R+L= J v. 106

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I did, and all due respect to Lady Gwyn who's an awesome poster here (big fan of her Arthurian stuff, hope to hear some of that covered in a future ep!), but I didn't buy it for a moment.

Brienne is an adult woman who's extraordinarily tall (GRRM says close to the same size as Robert, who's 6'6) and heavily built, so the fact that her voice, when muffled, could be mistaken for a man is poor evidence that the same could be said for a 14 year-old girl of no noted size.

The muffled sounds = more bass thing sounds better at first, but doesn't hold up to examination. A metal helmet is not nearly as good an insulator of sound as a nightclub full of people surrounded by walls, and the reason you hear bass in those situations is because shorter wavelengths (higher frequencies) are attenuated more quickly, meaning that of the sounds that were already there, you hear a greater proportion of the lower-pitched sounds. The bass isn't boosted, the treble is cut. It's got to be there in the first place, and typically a 14 year old girl doesn't have the deep vocal tract to produce a boom regardless of whether the higher frequencies in her voice are attenuated or not.

As for the resonance effect, a quick back-of-an-envelope calculation gives around 500hz for the resonant frequency of a helmet treated as a cavity resonator, much too high to boom -- though that's a very rough approximation.

I think the simplest way of putting my feelings on the matter though is to say this: imagine you are not primed with looking for an explanation for Lyanna having a booming voice. How would you describe the effects of a helmet on the voice of a 14 year old girl?

"spoke in a tinny voice through his helm"

"spoke in a muffled voice through his helm"

"spoke in a booming voice through his helm"

I find the last option really unlikely.

As J Stargaryen says, maybe that's just GRRM's way of trying to indicate that she was trying hard to put on as deep and loud a voice as she could to disguise who she is. It's perfectly possible, though it would be an unusually clumsy choice of words for him. I'd prefer to think that something else is going on!

First of all, of thank you for those kind words. (Especially about Arthurian legend which will absolutely be a RW feature one day!) And I'm really pleased that some of you are listening to E05 and giving feedback :D

Now, I'm sure you can guess that I disagree with you wholeheartedly. And the reason is quite simple. Whenever I look for "proof" of something in GRRM's writing, I look first for hints and parallels. That is, George inevitably plants clues to his mysteries (great and small) in unexpected places (as Ygrain discussed in her segment of the episode) So for me, the Brienne scene is absolutely about George saying "see-- a girl in a helm can sound like a dude!" It's worth noting that (afaik) Brienne is never described as sounding like a man other than that scene. Also, take this line from the the beginning of the tale "but then they heard a roar" -- that was undoubtedly Lyanna, described as roaring and howling. Hardly a delicate young lady's voice.

What I don't ever expect from George is the kind of in depth, technical forethought that ruling out Lyanna on the basis of the booming voice would require. Would George be expected to know that low bass sounds travel through material easier than higher frequencies? As a rock and roll fan, yes he would. Would he be expected to make calculations about hertz and wavelengths and the timbre of a female voice that require expert knowledge? I think not. That's why we chose the example we did. As we said in the episode, someone trying to disguise their voice to be deeper would be well served by speaking from inside a closed helmet due to the simple and obvious fact that bass sounds travel better through material than treble.

The thing is, we have to color our interpretations through the lens of the way we know GRRM writes. That's exactly why we chose the two examples we used. Because GRRM is not an expert on every subject he writes about (including sword fighting and the physics of dragon flight ...) we sometimes have to let go of our impulse to apply expert level, real world knowledge and take things at face value. Imo it comes down to this question: which is more likely, that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT and then expected his readers to twig misdirection based upon something that would require a very technical explanation to interpret, or that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT including one hint carefully hidden pages away that a girl in a helm can sound like a man?

[Le Cygne]

Imo it comes down to this question: which is more likely, that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT and then expected his readers to twig misdirection based upon something that would require a very technical explanation to interpret, or that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT including one hint carefully hidden pages away that a girl in a helm can sound like a man?

That's a great way to put it, and you could apply that reasoning to a lot of other storylines, too.

[yolkboy]

I did, and all due respect to Lady Gwyn who's an awesome poster here (big fan of her Arthurian stuff, hope to hear some of that covered in a future ep!), but I didn't buy it for a moment.

Brienne is an adult woman who's extraordinarily tall (GRRM says close to the same size as Robert, who's 6'6) and heavily built, so the fact that her voice, when muffled, could be mistaken for a man is poor evidence that the same could be said for a 14 year-old girl of no noted size.

The muffled sounds = more bass thing sounds better at first, but doesn't hold up to examination. A metal helmet is not nearly as good an insulator of sound as a nightclub full of people surrounded by walls, and the reason you hear bass in those situations is because shorter wavelengths (higher frequencies) are attenuated more quickly, meaning that of the sounds that were already there, you hear a greater proportion of the lower-pitched sounds. The bass isn't boosted, the treble is cut. It's got to be there in the first place, and typically a 14 year old girl doesn't have the deep vocal tract to produce a boom regardless of whether the higher frequencies in her voice are attenuated or not.

As for the resonance effect, a quick back-of-an-envelope calculation gives around 500hz for the resonant frequency of a helmet treated as a cavity resonator, much too high to boom -- though that's a very rough approximation.

I think the simplest way of putting my feelings on the matter though is to say this: imagine you are not primed with looking for an explanation for Lyanna having a booming voice. How would you describe the effects of a helmet on the voice of a 14 year old girl?

"spoke in a tinny voice through his helm"

"spoke in a muffled voice through his helm"

"spoke in a booming voice through his helm"

I find the last option really unlikely.

As J Stargaryen says, maybe that's just GRRM's way of trying to indicate that she was trying hard to put on as deep and loud a voice as she could to disguise who she is. It's perfectly possible, though it would be an unusually clumsy choice of words for him. I'd prefer to think that something else is going on!

Rather than turning to the wonderful science of sound-engineering, and guesstimates regarding resonant frequencies (I'm not sure Grrm was sitting at home with his oscilloscope when writing the kotlt) - I'll point out something very simple that can be practically demonstrated. You can make your voice sound lower and booming if you put a metal object over your head.

I've just face-timed with LG and put a small bin over my head. My voice boomed. I've explained the basic reason for this.

I think you also have to bear in mind that this is a fantasy story, and if Grrm wants to have a young girl make her voice boom through a metal helm, one who has already given us a "roar" and a "howl", a girl who has just whooped 3 squires with a tourney sword, in a book where a 9 year old girl stabs people and is becoming a world class assassin - Lyanna could have made her voice boom through that helm.

If the biggest objection to Lyanna not being the KotLT is people's lack of imagination, I think we're looking good.

[BearQueen87]

Imo it comes down to this question: which is more likely, that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT and then expected his readers to twig misdirection based upon something that would require a very technical explanation to interpret, or that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT including one hint carefully hidden pages away that a girl in a helm can sound like a man?

Completely agree. Well said.

I've just face-timed with LG and put a small bin over my head. My voice boomed. I've explained the basic reason for this.

If ever you guys do a blooper reel of Radio Westoers, I humbly ask that this be part of it.

[yolkboy]

Completely agree. Well said.

If ever you guys do a blooper reel of Radio Westoers, I humbly ask that this be part of it.

Here you go.... my practical bin-on head demonstration :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QeKTq5B8c5

of course i recorded in-bin, but LG assures me my voice was booming.

[BearQueen87]

Here you go.... my practical bin-on head demonstration :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QeKTq5B8c5

of course i recorded in-bin, but LG assures me my voice was booming.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That made my whole day!

And pretty easily demonstrates how Lyanna could do what she did with her own voice/metal bin.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. That made my whole day!

And pretty easily demonstrates how Lyanna could do what she did with her own voice/metal bin.

I wish we could've also included the visual ;)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I wish we could've also included the visual ;)

Ah, no pictures? :(

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Ah, no pictures? :(

No, but I can tell you it was somewhere between this and this

:lol:

[sj4iy]

Here you go.... my practical bin-on head demonstration :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QeKTq5B8c5

of course i recorded in-bin, but LG assures me my voice was booming.

LMAO!!!

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

No, but I can tell you it was somewhere between this and this

:lol:

Beautiful! :D

[Nozlym]

Here you go.... my practical bin-on head demonstration :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QeKTq5B8c5

of course i recorded in-bin, but LG assures me my voice was booming.

well done lol

[Kingmonkey]

If those are your standards for when you think something is bad writing or distracting, I suspect you must find virtually every piece of fiction that you read to be littered with bad writing and distractions.

(snip)

But I try not to blame the author--to make fiction interesting, some deviations often are necessary. This particular deviation seems to me to be quite minimal.

I pretty much agree with you both sides of the snip, and don't see an issue with the meeting of the two. I don't blame GRRM for the odd bit of bad writing (whether or not this particular case is indeed one), because they are inevitable. If I didn't enjoy his writing immensely, I wouldn't be on this board!

We can admire a great sportsman for their talent, yet at the same time observe flaws in their game. I gave that "If I'd been GRRM's editor" line as, to stretch the metaphor, the editor is a writer's coach rather than just a fan. The fan may observe a flaw while enjoying the performance, the coach picks up on the flaws and attempts to help eliminate them. Perfection may be unattainable, but it's an editor's job to help the writer get as close to it as is feasible.

Contrary to popular opinion, it's perfectly possible for a critic -- or editor -- to enjoy a work even as they dissect it's slightest flaw. ;^)

[Kingmonkey]

Here you go.... my practical bin-on head demonstration :)

http://vocaroo.com/i/s0QeKTq5B8c5

of course i recorded in-bin, but LG assures me my voice was booming.

That's hilarious, well done sir. :^D

Just don't get me started on the differences between an echo chamber and a Helmholtz resonator, you wouldn't enjoy it!

[Kingmonkey]

First of all, of thank you for those kind words. (Especially about Arthurian legend which will absolutely be a RW feature one day!)

I'm looking forwards to that one already. By the way, over the next couple of days I'm going to get back to editing up and posting an essay on the Tower of Joy I think you'll find interesting. It follows the same Tower of Joy = Joyeuse Garde / Lyanna kidnapping story vs. Melwas story from Caradoc of Llancfarn line you took in one of your essays but emphasises the story's origins in Celtic myth rather than focusing on it as a part of the Arthurian cycle.

So for me, the Brienne scene is absolutely about George saying "see-- a girl in a helm can sound like a dude!" It's worth noting that (afaik) Brienne is never described as sounding like a man other than that scene.

Fair enough, but I don't see those two things as parallel myself. Brienne may never later be described as sounding like a man, but she's continually being mistaken for a man, and the way I read that passage was emphasising the degree to which Brienne confounds expectation.

If we look for hints and parallels, then Brienne's voice is "muffled" rather than "booming". These two concepts are poles apart. A booming noise is clearer and easier to hear, a muffled voice is harder to discern. GRRM could easily have put in a line about some male knight sounding deeper and more commanding in their helmet, and then we'd have a good parallel. Had the KotLT's voice been described as indistinct, you'd have a much better parallel with Brienne, but muffling a 14 year-old girl's voice doesn't make it boom.

Also, take this line from the the beginning of the tale "but then they heard a roar" -- that was undoubtedly Lyanna, described as roaring and howling. Hardly a delicate young lady's voice.

True, and in my mind actually a much better argument than the Brienne parallel or the nightclub parallel.

What I don't ever expect from George is the kind of in depth, technical forethought that ruling out Lyanna on the basis of the booming voice would require.

Oh absolutely. Nor should we take travel logistics very seriously, or make an attempt to believe that the Iron Islands make any sense without a skilled stunt double ready to take the fall for us. My argument is really more literary than acoustic; I think that in this context, "booming" would be an awkward description of a 14 year old girl attempting to sound like a man. The acoustics is just to explain why I think that. We are all primed to accept the booming voice as being feasiible for Lyanna, because we expect it to be Lyanna. Just as Catelyn expected Brienne to be a man. It's very hard to step outside of that priming and judge the wording on its own merits. I do recall being quite certain the KotLT was Lyanna right up until I read the booming voice line on first reading, and it's that recollection that prompts me to question it now, even though I expect it to be Lyanna.

Imo it comes down to this question: which is more likely, that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT and then expected his readers to twig misdirection [...snip...] or that GRRM laid a host of clues for Lyanna being TKotLT including one hint carefully hidden pages away that a girl in a helm can sound like a man?

Possibly neither. Perhaps he thought that line would rule out Lyanna for most readers. Perhaps he didn't expect readers to twig misdirection but simply wanted to preserve ambiguity until a later time when more information is available. His choice of using nicknames rather than real names throughout, and especially Jojen's "Or not" certainly seem intended to flag this as ambiguous and uncertain information. Is the reader really meant to be certain of the KotLT's identity at this time?

Lyanna certainly does seem to be the leading candidate (though I wouldn't dismiss Howland or Benjen). If it is indeed Lyanna, the "booming voice" needs an answer. Perhaps it's just a little clumsy, or perhaps it means something (or perhaps my reading of the word phrase is just a bit freakish). One of GRRM's favourite techniques for a reveal is to foreshadow it with a hint that is designed to raise suspicion in the close reader, and foreshadow that with something that isn't supposed to be noticed, or at least understood, until you re-read with later context. My 'what if' of it being someone else's voice speaking through Lyanna is a play on the possibility that the "booming voice" may be an example of the latter.

[EddardsHead]

If R+L=J were true, and Aegon were to get the IT, would Aegon accept Jon as being his brother?

[Nozlym]

If R+L=J were true, and Aegon were to get the IT, would Aegon accept Jon as being his brother?

depends if the info gets out

[BearQueen87]

If R+L=J were true, and Aegon were to get the IT, would Aegon accept Jon as being his brother?

If Jon has no intention of taking the throne from Aegon, then maybe, especially if Jon is determined to stick to his vows.

But as I don't think Aegon is really Rhaegar Targaryen's son and won't be living past WoW....in fact I don't think the two will ever even meet.

[EddardsHead]

If Jon has no intention of taking the throne from Aegon, then maybe, especially if Jon is determined to stick to his vows.

But as I don't think Aegon is really Rhaegar Targaryen's son and won't be living past WoW....in fact I don't think the two will ever even meet.

I agree as well that they probably will never meet, would be pretty cool if they did though.

[addicted to snow]

If R+L=J were true, and Aegon were to get the IT, would Aegon accept Jon as being his brother?

Jon has some dark roads to walk... Once he becomes an antagonist, we really don't know what will be motivating him, what his goals will be, or who/what he will be in league with. All we really know is that he will be a powerful force to be reckoned with in Westeros. Should anyone receive Jon's nod / blessing to become the King, I think it will be Tyrion (based on the way GRRM described their parting handshake)...