R+L= J v. 106

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I like the Arthurian comparisons quite a bit. We know Martin draws on history and other works for his inspiration so it is nice to hear of those potential sources. It might be nice to do a podcast specifically on those he has mentioned and their relationship to ASoIaF. I think you'd excel at it. I'm almost through the podcast now. Great job again. It was exciting to see it pop up in the feed this morning. Something to pass the time slogging it into work.

Thanks so much! Glad to hear we can brighten someone's day :)

And yes (OT though it may be here) it will probably come as no surprise to those that know me that one day we do plan to do an episode much as you describe ;)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Relevant bump attempt:

How would you prefer for Jon to find out: Howland Reed or communication somehow with Bran who has learned from his tree?

While my view is not a completely original thought--my personal suspicion is that Jon finds out while in a "coma" after the attack at the end of DwD. Although I think he wargs into Ghost during this coma, I think he also has the repeat of his crypt vision, but being in a coma (and being in Ghost) he does not wake up in the middle of the vision as has happened in the past. I think during this vision he meets his mother (not his father--Rhaegar was not buried in the crypt) and learns her identity in the vision. No, I don't think Lyanna sings Jon a song, and I don't think it is a joyous reunion. Other than the identity of his mother--and presumably, at a minimum by implication, also the identity of his biological father, I am not sure how much other details he will learn--like the truth behind the "kidnapping" and whether R&L were married. Those detail may need to wait for Howland Reed to reveal (maybe). So it is possible that even after R+L=J is confirmed in book 6, perhaps confirmation of R+L=legit J might need to wait for book 7. That approach would seem consistent with the way that GRRM likes to reveal his mysteries.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

While my view is not a completely original thought--my personal suspicion is that Jon finds out while in a "coma" after the attack at the end of DwD. Although I think he wargs into Ghost during this coma, I think he also has the repeat of his crypt vision, but being in a coma (and being in Ghost) he does not wake up in the middle of the vision as has happened in the past. I think during this vision he meets his mother (not his father--Rhaegar was not buried in the crypt) and learns her identity in the vision. No, I don't think Lyanna sings Jon a song, and I don't think it is a joyous reunion. Other than the identity of his mother--and presumably, at a minimum by implication, also the identity of his biological father, I am not sure how much other details he will learn--like the truth behind the "kidnapping" and whether R&L were married. Those detail may need to wait for Howland Reed to reveal (maybe). So it is possible that even after R+L=J is confirmed in book 6, perhaps confirmation of R+L=legit J might need to wait for book 7. That approach would seem consistent with the way that GRRM likes to reveal his mysteries.

Interesting, and definitely possible that Jon has a dream while in Ghost. I also think that there's a likelihood of Bran having revealing weirwood visions, and that perhaps the two will work together. I agree completely that we're unlikely to get a reveal of the entire thing in one big chunk. I see it more as an escalation of hints and evidences that we the readers will need to add up to arrive at the conclusion.

[BearQueen87]

Hey Folks!

Thought you'd all like to know that E05 of Radio Westeros is available at last, and it's all about RLJ :)

Here's a breakdown of what we discuss in the extended episode:

• Summary of RLJ

Knight of the Laughing Tree

Blue Roses

Kidnapping Theory

Jon's Similarities with R + L, with Ygrain!

Tower of Joy analysis courtesy of Mtn Lion

For the First Time in Years -- Ned + Rhaegar

Music by Joel Murray

The meaning of 'A Song of Ice and Fire'

RLJ's relevance in ASoIaF

... plus our usual assortment of readings and extra touches, with an advert from Westeros courtesy of our own Alia!

Listen or download here

Subscribe here

We hope you enjoy this belated 100th anniversary gift!

:cheers:

LG and YB

Well I know what I'm listening to this morning!!!! Great job ahead of time!

[BearQueen87]

While my view is not a completely original thought--my personal suspicion is that Jon finds out while in a "coma" after the attack at the end of DwD. Although I think he wargs into Ghost during this coma, I think he also has the repeat of his crypt vision, but being in a coma (and being in Ghost) he does not wake up in the middle of the vision as has happened in the past. I think during this vision he meets his mother (not his father--Rhaegar was not buried in the crypt) and learns her identity in the vision. No, I don't think Lyanna sings Jon a song, and I don't think it is a joyous reunion. Other than the identity of his mother--and presumably, at a minimum by implication, also the identity of his biological father, I am not sure how much other details he will learn--like the truth behind the "kidnapping" and whether R&L were married. Those detail may need to wait for Howland Reed to reveal (maybe). So it is possible that even after R+L=J is confirmed in book 6, perhaps confirmation of R+L=legit J might need to wait for book 7. That approach would seem consistent with the way that GRRM likes to reveal his mysteries.

That makes the most sense. One slow reveal at a time!

[UnmaskedLurker]

Interesting, and definitely possible that Jon has a dream while in Ghost. I also think that there's a likelihood of Bran having revealing weirwood visions, and that perhaps the two will work together. I agree completely that we're unlikely to get a reveal of the entire thing in one big chunk. I see it more as an escalation of hints and evidences that we the readers will need to add up to arrive at the conclusion.

The only thing that I am aware of that is relevant that might have happened in front of a weirwood would be the wedding between R&L (which I think was probably done both in front of a weirwood in North style and using the services of a "traveling septon" in Faith style). So Bran might be able to confirm the marriage, but as I noted, I don't think news of the marriage comes out until DoS, so I don't think Jon will be relevant to the R+L=J reveal in WoW (not sure Jon even finds Bran during WoW--well maybe while Jon is in Ghost, he finds Bran, but they cannot really have a conversation in that form). Maybe, separate from a meeting between Jon and Bran, Bran has some weird weirwood vision about a wedding ceremony but does not realize the identity of the people being married at that point--not sure.

As to the "escalation of hints" point, I think Jon himself will become aware of R+L=J at some point during WoW (I thought GRRM even confirmed that Jon would learn the identity of his mother during WoW), so the escalation to the readers at some point must culminate in Jon realizing the truth and at that point it is no longer clues to the readers, but a genuine reveal. GRRM has already given the readers plenty of clues to figure it out (just look at the past 105 versions of this thread -- or just the first post of this version if you prefer -- for the multitude of clues). Now it is time for the actual reveal and time for Jon to learn that his life has in large part been one big lie.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Hey Folks!

Thought you'd all like to know that E05 of Radio Westeros is available at last, and it's all about RLJ :)

Here's a breakdown of what we discuss in the extended episode:

• Summary of RLJ

Knight of the Laughing Tree

Blue Roses

Kidnapping Theory

Jon's Similarities with R + L, with Ygrain!

Tower of Joy analysis courtesy of Mtn Lion

For the First Time in Years -- Ned + Rhaegar

Music by Joel Murray

The meaning of 'A Song of Ice and Fire'

RLJ's relevance in ASoIaF

... plus our usual assortment of readings and extra touches, with an advert from Westeros courtesy of our own Alia!

Listen or download here

Subscribe here

We hope you enjoy this belated 100th anniversary gift!

:cheers:

LG and YB

Great job.

[RumHam]

which I think was probably done both in front of a weirwood in North style and using the services of a "traveling septon" in Faith style.

I find this idea to be strange. We don't get any other examples of people "covering all the bases" when they wed do we? Even the Warden of the North got married in a southern ceremony. Robb probably did too but I can't remember if that was confirmed in the books . So why do you think they would have married both ways? And if so why stop there, why not do a Valyrian ceremony or get married in the eyes of the Drowned God (Do they have their own wedding ceremony?)

[BearQueen87]

I find this idea to be strange. We don't get any other examples of people "covering all the bases" when they wed do we? Even the Warden of the North got married in a southern ceremony. Robb probably did too but I can't remember if that was confirmed in the books . So why do you think they would have married both ways? And if so why stop there, why not do a Valyrian ceremony or get married in the eyes of the Drowned God (Do they have their own wedding ceremony?)

Well look at the two people involved. Would Lyanna want to get married in just the Southron tradition? Or would she want to recognize her northern heritage? Rhaegar might not have cared one way or the other, but marrying in both ways is also that balancing idea: the northern "ice" traditions and given that Targs married in the southron way, the "fire" tradition. It's a unification of the elements in R and L that leads to J so why not demonstrate that in your wedding(s).

[Chebyshov]

Hey Folks!

Thought you'd all like to know that E05 of Radio Westeros is available at last, and it's all about RLJ :)

Here's a breakdown of what we discuss in the extended episode:

• Summary of RLJ

Knight of the Laughing Tree

Blue Roses

Kidnapping Theory

Jon's Similarities with R + L, with Ygrain!

Tower of Joy analysis courtesy of Mtn Lion

For the First Time in Years -- Ned + Rhaegar

Music by Joel Murray

The meaning of 'A Song of Ice and Fire'

RLJ's relevance in ASoIaF

... plus our usual assortment of readings and extra touches, with an advert from Westeros courtesy of our own Alia!

Listen or download here

Subscribe here

We hope you enjoy this belated 100th anniversary gift!

:cheers:

LG and YB

Huzzah! Just when I was worried I wouldn't have something for my run today :)

[RumHam]

Well look at the two people involved. Would Lyanna want to get married in just the Southron tradition? Or would she want to recognize her northern heritage? Rhaegar might not have cared one way or the other, but marrying in both ways is also that balancing idea: the northern "ice" traditions and given that Targs married in the southron way, the "fire" tradition. It's a unification of the elements in R and L that leads to J so why not demonstrate that in your wedding(s).

Would Lyanna want to honor her northern heritage anymore than Ned or Robb? I don't really buy the fire argument, in what sense does the Faith represent fire? If it was a Valyrian ceremony or a Lord of Light ceremony then that might make sense. Though I still think a second wedding would be unnecessary and unusual.

Edit: for the record I think if they were married it probably was the Old Gods way. Don't have to involve a septon and the whole polygamy issue that way.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I find this idea to be strange. We don't get any other examples of people "covering all the bases" when they wed do we? Even the Warden of the North got married in a southern ceremony. Robb probably did too but I can't remember if that was confirmed in the books . So why do you think they would have married both ways? And if so why stop there, why not do a Valyrian ceremony or get married in the eyes of the Drowned God (Do they have their own wedding ceremony?)

BQ87 gives some of the reasons the marriage might have been done "both ways," but I think there is another important reason. R&L knew they were doing something that was likely to be quite controversial. Polygamy had not been actively practiced in Westeros for hundreds of years (more recent Wilding polygamous marriages arguably have taken place outside of Westeros--although apparently accepted as marriages within Westeros). If one is engaging in a marriage, the legitimacy of which might be questioned, one might want to build up the strongest case that a valid marriage in fact occurred. So having a ceremony that included both methods would serve the purpose of honoring both of their traditions and religions (as BQ87 notes), but also maximizes their position that their marriage is a genuine marriage under Westeros "law" (to the extent there can be said to be "law" in Westeros).

[RumHam]

BQ87 gives some of the reasons the marriage might have been done "both ways," but I think there is another important reason. R&L knew they were doing something that was likely to be quite controversial. Polygamy had not been actively practiced in Westeros for hundreds of years (more recent Wilding polygamous marriages arguably have taken place outside of Westeros--although apparently accepted as marriages within Westeros). If one is engaging in a marriage, the legitimacy of which might be questioned, one might want to build up the strongest case that a valid marriage in fact occurred. So having a ceremony that included both methods would serve the purpose of honoring both of their traditions and religions (as BQ87 notes), but also maximizes their position that their marriage is a genuine marriage under Westeros "law" (to the extent there can be said to be "law" in Westeros).

Doesn't it also possibly undermine the validity of their marriages? Like they knew it was wrong and that's why they took the unusual step of marrying under both faiths. But I understand your line of thinking now, thanks for explaining.

I hope we learn more about Valyrian weddings (We know polygamy is no problem there.) Does the ceremony have to be officiated by a parent? Was Visenya some kinda Valyrian priestess? or can just about anyone officiate a Valyrian wedding?

[BearQueen87]

Awwww, Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy gave us a shout out!!

Also, YAY FOR YGRAIN AND MTNLION!!!!

Really great job Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy. This one might be my favorite so far.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Doesn't it also possibly undermine the validity of their marriages? Like they knew it was wrong and that's why they took the unusual step of marrying under both faiths. But I understand your line of thinking now, thanks for explaining.

I hope we learn more about Valyrian weddings (We know polygamy is no problem there.) Does the ceremony have to be officiated by a parent? Was Visenya some kinda Valyrian priestess? or can just about anyone officiate a Valyrian wedding?

I don't think R&L could "hide" the fact that their marriage was performed under unusual circumstances. They could not just say--"Oh, why would anyone question our marriage? Of course polygamy is just fine and dandy. Who would ever think otherwise?" They would look silly trying to make that argument. There is the "plausible deniability" of stating that the two methods were done to honor both traditions and religions, but if challenged by Lyanna's family, the Northern ceremony would be cited for its legitimacy, and with respect to the rest of Westeros, the evidence of the septon-performed marriage would be presented (with the evidence of the Northern ceremony as "back-up" in case the power of the septon was questioned). Why not try to cover all bases?

Of course, I think the most important aspect of getting the marriage accepted as a legitimate marriage was bringing back baby-J. I think one of the main reasons that R&L remained in hiding was that they believed that coming back to KL with a baby was the best way to ensure that Aerys would not try to challenge the legitimacy of the marriage. Otherwise, I have never understood any other reason to remain in hiding so long.

[RumHam]

Of course, I think the most important aspect of getting the marriage accepted as a legitimate marriage was bringing back baby-J. I think one of the main reasons that R&L remained in hiding was that they believed that coming back to KL with a baby was the best way to ensure that Aerys would not try to challenge the legitimacy of the marriage. Otherwise, I have never understood any other reason to remain in hiding so long.

I'm not totally convinced the baby would add any legitimacy to the marriage or sway Aerys to accept it. It's not like it's unheard of for princes to have bastard children. The existence of Jon might make Aerys more angry. It's one thing to marry in secret, it's another to father a child in secret. Especially considering Rheagar could have been useful elsewhere during the rebellion, but instead married and had a child with the sister of one of Aerys' principle enemies. I don't see Aerys as the doting grandfather, he's not the type to melt at the sight of a new grandchild.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm not totally convinced the baby would add any legitimacy to the marriage or sway Aerys to accept it. It's not like it's unheard of for princes to have bastard children. The existence of Jon might make Aerys more angry. It's one thing to marry in secret, it's another to father a child in secret. Especially considering Rheagar could have been useful elsewhere during the rebellion, but instead married and had a child with the sister of one of Aerys' principle enemies. I don't see Aerys as the doting grandfather, he's not the type to melt at the sight of a new grandchild.

OK, so what is your theory on why they went into hiding for so long and what was going to bring them out? They were not planning on living at ToJ forever, were they?

[RumHam]

OK, so what is your theory on why they went into hiding for so long and what was going to bring them out? They were not planning on living at ToJ forever, were they?

I haven't put as much thought into it as you might think. Surely they weren't going to live there forever, I would think it was just a place for her to give birth. I tend to think Rhaegar was more focused on the coming battle with the Others, the "Song of Ice and Fire" than the rebellion. If you're a beloved Targaryen prince who grew up thinking you (and later your son) were the promised savior of the world, you probably wouldn't conceive of failure. Maybe he didn't think the rebels had any chance of killing him and stopping the prophecy. He probably realized Lyanna had to be the mother of the "third head." Where you and I differ is that I don't see why he would have to have married her. Her birthing this child became his priority, at the expense of the realm. He probably had no idea how bad it would get.

I think Rhaegar did intend to remove his father from power, his comments to Jaime seem to indicate as much and that he had just gotten sidetracked since Harrenhal. So then he wouldn't have to explain anything to Aerys. Just to the rebels, Dorne, and the Faith I guess.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Awwww, Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy gave us a shout out!!

Also, YAY FOR YGRAIN AND MTNLION!!!!

Really great job Lady Gwyn and Yolkboy. This one might be my favorite so far.

Aww thanks! :D

(maybe no surprise it's mine too? :lol: )

[UnmaskedLurker]

I haven't put as much thought into it as you might think. Surely they weren't going to live there forever, I would think it was just a place for her to give birth. I tend to think Rhaegar was more focused on the coming battle with the Others, the "Song of Ice and Fire" than the rebellion. If you're a beloved Targaryen prince who grew up thinking you (and later your son) were the promised savior of the world, you probably wouldn't conceive of failure. Maybe he didn't think the rebels had any chance of killing him and stopping the prophecy. He probably realized Lyanna had to be the mother of the "third head." Where you and I differ is that I don't see why he would have to have married her. Her birthing this child became his priority, at the expense of the realm. He probably had no idea how bad it would get.

I think Rhaegar did intend to remove his father from power, his comments to Jaime seem to indicate as much and that he had just gotten sidetracked since Harrenhal. So then he wouldn't have to explain anything to Aerys. Just to the rebels, Dorne, and the Faith I guess.

ToJ is not really the first place most people would choose to have a baby unless the person is hiding for a reason. What is that reason? Why would they hide to have the baby unles the baby had something to do with why they are hiding at all. Given that they cannot expect to hide forever, they have to have a plan for revealing themselves.

The question people should be asking more--and I really don't think I have ever seen a clear answer to this question (although I told you my theory), is why did R&L go into hiding? Who were they hiding from? What were they waiting for to reveal themselves, given that they could not expect to hide forever? Consider that they went into hiding before the war started, so the war is not the initial cause of their hiding. Of course Lyanna is trying to get out her engagement, but how is hiding for a year necessary--once she gets pregnant, it is unlikely Robert would consider marrying her in any event. What was their plan? What were they waiting for to come back?

I admit that the explanation could be something none of us could think of that GRRM will reveal eventually. But what makes most sense to me is that they are in hiding because they know their marriage will cause a lot of problems--with Robert, Lyanna's father and Rhaegar's father. Rhaegar needs the third head--we all agree, I think, that Rhaegar wants a child with Lyanna, at least in part, to have what he believes will be the third head (together with Aegon and Rhaenys as the other two). So why not come out of hiding as soon as Lyanna gets pregnant? No, I think Rhaegar believes that he needs to have the baby in hand. Not because his father is sentimental and will coo over the baby, but because Rhaegar knows how to manipulate his father. Once the marriage is performed and a baby is born, it makes it more difficult for Aerys to annul the marriage. Rhaegar needs to raise the three heads together, as a team, in KL. This goal is more easily accomplished if everyone accepts that Lyanna is Rhaegar's wife.

As to the Aerys overthrow theory--Rhaegar could not remove his father immediately. Rhaegar had to gather sufficient support first. So at some level he did have to be concerned about Aerys. Even if Rhaegar told Jaime that things would change when Rhaegar got back from battle, that is not the same as meaning that Rhaegar would immediately unseat his father.