What Tyrion Doesn't Understand About Tywin

[John Suburbs]

Tyrion's hostility toward Tywin is rooted in the fact that Tywin is a cold, brutal dictator who manipulates people and things to suit his own ends. He sees his father is sitting back, pulling all the strings, and directing other people's lives to suit his own ends. He serves a lot of crap sandwiches to those around him, but no one can bully him.

What he doesn't understand is that it wasn't always this way for Tywin. As a boy, he had to stand mute while his father allowed lesser lords to grow high and mighty, and then elevate a common prostitute to de facto Lady of the Rock.

As Hand to King Aerys, he had to endure a wide range of erratic behaviors and was likely given all sorts of foolish, counterproductive and probably humiliating tasks to do. Then he had to listen to the comment about King's Rights at his own wedding (which was most likely arranged by Tytos) and possibly even the defilement of beloved wife at least once, if not twice. (Please don't turn this into a secret Targ thread. That is not my intent.) Finally, his eldest son was seduced into the KG with the expressed intent of leaving no one but Tyrion as Tywin's only male heir.

Only upon his ascendency as Lord of the Rock and his subsequent amalgamation of power following Robert's Rebellion and the WotFK did Tywin finally achieve a full measure of self determination.

Now, along comes Tyrion whining about his rights to the Rock and all the things he's "owed," even though he's done virtually nothing with his life except drink and whore and tweak the noses of the high and mighty. And even when he's made Hand, and then MoC and given a pretty young wife that would set him up as Lord of Winterfell for the next 15 years, he's still pissed at his father. I admit, the Tysha thing was beyond cruel, but even at 13 Tyrion must have known that a Lannister could not marry a nobody and that Tywin's retribution would be swift and severe for both of them.

For a smart guy, Tyrion is not playing the long game here. All he has to do is father a child on Sansa, set himself up as Lord of Winterfell until the child comes of age, and by then Tywin would be dead or near dead and Tyrion would be the undisputed heir to the Rock, since Jamie has no inclination to leave the Kingsguard. Tywin could always draw up papers to disinherit him, I suppose, but if he uses his talents for management to produce a thriving, productive Winterfell, and keep his cock out of the local brothel, that could be avoided.

So in short, Tyrion fails to recognize all the crap sandwiches that Tywin had to eat as a young man and fails to recognize all his desires could come true if he would only play ball with his father. Tragic.

[Dornish Vinegar]

There are plenty of things I can blame Tyrion for, but not playing ball with Tywin is not one of them.

[LaughingStormBaratheon]

In a way I feel like Tywin was even more unfair towards Tyrion because of his childhood. He saw his family constantly demeaned because of his weak willed joke of a father, and when he looked at Tyrion that's exactly who he saw. A joke that would be the end of his house. The saddest part is if Tywin had treated Tyrion like a proper heir Tyrion probably would have been one of the best rulers the Rock has had, and certainly no one would have messed with the Lannisters.

While Tyrion constantly making jokes and being a drunken little lecher didn't exactly earn him any points in the eyes of Tywin, Tywin should have stepped up and been the cold calculating pragmatist he always has been and trained his probable heir the best way he could have.

[Universal Sword Donor]

I feel like you took Kevan's speech to Tyrion and added "Tywin had his guards rape your wife, so you should play ball".

Not exactly compelling material, especially since Tywin was never going to let Tyrion have the rock, no matter how Tyrion interacted with him, in death or life.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

In a way I feel like Tywin was even more unfair towards Tyrion because of his childhood. He saw his family constantly demeaned because of his weak willed joke of a father, and when he looked at Tyrion that's exactly who he saw. A joke that would be the end of his house. The saddest part is if Tywin had treated Tyrion like a proper heir Tyrion probably would have been one of the best rulers the Rock has had, and certainly no one would have messed with the Lannisters.

While Tyrion constantly making jokes and being a drunken little lecher didn't exactly earn him any points in the eyes of Tywin, Tywin should have stepped up and been the cold calculating pragmatist he always has been and trained his probable heir the best way he could have.

Agree completely, and especially with the bolded.

Tyrion dropped out of competition. He was never going to match up to Jaime. He would never be as cute or as marketable as Cersei. His father expected nothing, so that's what he gave him. I suspect Tyrion actually did try to please Tywin in his childhood and got nothing but abuse in return. Could you blame him for giving up?

Have to say that despite his cultivated "drunken fool" persona when he was given the task of maintaining the sewers of Casterly Rock, he did the best job anyone's ever done. He stepped up, even though it was (quite literally) a shitty job. Tywin really should have payed attention to that. He also managed to keep Joffrey from getting all of King's Landing killed. I understand that Tywin wasn't the effusive type, but I also completely sympathize with Tyrion's feelings in that situation.

[James Arryn]

I doubt this would affect Tyrion much, and in fact his interest in history suggests he probably already know at least some of it.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I doubt this would affect Tyrion much, and in fact his interest in history suggests he probably already know at least some of it.

He did know. There is one chapter in Storm, when Tywin sent Joffrey to sleep without his supper. He tells Tyrion he was taught to look aside at his father's behaviour. (something like that, I have the book in Spanish right now).

Agree completely, and especially with the bolded.

Tyrion dropped out of competition. He was never going to match up to Jaime. He would never be as cute or as marketable as Cersei. His father expected nothing, so that's what he gave him. I suspect Tyrion actually did try to please Tywin in his childhood and got nothing but abuse in return. Could you blame him for giving up?

Have to say that despite his cultivated "drunken fool" persona when he was given the task of maintaining the sewers of Casterly Rock, he did the best job anyone's ever done. He stepped up, even though it was (quite literally) a shitty job. Tywin really should have payed attention to that. He also managed to keep Joffrey from getting all of King's Landing killed. I understand that Tywin wasn't the effusive type, but I also completely sympathize with Tyrion's feelings in that situation.

The chapters when he remembers his family in Dance are very sad. His uncles really liked him and looked like they tried to compensate the lack of love, and Genna called him Tywin's "real son". And we know Jaime loved him (he bought him presents). It's not like he was compleeeeetely neglected and he was completely miserable, but I suppose all of that changed after Tysha. The little he could have felt for his father died after that.

[Hodor's Dragon]

Tyrion's hostility toward Tywin is rooted in the fact that Tywin is a cold, brutal dictator who manipulates people and things to suit his own ends. He sees his father is sitting back, pulling all the strings, and directing other people's lives to suit his own ends. He serves a lot of crap sandwiches to those around him, but no one can bully him.

What he doesn't understand is that it wasn't always this way for Tywin. As a boy, he had to stand mute while his father allowed lesser lords to grow high and mighty, and then elevate a common prostitute to de facto Lady of the Rock.

As Hand to King Aerys, he had to endure a wide range of erratic behaviors and was likely given all sorts of foolish, counterproductive and probably humiliating tasks to do. Then he had to listen to the comment about King's Rights at his own wedding (which was most likely arranged by Tytos) and possibly even the defilement of beloved wife at least once, if not twice. (Please don't turn this into a secret Targ thread. That is not my intent.) Finally, his eldest son was seduced into the KG with the expressed intent of leaving no one but Tyrion as Tywin's only male heir.

Only upon his ascendency as Lord of the Rock and his subsequent amalgamation of power following Robert's Rebellion and the WotFK did Tywin finally achieve a full measure of self determination.

Now, along comes Tyrion whining about his rights to the Rock and all the things he's "owed," even though he's done virtually nothing with his life except drink and whore and tweak the noses of the high and mighty. -> snip

I think Tyrion did know those things. It was family knowledge, and if he didn't hear it from Tywin, I'm sure he heard it from Jaime, or from some household retainer. This was not only his grandfather, but the Lord of Casterly Rock. Lots of people knew about his lifestyle. Word gets around about stuff like that.

Also, you left out the in-between part about how 2 of his 3 immediate family members wanted him dead from his birth, with absolutely nothing he could do about it, and pretty much treated him that way from his infancy.

King Baelor imprisoned his own sisters, whose only crime was being beautiful. The first time Cersei heard that tale, she had gone to Tyrion's nursery and pinched the little monster till he cried.

A Feast For Crows, Ch. 28, Cersei.

[Winter's Knight]

I admit, the Tysha thing was beyond cruel, but even at 13 Tyrion must have known that a Lannister could not marry a nobody and that Tywin's retribution would be swift and severe for both of them.

Yes, let's blame Tyrion for not realising that his father would order the gang rape of his wife and then force him to follow. I mean,it's such an obvious method of discipline.

[Devaki Khanna]

Tyrion's hostility toward Tywin is rooted in the fact that Tywin is a cold, brutal dictator who manipulates people and things to suit his own ends. He sees his father is sitting back, pulling all the strings, and directing other people's lives to suit his own ends. He serves a lot of crap sandwiches to those around him, but no one can bully him.

What he doesn't understand is that it wasn't always this way for Tywin. As a boy, he had to stand mute while his father allowed lesser lords to grow high and mighty, and then elevate a common prostitute to de facto Lady of the Rock.

As Hand to King Aerys, he had to endure a wide range of erratic behaviors and was likely given all sorts of foolish, counterproductive and probably humiliating tasks to do. Then he had to listen to the comment about King's Rights at his own wedding (which was most likely arranged by Tytos) and possibly even the defilement of beloved wife at least once, if not twice. (Please don't turn this into a secret Targ thread. That is not my intent.) Finally, his eldest son was seduced into the KG with the expressed intent of leaving no one but Tyrion as Tywin's only male heir.

Only upon his ascendency as Lord of the Rock and his subsequent amalgamation of power following Robert's Rebellion and the WotFK did Tywin finally achieve a full measure of self determination.

Now, along comes Tyrion whining about his rights to the Rock and all the things he's "owed," even though he's done virtually nothing with his life except drink and whore and tweak the noses of the high and mighty. And even when he's made Hand, and then MoC and given a pretty young wife that would set him up as Lord of Winterfell for the next 15 years, he's still pissed at his father. I admit, the Tysha thing was beyond cruel, but even at 13 Tyrion must have known that a Lannister could not marry a nobody and that Tywin's retribution would be swift and severe for both of them.

For a smart guy, Tyrion is not playing the long game here. All he has to do is father a child on Sansa, set himself up as Lord of Winterfell until the child comes of age, and by then Tywin would be dead or near dead and Tyrion would be the undisputed heir to the Rock, since Jamie has no inclination to leave the Kingsguard. Tywin could always draw up papers to disinherit him, I suppose, but if he uses his talents for management to produce a thriving, productive Winterfell, and keep his cock out of the local brothel, that could be avoided.

So in short, Tyrion fails to recognize all the crap sandwiches that Tywin had to eat as a young man and fails to recognize all his desires could come true if he would only play ball with his father. Tragic.

Of course, Tywin had to endure much--his father's weakness; Aerys' jealousy; Joanna's death in childbirth... However, the reason why most fans take issue with him is his inability to be just and fair to all three of his children, and his arrogance.

This begins immediately after Joanna's death, when the Princess of Dorne offers him Oberyn and Elia for his two eldest offspring. If we expect Tyrion, at the age of thirteen, to understand that his father would take violent exception to his marriage to a peasant, shouldn't Tywin (who must have been a lot older) have understood that marrying Cersei to a Targaryen was not a feasible scheme? Even if Aerys was infatuated with Joanna and deep in debt to House Lannister, he would not 'stoop' to wed his heir to a girl without a drop of Targaryen blood in her veins. And as Hand of the King, he would have known how badly Rhaella was treated; even if Rhaegar was a kind and considerate person, he would be over-ruled by his father. Would it be wise to marry Cersei into that sort of family? He is so off his game that he talks of his plan to wed Cersei to the Crown Prince, to the Princess of Dorne, to explain why he refused to consider an alliance between her family and his. It's not surprising that he is outmaneuvered by the Princess, who gets Elia married to Rhaegar.

Then there is the issue of his ill-treatment of Tyrion, as a child and a young man. He blames him for Joanna's death, when most of his peers (the Tullys, the Starks, the Arryns...) appear to have lost wives, most likely in similar circumstances. Yes, he sees to it that Tyrion enjoys what is due to him as a Lannister... but does he try to discover, either by getting to know him better or by talking to his brothers, what it is that his son excels at? He could have sent Tyrion to Oldtown, to forge a chain--several men from the Westerlands appear to have done that. Tyrion could have forged alliances or spied for House Lannister. Instead of which, Tywin keeps him tied to his coat-tails, humiliates him by having his low-born wife raped and fails to reward him when he performs well above expectations. So it is no surprise that Tyrion refuses to forcibly consummate his marriage to Sansa, to please his father, and then, when he is falsely accused by that same father for killing Joffrey (with little or no proof) he kills Tywin after Jaime tells him that Tywin asked him to lie to Tyrion about Tysha's origins. Tywin transforms Tyrion, who would have loyally, faithfully and ably served House Lannister into his doom.

There is also the education (or lack thereof) imparted to Cersei. Did he teach her anything about economics or politics, other than encouraging her to distrust every other ruling house in Westeros? Or did he expect her to act as his puppet on the throne? How is it that he failed to realize that she and Jaime had an incestuous relationship? He would have had to keep a careful watch on her, if he wished her to make a suitable alliance. And yet, she was able to sneak out of the Red Keep, dressed as a servant girl, to keep an assignation with Jaime. And she was able, without her father's knowledge, to get Aerys to give Jaime a place in the Kingsguard.

[David Selig]

Poor young Tywin. He was only the heir of the richest family on the continent and the king was his buddy. Boy, he really had it tough.

[LordStoneheart]

Oh boohoo. Tywin had a father that people laughed at. That is no excuse or even a good explanation on being a complete cunt with no regard for anyone but his family and being a blood-thirsty warmonger. And how dare that woman date a man with money! and poor Tywin had to see it.

As far as I'm concerned, if Tywin can't stand seeing a woman who isn't a noble rising up from her station, that's his own goddamn issue for being an entitled, arrogant elitist.

Poor young Tywin. He was only the heir of the richest family on the continent and the king was his buddy. Boy, he really had it tough.

World's smallest violin for the world's pettiest man

[Mithras]

Tywin was a cruel sociopath and a hypocrite. However, the complication is that whatever Tywin thought of Tysha wrongly (an opportunist and ambitious lowborn girl who is interested in Tyrion only because of his surname and his gold) applies perfectly to Shae.

Assuming that Tywin was somehow convinced in the genuinety of Tysha's love for Tyrion, then what?

We have the example of Duncan Targaryen. Lannisters are as proud as the Targaryens. In that case, Tyrion had to say goodbye to his surname and his right to the CR. Sorry but this is Westeros and an "heir" to the CR cannot marry a person with no surname.

[ummester]

Tywin and Tyrion's relationship is was complicated, as father-son relationships often are.

[John Suburbs]

I guess the flip side of this is "What Tywin Doesn't Understand about Tyrion." Let me think on that a bit.

And I didn't mean this as an excuse for Tywin, because he is a total cunt, and not as smart as he thinks he is. It's that if people in the story would just think for a moment about what they really want, they would be better able to form the long-term strategies needed to achieve it.

[In A Coat of Gold]

Tyrion was/is a fool. He's smart and amiable, but a fool. The guy threatened his own nephew over a whore. He was given the keys to a kingdom and all he had to do was have sex with a ready made pretty girl....and he still couldn't do it. Tywin respected him more than he thought. Making him Hand when he easily could have sent Kevan(who is probably more qualified) is a clear showcase of that. He just makes too many bad decisions and lets his love of whores get the best of him.

[ummester]

Tyrion was/is a fool. He's smart and amiable, but a fool. The guy threatened his own nephew over a whore. He was given the keys to a kingdom and all he had to do was have sex with a ready made pretty girl....and he still couldn't do it. Tywin respected him more than he thought. Making him Hand when he easily could have sent Kevan(who is probably more qualified) is a clear showcase of that. He just makes too many bad decisions and lets his love of whores get the best of him.

Tyrion is just trying to find love and he keeps looking in all the wrong places - he admits to himself that the whores are never going to love him back but prefers that fake affection to the idea of forcing himself on Sansa.

If only there was a high born dwarf lady that Tyrion could settle down with.

[John Suburbs]

He should have taken Lollys. That would piss Tywin off.

[King of Vaes Tolorro]

He should have taken Lollys. That would piss Tywin off.

He should have taken Lollys. That would piss Tywin off.

No, he should have tried wooing Arianne, that would have caused hell!