Catelyn Stark AKA The Detriment

[bran_the_unbroken]

Looking back, I can't believe how wrong Cat was about just about everything. I'm not saying all of these are her fault, some are very understandable and she just trusted the wrong people, but there is a pattern

1) She was tricked into thinking Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters by her sister

2) She knew that Ned was unlikely to return to King's Landing (Symbolism of direwolf killed by stag at very beginning) but urged him to go anyway

3) She told Ned to trust sweet little Petyr Baelish, and didn't that turn out rosy

4) She kidnapped Tyrion even though he had nothing to do with Bran's fall, accelerating the start of the Wo5K

5) She let Lysa take Tyrion from her to be executed or released following the trial by combat

6) She was the one who forged the Frey alliance with her terrible negotiating skills (two trueborn marriages for the support of her own bannermen)

7) She persuaded Robb to give command of half of his army to Roose Bolton instead of the Greatjon, who then intentionally killed most of it

8) She released Jaime, Robb's most valuable hostage and simultaneously lost the Karstarks and three more hostages. This was in exchange for Arya and Sansa who the Lannisters no longer even had by the time Jaime got back

[Robb_Warged]

She got my boy Robb killed :box:

[Archmaester Drew]

I concur! Catelyn drives me nuts; every chapter of her's is painful to read! :read: :bang:

[ellstaysia]

catelyn is one of my favourite characters but I don't think she was to last long in the world of ASOIAF. part of me wishes she stayed dead actually.

[Winter's Knight]

Goddamnit, if you'd included "Was cruel to Jon", I'd have gotten a bingo.

[StarkSlayer LannisterLover]

Yeah but a lot of the things she did and said was right. For example telling Bran not to climb, and Robb not to marry Jeyne. She also told Robb not to send Theon to the iron isles. Plus by freeing Jaime, the siege of Riverrun had no casualties and the whole jaime trade with sansa would've worked if he had been quicker to reach KL. On top of that she went to the Vale so she couldn't be tracked and she had to give Lysa her prisoner for hospitality.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Cat was the only person in a room full of north lords who understood that fighting a war just as winter is coming is a dumb idea.

Give a woman some credit.

[RainGhost]

You're right but you could pretty much say the same of most characters. Almost every point you made is only obvious in hindsight.

1. Why wouldn't she trust her sister?

2. Catelyn misinterpreted the direwolf sign. She thought Robert might see Ned as an enemy if he refused his offer.

3. Littlefinger was like a brother to Cat and said he loved her. And everybody trusts Littlefinger when they shouldn't.

4. Catelyn believed Tyrion sent the man with the dagger after Bran. Admittedly though, this is her most stupid move. Tywin Lannister was never going to take this lying down.

5. Cat was not to know that Lysa had gone mad but she should still have taken him to Winterfell.

6. Blame this on Walder Frey. Without the marriage alliance they weren't crossing that bridge.

7. Cat was right - the Greatjon would probably have lost the entire army. She didn't have to persuade Robb - as soon as she suggests it, Robb sees that she's right, which to me shows that Bolton was the best man for the job. It was only supposed to be a short war remember.

8. Releasing Jaime was not wise but she couldn't have known that Sansa and Arya wouldn't be in KL by the time Jaime got back. If it had worked, she would have saved her daughters (if Arya was really there).

[mormont]

[mod] Seriously, people. If you have nothing to offer but 'lmao' or the most tired of all stupid comments, the 1 million and 1 variants on the 'popcorn' thing: Don't. Bother. [/mod]

[JoeyBanana]

She acted smart and put a lot of thought into her decisions all throughout the series until her death. Just like any other character she had flaws and made mistakes, but i don't see her as someone who negatively influenced or accelerated the demise of the Starks in a big way.

Had more people listened to her advice, including Robb and Renly and Stannis, things would have turned out very differently. By kidnapping Tyrion, she gave her side a major advantage, a hostage (even if it was actually an arrest, she still held him). It was Lysa who screwed that up by letting him go. If he dies, well too bad, but what really hurt Catelyn's cause was him getting away unharmed.

This is another case of hindsight clouding judgement.

[Archmaester Drew]

P.S. - Welcome to the forum! :cheers:

[Archmaester Drew]

Cat was the only person in a room full of north lords who understood that fighting a war just as winter is coming is a dumb idea.

Give a woman some credit.

Yes, she was right about that! :)

[Stark Honour]

You're right but you could pretty much say the same of most characters. Almost every point you made is only obvious in hindsight.

1. Why wouldn't she trust her sister?

2. Catelyn misinterpreted the direwolf sign. She thought Robert might see Ned as an enemy if he refused his offer.

3. Littlefinger was like a brother to Cat and said he loved her. And everybody trusts Littlefinger when they shouldn't.

4. Catelyn believed Tyrion sent the man with the dagger after Bran. Admittedly though, this is her most stupid move. Tywin Lannister was never going to take this lying down.

5. Cat was not to know that Lysa had gone mad but she should still have taken him to Winterfell.

6. Blame this on Walder Frey. Without the marriage alliance they weren't crossing that bridge.

7. Cat was right - the Greatjon would probably have lost the entire army. She didn't have to persuade Robb - as soon as she suggests it, Robb sees that she's right, which to me shows that Bolton was the best man for the job. It was only supposed to be a short war remember.

8. Releasing Jaime was not wise but she couldn't have known that Sansa and Arya wouldn't be in KL by the time Jaime got back. If it had worked, she would have saved her daughters (if Arya was really there).

This.... I agree.

The OP placing so much blame on Catelyn is just wrong. There are so many factors leading up to each eventuality she cannot be blamed. She tried her best and was betrayed. She lost ALL of her children ffs. She's one of the most tragic characters just for that reason.

[Mladen]

She got my boy Robb killed :box:

What? In what universe?

Goddamnit, if you'd included "Was cruel to Jon", I'd have gotten a bingo.

LOL...

Looking back, I can't believe how wrong Cat was about just about everything. I'm not saying all of these are her fault, some are very understandable and she just trusted the wrong people, but there is a pattern

1) She was tricked into thinking Jon Arryn was murdered by the Lannisters by her sister

2) She knew that Ned was unlikely to return to King's Landing (Symbolism of direwolf killed by stag at very beginning) but urged him to go anyway

3) She told Ned to trust sweet little Petyr Baelish, and didn't that turn out rosy

4) She kidnapped Tyrion even though he had nothing to do with Bran's fall, accelerating the start of the Wo5K

5) She let Lysa take Tyrion from her to be executed or released following the trial by combat

6) She was the one who forged the Frey alliance with her terrible negotiating skills (two trueborn marriages for the support of her own bannermen)

7) She persuaded Robb to give command of half of his army to Roose Bolton instead of the Greatjon, who then intentionally killed most of it

8) She released Jaime, Robb's most valuable hostage and simultaneously lost the Karstarks and three more hostages. This was in exchange for Arya and Sansa who the Lannisters no longer even had by the time Jaime got back

I am so sorry for doing this for the second time, but the fact is that most of this is simply not on Catelyn.

1. So, she was wrong because she got the wrong information? Putting this as her fault is completely wrong. Many people acted based on wrong information, that doesn't make them stupid, but misinformed.

2. What was the other option? The direwolf and stag episode is clearly disregarded by Ned, so he takes even bigger blame. She basically advised him based on the fact that Ned might be in danger if he refuses. And, TBH, she was right.

3. Ah, this... Ned is not a child, he knew whom he could have trusted. If Ned could have kept his mouth shut, LF would have never been able to harm him.

4. As far as I remember Tyrion did know how Bran fall. He was covering the truth.

5. Lysa was Lady of the Vale, plus Cat didn't know how seriously ill Lysa is when she decided to go to Vale.

6. And if she didn't formed that alliance, they would have all been dead.

7. Which at that moment was a clever decision as proven with Roose's eloping being captured by Tywin.

8. And CAt is dead by that time too... So, your argument is that she should have been some sort of witch who could tell the future?

I am sorry, but these are just arguments that speak not about Catelyn's lack of intelligence, but about the tragic case of misinformation and worst case scenarios happening.

[Robb_Warged]

catelyn is one of my favourite characters but I don't think she was to last long in the world of ASOIAF. part of me wishes she stayed dead actually.

She should have. If we needed a living relic of the victims or the Red Wedding it should have been Robb. Half-mad from the betrayal and violent death and the magic used to bring him back to life. A character wondering why he's alive when his poor choice caused himself, his mom, and so many of his men to be murdered

[JoeyBanana]

She should have. If we needed a living relic of the victims or the Red Wedding it should have been Robb. Half-mad from the betrayal and violent death and the magic used to bring him back to life. A character wondering why he's alive when his poor choice caused himself, his mom, and so many of his men murdered

Catelyn was a POV and at the time of her death, all of her children, her husband, and her father had died (or so she thought) in a very short period of time. Not to mention that she went mad right before she died. She was always someone who had advocated for peace instead of vengeance. It had to be Cat.

[Winter's Knight]

She should have. If we needed a living relic of the victims or the Red Wedding it should have been Robb. Half-mad from the betrayal and violent death and the magic used to bring him back to life. A character wondering why he's alive when his poor choice caused himself, his mom, and so many of his men murdered

Oh pooh. A child king who'd have lived if he'd just listened to his mother?

Cat becoming LS is delicious. As LS, she has nothing holding her back from the vengeance she clamped down on in life.

[Archmaester Drew]

4. As far as I remember Tyrion did know how Bran fall. He was covering the truth.

No, Tyrion had no idea until much later when he returned to King's Landing, and then he only suspected that Joffrey sent the cutthroat. Catelyn was way off-base on that one. :)

[Qhorin Halfhand and Yoren]

Between your OP and some of the responses you are going to get denying everything, the truth is in the middle. Not because of any fallacy but because that is how it is in this case and you do have some point with your examples. Likewise she also gets some things right, or there are excuses for the things she gets wrong or other Starks like Robb or Ned do their own very significant mistakes.

[Mladen]

No, Tyrion had no idea until much later when he returned to King's Landing, and then he only suspected that Joffrey sent the cutthroat. Catelyn was way off-base on that one. :)

Actually, he was suspecting from his very first POV chapter, when he spoke with Cersei and Jaime. He even asked Bran whether he remembers. He knew what happened to Bran. Perhaps not the whole truth and the specifics, but he knew that the twins are behind it.