Jon, dead or alive. What’s best storywise?

[Jaime's severed hand]

Jon’s arc in A Dance With Dragons ends with him being stabbed by his Night Watch companions. There has been plenty of speculation about whether he’s going to survive it or not. Well, my question is not “is Jon dead or alive?” but “what’s best for the story?”

On one hand, we have that Jon storyline has been growing for several books and he’s been shaped to be one of the heroes of the story. So it’s obvious that killing him off with (at least) a couple of books to go would be a huge blow for the saga. There would be a great amount of threads that would be left hanging. From the mystery about his mother, to some prophecies that seems to put him in a crucial spot for what’s coming.

Furthermore, he’s been our eyes at the Wall and, with Sam gone to Oldtown, he’s our only POV at the Wall right now (well, him and Melissandre, but she only have had one POV until now). Because of that, with his demise it would be very hard for us readers to have a clear view of what is happening at, and north of the Wall, which is arguably the most important thing going on right now on all Planetos.

So, it seems pretty obvious that for the story it would be much better if Jon is still around for the next two books, but…

Reading his attack for the first time, my first thoughts were that he was dead. And to me, his death was one of the greatest moments in the whole saga. It was like Ned’s death all over again. You never expected it, but it was the logical consequence of all that was happening in their respective storylines in each of their books. They tried to do what they thought was best, but they made plenty of mistakes, and annoyed a whole lot of people that could hurt them. The whole Jon storyline in ADWD it’s a great build-up for that moment. And his death would be even a greater payoff.

Then, when I thought about it, and I realized that he’s likely going to live, I couldn’t help but to be disappointed. Don’t get me wrong. I like Jonny boy, and I want him to be around for the end game. But to me his death was such a great moment that I feel kind of robbed of that moment if he lives (he will).

Also, GRRM hasn’t been shy of giving us a really major death every now and then. And most of the big characters that have bitten the dust (Ned, Cat&Robb, Joffrey, Tywin, …) have died because of some mistakes they have made, that have annoyed many people and it was a logical conclusion. Just like Jon.

Now, we’ve had a couple of books without any major death, but with a couple of teases (Tyrion or Brienne near deaths), and we end up with the big moment of Jon’s death. And it was great. We didn’t see it coming, but it was logical. It had a great build up, and it was in great part Jon’s own fault (unlike Tyrion’s and Brienne’s near deaths). And it obviously was a game changing moment. If he doesn’t die, we go back to a place where there are some untouchables, safe characters. And I don’t really like that. We need some major deaths once in a while to stay alert.

About the problem with the lack of POVs at the Wall, we can always rely on Mel for a couple of chapters, and then make somebody else go there. Or upgrade some Night Watcher or Queen’s Man to POV, if needed (I don’t think a wilding POV would really work). I mean, it would be a problem, but not a major one.

About the mysteries and prophecies… Well, prophecies are vague enough to be fulfilled somehow without Jon. And the only great mystery that would be left hanging is Jon’s mother. And that’s a big mystery more for extra-diegetic reasons (GRRM has said that it’s important, the forums know his parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna, which would be really important for the story, but only if Jon lives) that for storyline reasons (it’s been like three books since the mystery was really important in the story, and if it’s forgotten it would be ok storywise, IMHO).

So, I don’t know. It’s almost obvious that Jon should be important in the end game of the saga, and losing him would be a huge blow, but I think his death was probably the best single thing in the last two books, and I’m pissed that I’m robbed of that.

I know it sounds weird, but to me, if Jon doesn’t end up doing something really, really big, that nobody else could do, it would be much better for the story if he ends up dead by this attack.

[Waylin Stark]

In accordance with the story, I strongly believe it would make more sense for Jon to be alive and do something big.
Killing him off now at this point seems like a total waste.

Though I wouldn't object to him dying towards the end, as long as he's contributed significance to the overall plot.

[Mikkel]

Just a short note, GRRM has said there will be no new POVs (outside of prologue or epilogue I think?), and in fact he's going to start cutting down (probably pretty literally) the number of POVs.

[Jaime's severed hand]

In accordance with the story, I strongly believe it would make more sense for Jon to be alive and do something big.

Killing him off now at this point seems like a total waste.

Though I wouldn't object to him dying towards the end, as long as he's contributed significance to the overall plot.

Yeah. I said that if he ends up doing something really big, then it's obviously better for the story for him to stay alive.

But I think his arc is already a great one as it is, and I don't think it would be a total waste for him to be dead. He went from bastard, to night watcher, to "wilding" and back, to Lord Commander. And as Lord Commander he did plenty of great stuff, that ultimately led to his demise. And it would have a pretty good closure with his dead at the hands of the Night Watch.

I wouldn't feel his death like a total waste. At all. As I didn't feel Robb's or Ned's.

I don't know, we have like half a dozen guys who seem to be going to do something great, and I don't think all of them are going to make it to the final battle. If any of them have to go before the climax, I think this would be a great ending for someone like Jon. And, as I said, I feel kind of robbed of that.

[sj4iy]

Jon doesn't know who his parents are. It would be a narrative idiocy to kill Jon off before he found this out, because the story has been building it up over the past 5 books. Jon's story isn't done, so it would be bad storytelling to kill him off right now.

[RainGhost]

I agree completely with the OP. I would be so disappointed if Jon just gets a free pass. It would just undermine the series in my view. 'Nobody is safe', 'people pay for their mistakes' ... except Jon. That would seem silly. But I don't think GRRM's going to do that.

I would be happy for Jon to survive in some way as long as there's a price to pay, like he wargs Ghost or he's a reanimated corpse like Cat. If he just ends up being the same as before with no consequences then it would really suck and I'm saying that as a Jon fan.

And I also think his death now would have a huge impact, like Ned's, Robb's, Tywin's etc. He's risen high and just when you think he's going to help the realm, bam! He gets killed unjustifiably. That's a great story. But there is obviously the matter of his parents, which needs resolving and GRRM has said he will find out the truth. I trust that GRRM knows what he's doing and will do it brilliantly.

[KINGpanther]

What if Jon dies but is rezed? You have a true character death while retaining Jon in the story.

[KINGpanther]

I would be happy for Jon to survive in some way as long as there's a price to pay, like he wargs Ghost or he's a reanimated corpse like Cat. If he just ends up being the same as before with no consequences then it would really suck and I'm saying that as a Jon fan.

No way GRRM pulls a Gandalf.

[The Santa of House Claus]

Him being alive would be best for the story. I mean, if he is dead, we lose the main POV at the Wall and he has become a pivotal character. If he is dead, there will likely be fighting at the Wall between the Wildlings, Night's Watch, and Queen's Men, but no one is really there to show it, save Melisandre, and no one there that could really stop it with Jon dead and Stannis and Mance gone south.

[Mikkel]

No way GRRM pulls a Gandalf.

Well Gandalf comes back not only unharmed, but stronger, so even if Jon were to come back much the same, it wouldn't (quite) be pulling a Gandalf, but other than that, I agree with you. If GRRM has one lesson for us, it's that magic carried with it a price that must be paid, no exceptions.

[sj4iy]

I keep seeing this 'resurrection' argument...when did Martin ACTUALLY kill Jon in the story? As far as I can see, I don't see that Jon is actually dead as of this point. Given GRRM's track record with fake-outs, wouldn't it make more sense to assume Jon will live than die?

[Crowford]

I agree that Jon being dead would turn the story into a far more interesting direction. I also think it's unlikely to happen, or at least not now.

- It means his parentage doesn't matter. Great. No more "long-lost son of the rightful monarch"-bullshit. It would still be nice to have it confirmed (to provide closure and all, and to not have all those dropped hints go to waste), but this is something that can easily be done AFTER Jon is dead. Once it doesn't matter, thereby subverting one of the most predictable and cliche anticipated "twist".

- It means the certainty of prophecy is once again blemished. It also casts doubt on pretty much everything Melisandre has said so far. Jon being the prophesied warrior of light has been all but stated way too soon in the story to go without a subversion. There would be many ways to do it, but him being killed before any of it comes true would be one way.

- It means a weakening of plot armor, which has been going pretty strong since the Red Wedding, with only a singular PoV-character dying (Quentin - all theories of his survival aside), and one who had only been introduced for this book.

- As for how it made sense as a result of his actions, I defer to OP.

As I said, though, I don't think it's terribly likely.

[Jaime's severed hand]

Jon doesn't know who his parents are. It would be a narrative idiocy to kill Jon off before he found this out, because the story has been building it up over the past 5 books. Jon's story isn't done, so it would be bad storytelling to kill him off right now.

I think that Jon's parents story has not been building up so much in the last couple of books. Everybody knows that it's going to be huge in the long term, because GRRM has said so, and because the theories in the forums. But I really don't thing there had been so many references to that particular plot point in the last few books. In a saga in which we have plenty of red herrings and macguffins that never fully get resolved, by the way.

[Murat]

Hi everyone,

ähm I dont want to kill off the disscusion but Jon is not dead GRRM did spoiler it himself (is this correct that way? I'am not a native speaker)

Just a short note, GRRM has said there will be no new POVs (outside of prologue or epilogue I think?), and in fact he's going to start cutting down (probably pretty literally) the number of POVs.

and he also - recently - said that he has now the possibility to kill a lot of POV Charakter because he is now able to and will probably add new ones (I think he mentioned some Dothraki POV)

[Red Wedding Cake]

Maybe we don't need a POV of the wall anymore if we're to go "farther North than we've ever been before" and see the Heart of Winter. We can see Bran (or Benjen...) give us updates on the Others and then how prepared they are at the wall when the time is right.

R+L=J can be a benchtest of how closely people paid attention without actually giving in to the secret parentage fantasy trope.

[TheSpymaster]

[FireAndBlood.]

I think both could potentially be very good twists to the plot, if done correctly. But, I'm going to assume that by "dead", you mean dead as in Robb dead. Dead as in never coming back. In that case, I'll go with alive, because if Jon dies 4real4good at this point, his story will have been largely useless.

[TheSpymaster]

I keep seeing this 'resurrection' argument...when did Martin ACTUALLY kill Jon in the story? As far as I can see, I don't see that Jon is actually dead as of this point. Given GRRM's track record with fake-outs, wouldn't it make more sense to assume Jon will live than die?

:agree:

[Red Wedding Cake]

I think both could potentially be very good twists to the plot, if done correctly. But, I'm going to assume that by "dead", you mean dead as in Robb dead. Dead as in never coming back. In that case, I'll go with alive, because if Jon dies 4real4good at this point, his story will have been largely useless.

It's the same kind of useless feeling we get when Robb and Cat die though.

Robb died without ever making it to the South. Cat died without ever seeing her daughters again. Ned died without revealing the truth about the Lannisters. Maester Aemon died before ever making it to the Citadel or Daenerys. Daenerys will probably die before ever reaching Westeros. It's a Song of Ice and Failures where all our expectations die on the page.

[Mikkel]

I keep seeing this 'resurrection' argument...when did Martin ACTUALLY kill Jon in the story? As far as I can see, I don't see that Jon is actually dead as of this point. Given GRRM's track record with fake-outs, wouldn't it make more sense to assume Jon will live than die?

Also a possibility, but if so "resurrection" won't enter into it at all :)