Ser Rodrik and Ser Aron don't see a dagger before them

[unitron]

So Catelyn and Rodrik and the dagger get to KL, and Rodrik goes off to talk to Ser Aron Santagar, King Robert's Master at Arms, about the dagger, leaving the dagger itself with Cat.

Varys and Littlefinger insert themselves into the middle of things, bringing Cat from the inn where they're staying to see LF, and Littlefinger lies about the dagger's ownership and unfortunately Cat doesn't know not to believe anything he says and comes away thinking Tyrion was the most recent owner of the dagger.

But there's no way Rodrik tells his fellow Master at Arms "I want you to come look at 'something' ", and never tells him what or why he's in town, not at the armory, not on the way to where he and Cat are staying (I don't think even Varys has worked out how to plant a bug on a horse yet, so they could have talked about it on the ride over), not as Rodrik and Aron sit there in the inn's common room cooling their heels waiting for Cat to return.

That dagger is uncommon enough that Ser Aron is likely to have known about it, and supposedly it was actually among the weapons that went to Winterfell along with Robert, so he should for sure know about it.

But these two masters at arms spent a good sized chunk of the day together and it never gets mentioned? Ever? These guys don't talk shop?

You'd think that Rodrik would be interested in learning the history of a rare weapon like that and not just the most recent owner.

You'd think if Rodrik heard that Littlefinger lost it to Tyrion he'd check with Ser Aron to make sure it hadn't changed hands again.

But somehow Ser Rodrik magically avoids learning a thing about this dagger and therefore cannot inform Catelyn that is isn't or might not be Tyrion's after all?

Consider my credulity strained.

[Dimples]

Well, Ser Rodrik isn't exactly the brightest bulb, as evidenced by his defense of the North.

[unitron]

Well, Ser Rodrik isn't exactly the brightest bulb, as evidenced by his defense of the North.

Do you mean by how he goes about it or that he's on that side in the first place?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rodrik could have spoken to Aron about it, but the knife was plain looking, and Robert had many weapons. Perhaps Aron did not recognize the description..

The knife hadn't been Roberts for long, after all. He barely had it in hos possession for a few months, until Joff took it.

[unitron]

Rodrik could have spoken to Aron about it, but the knife was plain looking, and Robert had many weapons. Perhaps Aron did not recognize the description..

The knife hadn't been Roberts for long, after all. He barely had it in hos possession for a few months, until Joff took it.

So you're saying the knife was made from plain old common ordinary everyday Valyrian steel and dragonbone?

Two substances which were never exactly a drug on the market and no new supply of which has been produced in a long, long time (not counting Dany's 3 dragons who are ready to vigorously dispute the use of their bones for anything post-mortem and external )

I'm calling plot hole on this one.

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'll have to re-read, but Rodrik would have been under instruction to say as little as possible. Catelyn wants to talk to Ned and nobody else is supposed to be told about the dagger, IIRC, so Rodrik, dutifully wouldn't have mentioned it to anyone.

[kiasyd]

I'm calling plot hole on this one.

Nope. Straight from aGoT:

"My lady," Ser Rodrik said, "I have thought on how best to proceed while I lay abed. You must not enter the castle. I will go in your stead and bring Ser Aron to you in some safe place."

[unitron]

And Rodrik isn't going to give Aron so much as a hint of a clue as to what it's all about?

Littlefinger stashes Cat at a brothel, but they apparently pick up Rodrik along the way because he's there to keep Ned from doing a little daggering of his own on LF when led to a brothel and told that his wife is inside.

They would have gotten Rodrik from the common room of the inn where he and Aron had been sitting drinking waiting for Cat to return.

And they're going to tell Ser Aron "Never mind, we don't need you after all, run along back to the armory.", and he's not going to have any curiosity at all or demand an explanation of Rodrik for wasting his day? And that's after making the, to me, unreasonable assumption that 2 masters at arms sat there drinking all that time and didn't talk weapons at all, and that Rodrik didn't tell him anything about what had been going on in Winterfell.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

So you're saying the knife was made from plain old common ordinary everyday Valyrian steel and dragonbone?

Two substances which were never exactly a drug on the market and no new supply of which has been produced in a long, long time (not counting Dany's 3 dragons who are ready to vigorously dispute the use of their bones for anything post-mortem and external )

I'm calling plot hole on this one.

Perhaps you should reread my post, because I did not say that ;)

I did not say that the knife was plain. I said that the knife was plain looking. There a difference.

Several observations:

1) It seems necessary to study the knife, to discover that it was Valyrian steel. Ser Rodrik looked "long and hard".

2) Robert owned the knife for roughly 3 months only. He had won it in a tourney

3) Robert took the knife with him to Winterfell, Ser Aron remained behind in KL. Ser Aron only had about two or three weeks to see the dagger.

It isn't even known whether Robert showed the knife to Ser Aron.. Is it so weird to consider that Robert, after bragging to Jaime about winning the dagger, tossed it amongst his other weapons, where it went it could go mostly unnoticed by Ser Aron. And even if Ser Aron saw it amongst the kings weapons once, in those few weeks that he had the oppertunity to, the fact that it is Valyrian steel seems to be "hidden" a bit by the fact the entire knife looks plain.

Ser Aron not being able to tell Rodrik anything, had Rodrik even told him about it, is not a weird thing.

[Tolsimir]

This whole episode with the dagger was like a sequence of unfortunate events. Pretty much everything that could have been done wrong by Cat and Rodrik was done.

[Dimples]

This whole episode with the dagger was like a sequence of unfortunate events. Pretty much everything that could have been done wrong by Cat and Rodrik was done.

That can also be said for some other episodes involving Cassel...

[unitron]

Perhaps you should reread my post, because I did not say that ;)

I did not say that the knife was plain. I said that the knife was plain looking. There a difference.

Several observations:

1) It seems necessary to study the knife, to discover that it was Valyrian steel. Ser Rodrik looked "long and hard".

2) Robert owned the knife for roughly 3 months only. He had won it in a tourney

3) Robert took the knife with him to Winterfell, Ser Aron remained behind in KL. Ser Aron only had about two or three weeks to see the dagger.

It isn't even known whether Robert showed the knife to Ser Aron.. Is it so weird to consider that Robert, after bragging to Jaime about winning the dagger, tossed it amongst his other weapons, where it went it could go mostly unnoticed by Ser Aron. And even if Ser Aron saw it amongst the kings weapons once, in those few weeks that he had the oppertunity to, the fact that it is Valyrian steel seems to be "hidden" a bit by the fact the entire knife looks plain.

Ser Aron not being able to tell Rodrik anything, had Rodrik even told him about it, is not a weird thing.

"It seemed to me that it was altogether too fine a weapon for such a man, so I looked at it long and hard."

He immediately noticed that it was "quality", and likely studied it in hopes of being able to tell if it was the work of any armorer with whose work he was familiar.

I'd think the dragonbone hilt alone would be enough to mark it as uncommon.

Put two masters at arms together at a table with a flagon or three of wine and they're going to talk shop.

And Rodrik is going to want to have some results from his plan to offer his employer besides "I spent the afternoon drinking".

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"It seemed to me that it was altogether too fine a weapon for such a man, so I looked at it long and hard."

He immediately noticed that it was "quality", and likely studied it in hopes of being able to tell if it was the work of any armorer with whose work he was familiar.

I'd think the dragonbone hilt alone would be enough to mark it as uncommon.

Put two masters at arms together at a table with a flagon or three of wine and they're going to talk shop.

And Rodrik is going to want to have some results from his plan to offer his employer besides "I spent the afternoon drinking".

That is still assuming that Ser Aron had seen it before.

With the knife (in Robert's posession) having only been about 3 weeks in the same city as Ser Aron, that is perhaps not the most likely scenario. Would Robert order his squires to put the knife with the others? Or would he have Ser Aron inspect it? I'd say the first, because why would inspection be needed?

The knife did not look all too impressive, but still, it was good quality, and thus, unlikely to belong so someone so obviously lowborn and poor. That raised suspicion, and caused Rodrik to look "long and hard", which caused him to discover that it was Valyrian Steel (which is weird, because you'd expect him to notice that after a short inspection, not after a long and hard inspection... But that's what's in the text).

So Rodrik might have questioned Aron about the dagger, if he dared, whilst they were waiting, but there is absolutely no indication that Aron had known about the dagger at all.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I think the bigger question to ask in regards to the dagger is, with all his knowledge didn't Varys know Tyrion loved and always bet on his brother?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I think the bigger question to ask in regards to the dagger is, with all his knowledge didn't Varys know Tyrion loved and always bet on his brother?

Who says Varys didn't know that LF was lying? ;)

[aryagonnakill#2]

Ya he certainly could have but his meeting with Ilyrio seems to suggest they didn't want the conflict starting as early as it did. It seems like he missed a golden opportunity to get LF out of the game. Unless he wanted him in the game knowing at some point the chaos he sews would be beneficial.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ya he certainly could have but his meeting with Ilyrio seems to suggest they didn't want the conflict starting as early as it did. It seems like he missed a golden opportunity to get LF out of the game. Unless he wanted him in the game knowing at some point the chaos he sews would be beneficial.

Taking LF out would have been usefull in one way, but not in another.. There was a theory (I read it about a year ago) where someone suggested that LF would have instructed someone to take Varys down as soon as LF himself died. I'm not sure how well that would work out, though.

Taking LF out would have slowed things a little too much, perhaps. But also, what could Varys say to Catelyn? "No, that dagger wasn't Tyrions."?

LF would laugh, and Catelyn would believe her old friend over the man she thought was creepy..

[Eat My Steel]

Who says Varys didn't know that LF was lying? ;)

Varys was probably sitting back playing ignorant to see how all of this would shake out. Cat taking Tyrion hostage is something he didn't count on, and for that matter neither did Cat until right before she did it. Of course Varys knew, he always knows...

I think trying to dig up a possible plot hole here is a little silly. We don't know that Rodrick even found Santagar or if Santagar would drop everything and chase off to some inn for whatever reason. I think this is making something of nothing.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Varys was probably sitting back playing ignorant to see how all of this would shake out. Cat taking Tyrion hostage is something he didn't count on, and for that matter neither did Cat until right before she did it. Of course Varys knew, he always knows...

I think trying to dig up a possible plot hole here is a little silly. We don't know that Rodrick even found Santagar or if Santagar would drop everything and chase off to some inn for whatever reason. I think this is making something of nothing.

Exactly. He wouldn't have been believed if he had said anything, but why would he even try? LF provides the Starks with "hatred" feelings against the Lannisters, and that fits in Varys' plans.. That the fights escalated the way they did so quickly, he could not have predicted.

[OberynBlackfyre]

"It seemed to me that it was altogether too fine a weapon for such a man, so I looked at it long and hard."

He immediately noticed that it was "quality", and likely studied it in hopes of being able to tell if it was the work of any armorer with whose work he was familiar.

I'd think the dragonbone hilt alone would be enough to mark it as uncommon.

Put two masters at arms together at a table with a flagon or three of wine and they're going to talk shop.

And Rodrik is going to want to have some results from his plan to offer his employer besides "I spent the afternoon drinking".

I think you sre putting way too much stock in the fact that Aron knew and even saw the dagger. Robert was a man of weapons, the dagger could have easily went from anyone to Robert and then Robert takes it to his bedchamber and puts it in his own "weapon chest". A Master at arms is meant to watch over the castles garrison and weaponry. not the Kings own personal stash.

Also Rodrik was commanded NOT to lead on why they were in the capital. Which is why Catelyn was trying to be all stealth. Sure he and Santagar might have talked, but there is so much more to talk about than the dagger. Also remember that this is a feudal society.....soo if the Master of Coin AND Master of Whispers both tell you they will take it from there then Santagar would not question it, because he couldn't.