When victims become abusers: Where do you draw the line with empathy?

[MisterOJ]

So I just finished reading through "Would you marry this person" thread and this question popped into my head. But, I didn't feel like that thread was the proper place for it.

I believe many (maybe even most?) abusers were at some time victims of abuse themselves. At some point, they then turn around and redistribute that abuse they experienced earlier in life when they become an abuser.

Victims deserve our empathy, I think everyone can agree on that. But, when the victim comes full circle and is unable to break the cycle of abuse, do they lose any realistic claim to empathy? One of the things that stood out to me was that we shouldn't blame victims for having the lack of willpower to get out of an abusive relationship. And I agree with that totally. The flip side of that coin is, should someone who was once abused be blamed for not having the willpower to end the cycle of abuse?

I think that is a damn hard question. I don't know the answer as I can see both sides.

[Sci-2]

"No one deserves to be subjected to the appalling instruments of cruelty. Nevertheless, even at the cost of misanthropy, one cannot afford to pretend that victimhood improves anyone in any way. If we do not remember that anyone can be a victim, and if we allow hatred for torture, or pity for pain, to blind us, we will unwittingly aid the torturers of tomorrow by overrating the victims of today. One may be too easily tempted to think of all victims as equally innocent because there cannot, by definition, be a voluntary victim. That may have the consequence of promoting an endless exchange of cruelties between alternating tormentors and victims."

-Judith Shklar

[jet199]

Unless that person is kept in a sealed culture where abuse is viewed as normal I think that as soon as you are an adult then you are responsible for your actions. I don't believe anyone just loses control. They make a decision to abuse and if they are in a cycle of behaviour they have a hard time getting out of then they can get help to break that cycle. The reason a person continues to abuse long after they rationally know that it is wrong is that they blame their behaviour on external factors, such as previous abuse, the victims actions or "they just can't help themselves", rather than admitting responsibility and working to change themselves.

Every villain has a sob story to excuse themselves if we were to let them off the hook because of it no one would go to jail everywhere would be crime ridden anarchy (in fact it is though that the number of abused people who go on to abuse is highly over estimated because so many criminals falsely claim they were abused in hope they will get a lighter sentence because of it, there is a far greater link between being a psychopath and being an abuser than being abused and becoming an abuser). The vast majority of people who have had the same problems do not go on to abuse so it is unlikely the abuse is the main cause. I have also met people who have had perfectly happy lives but have become abusive and mostly it has been about them wanting control and power.

You can have empathy for everyone but that doesn't mean you mollycoddle them. In fact often if you really care about someone then you have to be though with them. Abuse is often a cycle of behaviour, like an addiction, and, like with addicts, sometimes the only thing you can do is stop enabling and let that person deal with the consequences of their actions. This means punishment for criminals.

I have a two friends who are in a emotionally abusive relationship and I have sympathy for the abusive partner because they are a truly miserable person who is convinced they are socially inept, and has panic attacks because of that belief, even though they are actually very manipulative. However my sympathy does not stop me from placing the blame with the abuser or realising that it is their responsibility to sort themselves out, to stop feeling sorry for themselves and look at the hurt their actions cause. Unfortunately many of their other friends don't see it that way and the aggressive behaviour and manipulation is written off as an "problem" or "illness" (which is laughable as it can be turned on or off like a light-switch, like a toddler having a tantrum gets distracted by a toy). So the abuse continues because responsibility is removed from the abuser and placed on an imaginary psychological illness.

[Stannisaurus2]

I generally believe that everyone is responsible for their actions and that past victimhood cannot really mitigate current abuses (maybe just a tiny bit but not much). I don't have a problem with someone taking the opposite view, as long as their judgments are consistent.

[A wilding]

However my sympathy does not stop me from placing the blame with the abuser or realising that it is their responsibility to sort themselves out, to stop feeling sorry for themselves and look at the hurt their actions cause.

But what if the abuser, as a result of their abusive upbringing, is actually not sane? Are insane people still responsible for their actions?

[TrackerNeil]

I think we can have empathy for a person who is fully responsible for his/her bad behavior. The two are not mutually exclusive.

[Goddess Dictator]

Here is my thought on this:

there is absolutely a line where you go from victim to abuser. And when you cross that line you no longer deserve sympathy.

Everyone has choices.

My father was abused by his mother horribly. I was abused by both of them. Guess what? When I grew up I worked very hard and did therapy and did anger management classes and have in general busted my ass off to be a decent human being. Does this mean I have never ever been abusive? no. I had early 20's bi polar onset (thanks again dad and grandma - who also have it) and it threw me off for awhile because I had no idea what was going on I just knew I was suddenly way less patient and way more violent. Took me awhile but I got help. I take my meds every single damn day and I will for life and I have for ten years. I work hard to be good to others and treat the people in my life well.

Because I CHOSE to. see my point? My dad CHOSE to abuse me as well. When he did that he crossed that line. So while yes some of us have more to overcome than others and some of us have been through some pretty gnarly shit, that is never an excuse or justification for your OWN actions.

Ok I sound really hard core on my opinion here. I mean if you develop drug issues or a drinking problem or something b/c of abuse I'm more sympathetic to that. Hell I've struggled with that a LOT myself. But I think when you actually start abusing OTHERS the way you were abused you give up your right to sympathy. If someone else has a different view please feel free. This doesn't mean I don't have any sympathy for victims who become abusers, it just means I dont' feel like I need to be in their life and help them b/c it will be detrimental to me.

GD

[TrackerNeil]

Ok I sound really hard core on my opinion here. I mean if you develop drug issues or a drinking problem or something b/c of abuse I'm more sympathetic to that. Hell I've struggled with that a LOT myself. But I think when you actually start abusing OTHERS the way you were abused you give up your right to sympathy. If someone else has a different view please feel free. This doesn't mean I don't have any sympathy for victims who become abusers, it just means I dont' feel like I need to be in their life and help them b/c it will be detrimental to me.

Well, I don't think you sound too out-there. There's a difference between having no sympathy for someone and feeling that someone deserves no sympathy. I think that abusers can, and often do, deserve sympathy, but that doesn't mean I expect the victims to offer much of it.

[Solmyr]

there is absolutely a line where you go from victim to abuser. And when you cross that line you no longer deserve sympathy.

Everyone deserves sympathy. It's easy to be sympathetic towards victims.

[armidil0]

Just because you feel they need to be punished doesn't mean you can't still feel sympathetic, or empathetic to their past/present/future state of life.

[zelticgar]

This is a topic that hits pretty close to home. My family has been dealing with a situation where the abuser has successfully isolated a weak victim. The main problem with this scenario is that after attempting to help the victim break away from the abuser we were not able to successfully convince her to leave. Now she has limited communication with the family and has isolated the kids, leaving them exposed to the abusive husband. At a certain point in this scenario the victim makes a decision to continue exposing the kids to the abuser. In this scenario I have sympathy for the victim because she clearly has some mental health issues but my level of sympathy has gone down significantly now that she has chosen to raise the kids in an abusive environment when she had a clear option to make a change.

These are sad situations no matter how they play out. The older I get the more I see of these weird relationships. Its really sad and eventually it will be passed down to the kids.

[TrackerNeil]

Yes, I think it is important to remember that just as the abuser has a choice, so does the victim. That's not victim-blaming but a recognition that part of breaking the cycle of abuse is getting the abused to make a decision to get out of the situation. That's not easy, because of course many people who endure abuse are themselves struggling with emotional problems.

[deleted01]

<snip>

Because I CHOSE to. see my point? My dad CHOSE to abuse me as well. When he did that he crossed that line. So while yes some of us have more to overcome than others and some of us have been through some pretty gnarly shit, that is never an excuse or justification for your OWN actions.

Totally agree with your entire post, the quoted part in particular.

My dad was physically and mentally abused by his father, who died a bitter old man, alone in a carehome. My dad then turned his anger on to his own children. One of the main reasons why I don't want to have children is because I'm concerned about what kind of parent I'd be. I am nowhere near as patient enough for kids.

I have also tried my hardest not to be like my dad was. I've worked on my own anger issues, and try to keep my cool as often as possible. It's harder with my family, and I'm certainly not perfect, but I too have tried not to let my past completely influence my attitudes and behaviour towards others.

I struggle to have sympathy for my brother. Our dad died on his 10th birthday, 5 years ago, and while everyone understands that it must have been hard for him, I've run out of patience with him. I call it the sins of the father. My brother has done nothing to help himself, and although he has improved somewhat over the last few years, he can still be a nightmare. If he refuses to stop the cycle of abusive and aggressive men in our family, then I seriously struggle to be sympathetic towards him.

[sologdin]

one can empathize with another's loss even while hanging them from the neck until dead as punishment for offenses committed because of the loss aforesaid. it is possible, probably unavoidable, to hold multiple potentially contradictory beliefs, thoughts, or emotions at the same time regarding the same thing. no need to brainwash it out.

[Goddess Dictator]

Thank you. I appreciate the thoughts here. Yes I think for those of us who have worked at it, it's a bit harder to have sympathy for those that continue to abuse without facing their issues.

Also let me be clear, there is a difference in my mind b/w those that are damaged but trying, and those that simply aren't trying. In the case of my father he's a verified sociopath, so there's zero chance he'll ever get better. I guess that makes it hard for me to have sympathy if that makes sense? An alcoholic can get better. A drug addict can get better. A sociopath... well not so much. It's not really a fixable problem that he has. And he is unrepentant and does not care. Thus no sympathy?

Now I feel for your brother but I understand where you're coming from. There is a point with any type of abuser where you have to draw the line and say "I love you, but you are doing too much damage to me and I need you out of my life" and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

ok for some reason it's not letting me quote you Dracarya but this was directed at you.

also thank you sologdin. I agree. I am a very empathetic person, So I guess what's coming across is the effort I've had to put into allowing myself the distance I need from people who are damaging to me. Basically I had to chant "You don't owe them anything. It's ok to walk away." for a long time. So it's not that I don't have sympathy, It's that with someone like a sociopath having sympathy is deadly. just saying.

GD

[sologdin]

is sociopathy a willful condition, or a disorder that requires treatment? are there any such things as willful conditions?

[TrackerNeil]

Now I feel for your brother but I understand where you're coming from. There is a point with any type of abuser where you have to draw the line and say "I love you, but you are doing too much damage to me and I need you out of my life" and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Not at all. No one should be expected to endure abuse in order to help another human being. Abusers often deserve our sympathy and our assistance, but they do not deserve an opportunity to hurt us.

[Goddess Dictator]

Sologdin:

In my personal experience and lots of professional research it's not fixable. Basically sociopaths and psychopaths are unable to feel normal human emotion. This isn't a perfect metaphor but try to take it the way I mean it: it's like being born blind or deaf. You can't really fix it. It just is. A part of their brain doesn't develop correctly. There's also an argument that if they don't bond well at a young age it will make it worse or trigger it. It's kind of a either/or argument among psychologists right now. but they lean toward the failure to bond theory. I tend to lean more towards a genetic predisposition aggravated by not bonding.

So they are incapable of feeling bad about anything they do. They are also incapable of comprehending why what they've done is so damaging. It's also why most serial killers are sociopaths or psychopaths. They commit extreme acts in order to TRY and feel something. But they really can't.

I can remember feeling really sad for my dad when HIS father died. He was standing there in the hospital parking lot telling me his dad had just died and he had the most confused look on his face. It said really clearly "I know I'm supposed to feel SOMETHING. My dad just died." but he didn't and he couldn't and it made me sad.

[armidil0]

Shouldn't an incurable condition reap a little sympathy? A "You can't help it in the end" thing? Or is that just something an outsider looking in thinks of?

[Goddess Dictator]

It does reap sympathy. See my last post. BUT it's an incurable condition that results almost always in someone who is a terrible human being that loves to abuse others. The problem is showing a sociopath sympathy just reads to them as "weak. take advantage." And they will. Always.

Basically think of it like this: all the things that keep us as humans from doing terrible things like "I feel bad about it." or "I don't want to hurt this person" or "I wouldn't want that done to me" just don't apply. They are like sharks. Don't show fear. Don't show any weakness. And get the hell away.

So I have sympathy for him from a FAR FAR distance.

But I feel like I'm highjacking the thread. Sorry. Basically if someone isn't a sociopath or psychopath then you may be able to help them, and you may not be able to help them. But I still feel there is a line for these things. Like if you kill your wife and kids, you probably won't get my sympathy no matter how abused you were. But that's just me.