Danaerys/Cersei parallels

[Le Cygne]

I was looking for the quote, found this from a signing (paraphrase):

Cersei and Daenerys are intended as parallel characters --each exploring a different approach to how a woman would rule in a male dominated, medieval-inspired fantasy world.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C92/P60

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I was looking for the quote, found this from a signing (paraphrase):

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C92/P60

Cersei and Daenerys are intended as parallel characters --each exploring a different approach to how a woman would rule in a male dominated, medieval-inspired fantasy world.

keyword = different

[larastone]

I was looking for the quote, found this from a signing (paraphrase):

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Category/C92/P60

The main difference between cersei and dany's methods in ruling is that cersei believes she needs to ally herself with the patriarchy to rule. AFFC imo is essentially "cersei tries to be a dude and fails at it"

While dany on the other hand fights against the patriarchy. And embraces being a woman.

[SeanF]

The main difference between cersei and dany's methods in ruling is that cersei believes she needs to ally herself with the patriarchy to rule. AFFC imo is essentially "cersei tries to be a dude and fails at it"

While dany on the other hand fights against the patriarchy. And embraces being a woman.

Dany stands outside the system.

WRT to the position of women, I'd say she embraces the Dothraki attitude to an extent. She objected to the gang-rape of women at MMD's village, but accepted that the Dothraki could take the conquered women as wives. She thinks her brother carried off Lyana at sword-point, but thinks this was really romantic, and half wishes Daario would do the same with her.

[OldGimletEye]

I'm a little bit of an amateur hobbyist in history, and my own personal conclusion about the great leaders that I've studied throughout history is that the one thing they all seem to have in common is that they are not afraid to act. Average, competent leaders tend to get frozen by the complexity inherent in any dramatic change. Great leaders visualize the future, act to bring it about, and then see their way through the complexities by strength of will. That's what I think Daenerys is in the process of doing; she just hasn't gotten to the end stage yet.

Dany's actions in Astapor, and the subsequent conflict that followed, had little to do with some grand strategic vision. It was more like a case of mission creep. Her actions there reminds me a little of what my staff platoon commander often used to say, which was "Good initiative, poor judgement lieutenant."

[Hodor's Dragon]

Dany's actions in Astapor, and the subsequent conflict that followed, had little to do with some grand strategic vision. It was more like a case of mission creep. Her actions there reminds a little of what my staff platoon commander often used to say, which was "Good initiative, poor judgement lieutenant."

I don't agree with criticizing her on that ground. Although she never announced it, she did have a grand strategic vision, to free the slaves in Slaver's Bay. That's shown by her next action after taking Astapor. At Astapor she got the Unsullied and presumably riches sufficient to buy a few ships. She could've been straight to Westeros from there, but instead she dragged thousands of mouths to feed to Yunkai for the direct purpose of freeing more slaves. I see no reason to do that other than to follow the strategic vision.

I don't think you can even call it mission creep. The ultimate mission never varied from the start and still has never varied.

Her tactical vision may have been wanting, as she didn't foresee what was about to go down. I certainly wouldn't have any qualm at criticizing her for being unprepared for the problems she ran into.

As to judgment, I think that goes back to the question of whether it was a good idea for her to kick the whole campaign off at Astapor. As I indicated earlier in the thread, I think that question is largely already talked out and those of us who disagree aren't going to come to agreement, so I'm not terribly interested in discussing it. I tend to think we can just go ahead and leave that undiscussed and agree to disagree on whether Astapor constituted good judgment.

[OldGimletEye]

I don't agree with criticizing her on that ground. Although she never announced it, she did have a grand strategic vision, to free the slaves in Slaver's Bay. That's shown by her next action after taking Astapor. At Astapor she got the Unsullied and presumably riches sufficient to buy a few ships. She could've been straight to Westeros from there, but instead she dragged thousands of mouths to feed to Yunkai for the direct purpose of freeing more slaves. I see no reason to do that other than to follow the strategic vision.

Uh no. I am pretty sure this not how it happened. She pretty much thought she could get her troops, free Astapor, and then leave SB. It was only as she moved her army northward (to get them out of SB) that all these other things happened. And with 10,000 men, you would need more than a "few ships". She never started the conflict with any sort of vision at all.

[kimim]

Good analysis! Don't forget that both Cersei and Dany had another child which died in the womb, though Cersei willingly aborted it and Dany lost it and was overcome with grief

Dany's abortion is no different than Cersei's, with the exception that it happens later on in her pregnancy.

Here's the conversation between Dany and MMD after Dany wakes up and finds out the baby died:

Dany: "You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse."

"No," Mirri Maz Duur said. "That was a lie you told yourself You knew the price."

Had she? Had she? If I look back I am lost.

She sacrifices her kid to get Drogo back. Unlike Cersei, who knows what she did, Dany blocks it out.

Also, neither woman has the most distant clue how to rule anything, yet both end up immensely powerful. Both create mayhem. The difference is Dany means well, Cersei doesn't. End result is the same.

EDIT: Dany's baby is born a monster and has to be killed by Jorah, so in her case, it's not an abortion, but directly a life swap.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Uh no. I am pretty sure this not how it happened. She pretty much thought she could get her troops, free Astapor, and then leave SB. It was only as she moved her army northward (to get them out of SB) that all these other things happened. And with 10,000 men, you would need more than a "few ships". She never started the conflict with any sort of vision at all.

However many ships she needed, she could simply seize the ships in port or buy them with seized wealth, which was presumably significant. She wouldn't need a huge fleet; you can fit a lot of soldiers on a ship by crowding them in next to and on top of each other with hammocks. Based on the calculations at this site, if you gave the soldiers the same amount of sleeping room that sailors in Nelson's royal Navy got, you could sleep 556 men in an 87' x 39' space, which is the size of a single berthing deck aboard the frigate Constitution, and that's only part of a single deck on a multi-deck ship. I think the Constitution would've been a pretty large ship by ASOIAF standards but not as large as the. largest ships described. 10-20 decent-sized ships should be able to handle the Unsullied. They wouldn't be luxury accommodations, but that wouldn't be expected.

Why would she be moving her army northward otherwise? She was in a port already; what was she to do, march her army to Braavos and then take ship? I don't see any reason she went to Yunkai and Meereen but to free slaves. That's certainly what she went about the business of promptly doing on her arrival. In fact, she promptly told the Yunkish to free their slaves within three days or else she would attack.

[OldGimletEye]

However many ships she needed, there was surely sufficient wealth in Astapor for her to obtain them.

How do you know this? And how do you know Astapor had the type of naval craft she would need? And if such naval craft were available, why didn't she obtain them? They would have been fairly useful whether she decided to stay or leave SB.

She wouldn't need a large number of ships; you can fit a lot of soldiers on a ship by crowding them in next to and on top of each other with hammocks. Based on the calculations at this site, if you gave the soldiers the same amount of sleeping room that sailors in Nelson's royal Navy got, you could sleep 556 men in an 87' x 39' space, which is the size of a single berthing deck aboard the frigate Constitution, and that's only part of a single deck on a multi-deck ship.

How many men could each ship hold based on medieval era naval technology, not the late 18th century? 100, 200, 300? What are your estimates for food and water and the storage needed to carry them?

Why would she be moving her army northward otherwise? She was in a port already; what was she to do, march her army to Braavos and then take ship? I don't see any reason she went to Yunkai and Meereen but to free slaves. That's certainly what she went about the business of promptly doing on her arrival.

I don't know, ask Dany. The reason she took Mereen, initially was because she needed supplies. Re-read that chapter again. There was no intention to stay there. Her decision to stay in Mereen was only after she conquered it.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, she makes mistakes, like everybody else in the series, but unlike Cersei who screws up things that start out in fine shape, Dany is constantly confronted with insoluble problems, particularly the Harpy problem. I just don't see the stupidity in her responses to it. If you think she has been stupid, what would have been smart? The only answers I can recollect being proposed are (1) leave, or (2) have a big slaver-massacre party. I'm not crazy about either of those answers, and I find it quite easy to reject the proposition that either of those answers is a correct answer that is sure to bring about a successful result. Is there another answer? One we can look at and say "yes, that's it, how could she have been so stupid as not to see that?"

The devil is in the details. Pretty much every single decision, ruling or judgement she ever made in Meereen was completely and quite obviously a disaster from the start and basically the worst she could have done.

Politics 101, Dany does the opposite and she doesn't even try to learn.

However many ships she needed, she could simply seize the ships in port or buy them with seized wealth, which was presumably significant. She wouldn't need a huge fleet; you can fit a lot of soldiers on a ship by crowding them in next to and on top of each other with hammocks. Based on the calculations at this site, if you gave the soldiers the same amount of sleeping room that sailors in Nelson's royal Navy got, you could sleep 556 men in an 87' x 39' space, which is the size of a single berthing deck aboard the frigate Constitution, and that's only part of a single deck on a multi-deck ship. I think the Constitution would've been a pretty large ship by ASOIAF standards but not as large as the. largest ships described. 10-20 decent-sized ships should be able to handle the Unsullied. They wouldn't be luxury accommodations, but that wouldn't be expected.

From the 17th century onwards, a lot of circumstances in naval transportation changed. You could as well ask why she didn't transport the Unsullied by train.

Furthermore, for longer transports you'll need way more space. And lastly, you still need a crew.

[Le Cygne]

keyword = different

Definitely. Very different...

[Hodor's Dragon]

How do you know this? And how do you know Astapor had the type of naval craft she would need? And if such naval craft were available, why didn't she obtain them? They would have been fairly useful whether she decided to stay or leave SB.

Those are good questions, and I certainly don't know the answer. But we do know that Astapor was a port that did a thriving slave trade business. And we know that Daenerys arrived on a ship. Surely there were at least a few ships there, and it's not explained why she didn't seize them.

How many men could each ship hold based on medieval era naval technology, not the late 18th century? 100, 200, 300? What are your estimates for food and water and the storage needed to carry them?

Hammocks are not a matter of technology, just a matter of ship size, and the cogs, carracks and dromonds described as merchant ships were presumably comparable to real cogs, carracks and dromonds, i.e., fairly large. And surely they'd need food and water, but that stuff was stored in barrels and you could carry quite a bit. I don't really have any basis for doing the math, but I wouldn't be surprised if a voyage to somewhere like Tyrosh or Pentos required a stop along the way for re-provisioning. But the longest portion of the voyage would be through coastal waters where re-provisioning would be more often available than not; only the dash across the Narrow Sea would be in deep ocean.

-> snip <-

Bottom line is:

(1) We don't have any direct statement of why Daenerys went to Yunkai from Astapor;

(2) We do know what she did when she got there; and

(3) Those acts, i.e., the liberation of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen in direct sequence, followed by the decision to stay around and resolve the aftermath of conquest, certainly suggest, to me at least, a single coherent plan to liberate the slaves of Slaver's Bay. Put it this way: if she did have a single coherent plan to liberate the slaves of Slaver's Bay, she would probably have done exactly what she actually did do.

[Hodor's Dragon]

The devil is in the details. Pretty much every single decision, ruling or judgement she ever made in Meereen was completely and quite obviously a disaster from the start and basically the worst she could have done.

Completely vague. If you want to end your sentence with hyper-hypo-hyperbole, you're going to need to at least mention a fact or something. So tell me: once you conquered Meereen, what would you have done? Warning: unless your plan is a lot more brilliant than I expect it will be, I'm going to blow it out of the water. I feel pretty good about my prospects, because as I've been saying, there was no easy solution.

Politics 101, Dany does the opposite and she doesn't even try to learn. See above, except this time even your vagueness is obvious BS. Dany is constantly going back over what she's done and questioning whether it could be done better. Questioning all her own decisions one of the hallmarks of her personality. You have read these books, right?

From the 17th century onwards, a lot of circumstances in naval transportation changed. Such as . . . You could as well ask why she didn't transport the Unsullied by train. Wait, let me guess, that's your counter-plan. Furthermore, for longer transports you'll need way more space. That wasn't really the practice in history. Just bring the men out daily in small groups to walk a couple of circuits of the deck, get them their food and water, have them clean out their waste, and most of them will survive, which is all you could ask for when transporting troops in those days. And lastly, you still need a crew. Ships tend to come with crews.

Splendidly vague post!

[oopeed]

If you are looking for similarities, both know shit about ruling. Both refuse to acknowledge that. And both have a volatile and (self-)destructive temper.

Yup. Although Dany seems to be regretful of some of her choices and she did came to power from pretty much nothing after a life of being a beggar noblewoman. She also do care that the smallfolk has a decent life although she's kinda dumb in the actual ruling part, Cersei on the other side only cares about Cersei.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Splendidly vague post!

Oh, you want more details?

Some examples of Dany's political failures:

• The only constant in Dany's sentences is "fuck the Meereneese over". Happened to the young guy seeking justice for his family, the old guy wanting money from his ex-slaves and more, until the Meereneese learned that the only way they could ever get justice was to get rid of Cersei. Solution: Be predictable and constant in your sentences. People can adapt to new rules. But not if you change them all the time to fuck them over.

Taking hostages and blurting out that you won't harm them. Solution: Don't. One or the other, but don't.

Being insulted because the Yunkai wanted hostages instead of relying on her word - after she has broken literally every treaty she ever made. Solution: Grow a second braincell, the current one is busy swooning over Daario.

As to naval transport, narrow quarters bread disease. Advances in hygiene and medicine improve that. Food and water spoils fast, after mere days with the given technology. Columbus barely made it across the Atlantic for that reason, but the need for improvements bred them. Long travels cause scurvy and other diseases based on shitty rations, something solved by Cook centuries later.

And a crew needs sleeping quarters, not only the transported "livestock".

[OldGimletEye]

Bottom line is:

(1) We don't have any direct statement of why Daenerys went to Yunkai from Astapor;

(2) We do know what she did when she got there; and

(3) Those acts, i.e., the liberation of Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen in direct sequence, followed by the decision to stay around and resolve the aftermath of conquest, certainly suggest, to me at least, a single coherent plan to liberate the slaves of Slaver's Bay. Put it this way: if she did have a single coherent plan to liberate the slaves of Slaver's Bay, she would probably have done exactly what she actually did do.

At best, Dany's "strategy", to the extent there was one, was to free some slave's from SB and to take them with her. That plan of course was pretty silly, when you look at the distances involved. It looks to be about 1,000 miles from Mereen to Volantis along the Demon Road. While that would be a tough march for young and disciplined soldiers, it would be nearly impossible for many of the freedman, some of whom would likely be old, sick, and very young. Plus you'd have the problem of feeding all those mouths, which would be a nearly impossible task.

At no time, before Dany declared that she intended to stay and rule in Mereen, was it indicated that Dany meant to stay in SB. She left Astapor with all her forces. Then she bypassed Yunkai. Initially, Dany's reasons for taking Mereen were to gain supplies and because she was mad about the crucified children. In fact, it seems that Dany hadn't even thought about taking Mereen until her army was in its vicinity. Otherwise, it's hard to explain why Dany decided to bring up the subject of seige equipment only when her army was encamped outside Mereen.

In fact, here is what Dany says to about the subject of siege craft to Jorah and Jorah's reply:

"What if we were to build siege towers? My brother Viserys told tales of such, I know they can be made."

"From wood, Your Grace," Ser Jorah said. "The slavers have burnt every tree within twenty leagues of here. Without wood, we have no trebuchets to smash the walls, no ladders to go over them, no siege towers, no turtles, and no rams. We can storm the gates with axes, to be sure, but . . . "

This passage strongly suggest that Dany hadn't planned on taking Mereen, until the last moment. If she had, it would seem that she would or should have brought up the subject to Jorah well before her army reached Mereen.

The upshot of all this is that it is fairly clear that Dany had no intention of initially of staying in SB and ending slavery there permanently. Her mission changed when she took Mereen. And that is called mission creep.

Part of your argument is that Dany could have gotten ships and sailed to Westeros. But, I have to ask, if there were so many ships available, then why didn't she procure them, no matter what her intended plans were? I know some people think that naval forces aren't particularly useful. But, the reality based community knows that they are quite useful in littoral areas for several reasons. Even Dany realizes later that they are when she gets mad at Groleo because he can't crap out armada's on her command.

In short, I really doubt that Dany sat at her desk, pushing pins into a map, and then said to Jorah "On the plains of the Scrivia I'll shall beat them there".

[OldGimletEye]

The other night, I was re-reading the chapter where Tyrion announces to Cersei that he is going to be the King's Hand. Cersei of course is pretty pissed about it. She complains that that Tywin should have consulted her first. But, Tywin has money and an army under his direct control and Cersei apparently doesn't. Accordingly, Cersei is not able to do anything about it.

Dany on the other hand does have an army under direct control, plus Dragons. So, I guess that is one difference between them.

But, they both kind of suck at politics.

[larastone]

The other night, I was re-reading the chapter where Tyrion announces to Cersei that he is going to be the King's Hand. Cersei of course is pretty pissed about it. She complains that that Tywin should have consulted her first. But, Tywin has money and an army under his direct control and Cersei apparently doesn't. Accordingly, Cersei is not able to do anything about it.

Dany on the other hand does have an army under direct control, plus Dragons. So, I guess that is one difference between them.

But, they both kind of suck at politics.

yep thats where the tragedy comes from. both dany and cersei suffered through some extremely abusive marriage. but dany has the agency to get her own army and she has dragons which definitely help her rise above, and therefore help her be a more positive person.

on the other hand, cersei is just stuck in the cesspit thats KL and has been denied a sword since she was a kid just because she was a girl, and having jaime HER TWIN be able to fight with swords has made it sting all the more and made her increasingly bitter.

basically their situations definitely shape who they are imo. dany's situation helps her be a survivor, while cersei is a tragedy (although she has endured far longer than i would have, frankly i think i may have even killed myself if i was raped repeatedly for 17 years)

[Le Cygne]

But, they both kind of suck at politics.

That's not Dany's strength. She's not a silk queen. Fire and Blood!