice for a second time

(first time was after dumping the previous Dornish Red on Tyrion's head and after Tyrion refills the chalice from the flagon of who knows what kind of wine, but we aren't given a clue as to the color of the flagon wine at that time)

and the wine runs purple down his chin and throat, before he touches Tyrion's pigeon pie. Then when he starts coughing he takes a third drink from the chalice, color still unspecified, coughes again, harder, tries to drink some more but coughs up the previous swallow (and one assumes some landed back in the chalice), but color still not specified, then drops chalice and the wine that spills out is red.

But then when Tyrion picks up the chalice he sees half an inch of deep purple wine still in it. Then he pours that out on the floor.

I've never actually poured red wine into a container made of actual gold, so I don't know how the gold would affect the apparent color of the wine and we're talking reflected light and not mixed pigments so my first guess could easily be wrong.

It still seems a little counter-intuitive that color televisions mix red, green, and blue light and get white light out of it.

Just to be nitpicky...

How do you know what the servants were doing? There is no mention of them other than a servant dropped a spoonful of cream on Tyrion's pie.

....it's actually mentioned that that servant first placed the slice of pie in front of Tyrion (presumably on the table and not in mid-air) and then spooned the lemon cream onto it.

I don't know for certain that the slice of pie is triangular (like from a round pie) and not rectangular, like from a big baking pan. Joffrey, instead of picking it up and biting off the pointy end, just shoves his fingers into it to scoop some up.

Did I ever mention what a classy guy Joffrey is, and how renowned the kingdom over for his impeccable table manners? : - )

[Colonel Green]

He visits Simon Silvertongue on the sly with Bronn by his side until he enters the wine sink. No way for Lady O to know about that little departure.

Unless she has, you know, spies and such. Tyrion is not inaccessible, if you wanted to kill him and had resources, as the Tyrells do.

Lady Olenna has been alive a long time and she knows what a real monster king is like. They torture and burn people in the throne room. They tie them up and slowly drop them into wildfire. They rig up contraptions so that if you try to save your burning lord father you end up killing the both of you. Compared to what she's seen, Joffrey is pathetic. He strips the sister of a traitor in the baily and has his guards beat her with the flats of their swords. That's kid stuff.

And Joffrey is, in fact, a kid. At Joffrey's age, Aerys II was charming and generous. Nothing about his behaviour says he's going to get better with age.

[John Suburbs]

Why not just kill Tyrion at any time?I mean if your gonna poison Tyrion at a wedding why not at his own.

Tyrion's wedding was a rushed affair. Sansa didn't even know about it until that very morning. Littlefinger has all the pieces in place for the royal wedding and they need Tyrion's death as a diversion to cover Sansa's escape.

[John Suburbs]

I was going to correct you on that but checked the book again. Good catch. I'd somehow managed not to see that in all my previous many re-readings.

What's interesting is that Joffrey drinks from the chalice for a second time

(first time was after dumping the previous Dornish Red on Tyrion's head and after Tyrion refills the chalice from the flagon of who knows what kind of wine, but we aren't given a clue as to the color of the flagon wine at that time)

and the wine runs purple down his chin and throat, before he touches Tyrion's pigeon pie. Then when he starts coughing he takes a third drink from the chalice, color still unspecified, coughes again, harder, tries to drink some more but coughs up the previous swallow (and one assumes some landed back in the chalice), but color still not specified, then drops chalice and the wine that spills out is red.

But then when Tyrion picks up the chalice he sees half an inch of deep purple wine still in it. Then he pours that out on the floor.

I've never actually poured red wine into a container made of actual gold, so I don't know how the gold would affect the apparent color of the wine and we're talking reflected light and not mixed pigments so my first guess could easily be wrong.

It still seems a little counter-intuitive that color televisions mix red, green, and blue light and get white light out of it.

Just to be nitpicky...

....it's actually mentioned that that servant first placed the slice of pie in front of Tyrion (presumably on the table and not in mid-air) and then spooned the lemon cream onto it.

I don't know for certain that the slice of pie is triangular (like from a round pie) and not rectangular, like from a big baking pan. Joffrey, instead of picking it up and biting off the pointy end, just shoves his fingers into it to scoop some up.

Did I ever mention what a classy guy Joffrey is, and how renowned the kingdom over for his impeccable table manners? : - )

My sequence of events goes like this: Joffrey drinks the unpoisoned wine right after the pie-cutting. It runs purple down his throat because of the thin layer of wine and his pale skin. Then he eats the pie and start coughing slightly. He takes another mouthful of wine which mixes with the crystal in his mouth and he starts coughing more violently. He tries to take a third drink but it all comes spewing back out of his mouth and into the chalice, which is right at his mouth because he is in the process of drinking. Then he drops the chalice on the dais and it runs red because the poison/pie has not had time to react with the wine. By the time Tyrion picks the chalice up at the end, it's been sitting there for a few minutes with poison/pie, which accounts for the deep purple color.

[A Bastard Snow]

Tyrion's wedding was a rushed affair. Sansa didn't even know about it until that very morning. Littlefinger has all the pieces in place for the royal wedding and they need Tyrion's death as a diversion to cover Sansa's escape.

Um no.LF was the one who informed that the Tyrell's planned to marry Sansa to Willas

Also LF had two goals.One to remove Tyrion from the game by framing him for murder (Thats why he hired the dwarves as a motivation for lashing out of Joff)

And secondly to take Sansa.

Why would LF go and hire penny and her brother if he was planning on killing Tyrion?It makes 0 sense.

[John Suburbs]

Unless she has, you know, spies and such. Tyrion is not inaccessible, if you wanted to kill him and had resources, as the Tyrells do.

And Joffrey is, in fact, a kid. At Joffrey's age, Aerys II was charming and generous. Nothing about his behaviour says he's going to get better with age.

She may have her spies, but not in Tyrion's household. Those are all Cersei's. Tyrion is not inaccessible, but killing him and killing him with clean hands are two very different things. Plots of this kind take weeks or months to advance and she doesn't have the time. She's leaving the capital right after the wedding and Tyrion could father the next heir to Winterfell at any moment.

There is also nothing about Joffrey's behavior to suggest he is going to whisk margy into the marriage chamber that very night and then rape and kill her. If Joffrey becomes abusive at some future point, there are plenty of opportunities to do it once Margy is living in the castle and Loras is pulling regular guard duty over the royal couple. By then, she will have provided the Tyrell heir to the IT, her status at court is assured, the Tyrell connection to the IT is firm and she will rule as Queen Regent until her eldest son comes of age.