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How canon is the show?


Lharys

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Obviously the books are canon and the inconsistencies between them and HBO's show are generally practical/technical. However, can some things from the show be considered canon?



What I mean by this is that some things that occur in the show further explain or are more explicit than things in the books. For example, in ASOIAF, Renly and Loras' homosexual relationship is totally implicit, with characters like Stannis, Jaime, etc making comments that allude to some type of romantic relationship. However, in the show, it is completely and utterly obvious that the two are in a romantic relationship because you see them in bed together, etc. Does this mean that the implicit relationship in the books can be confirmed via the show?



Another example is, if I remember correctly, that we never really find out who ordered Ser Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater. He strongly suspects Cersei, but, in the show, Cersei more or less confirms it was Joffrey. I believe she cites the stupidity of using a Kingsguard to do it as why she didn't do it, since only her and Joffrey can make an order to a member of the Kingsguard.



So, can we say that these types of instances can be confirmed by the show? Or do the books preempt everything and anything the show may more explicitly portray?


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The show is show canon. The book is book canon. They're two different things. There is no single 'canon'.

This.

They are two different 'realities', and should be treated as such. Martin himself has said that he considers the show exists in an alternate dimension.

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I dunno about that. The show has cut a lot and will cut even more but D and D have said that they are going to go with the ending to the series that GrrM has relayed to them. On top of this HBO has said that they will release the last few seasons whether or not their corresponding books are published yet. This means that we'll know the bare bones of how the books end years before ADOS comes out. There will be a lot of differences for sure but at its roughest, the endgame will be delivered on screen before it is ever on print.



In short the canon of the journey will be as different as it needs to be, but the destination will be very close to being the real McCoy.


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it depends what you define canon as. To show watchers Brienne killed the Hound but to book watchers it was an infection that killed him. When the show passes out the books next season it will become the canon for now until the book is released but at that stage most people who finished up watching the show aren't going to ever know how it was someone else who took the throne in TWOW or how someone had a brother who sailed halfway around the world with a hellhorn to bring an army back.


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If you are referring to Loras and Renly then yes they are gay in the books the show just confirms that. However there will be differences between the show and the books, and therefore shouldn't take everything as meaning that the this will happen just because it happens s in the show. But certain things will be like babies being turned into WW, is hinted at in the books as well,however just because a certain character doesn't appear in the show doesn't mean they wont appear again in the books. Plus in the show there are a lot of inconsistencies between seasons, as well as military numbers and so forth. So just treat them as 2 different things, that will end roughly the same way, but the journey will be different


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It is best to view show cannon as a separate entity from book cannon. One small example is the Lannister gold / economic disaster. In the books, Cersei's economic mismanagement and stubbornness throws the Westerosi economy into disaster and alienates the Iron Bank, causing them to reach out to Stannis. In the show, the Lannister gold mine is no longer productive, and Littlefinger, Olenna, Varys, and the Iron Bank probably all suspect as much, providing additional motivation for their actions against the Lannisters (or in Olenna's case, to pay for things and try to work out a solution to the crisis with Tywin). If you look at each little piece of the show against the book cannon, it doesn't hold together all that well, but if you embrace the show as its own distinct cannon, a lot of the little things do hold together into a consistent story that is just different from the book story.



However, anybody that experiences both will interpret the show at least partly through the lens of the books and the books at least partly through the lens of show.


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  • 2 weeks later...

To quote GRRM: "The show is the show, and the books are the books."


Like everyone says, two separate canons. Characterisations are completely different (Cersei actually has redeeming qualities in the show, for example), and so are storylines: George said himself that essentially two separate Robb Starks marry two separate women: one marries Talisa from Volantis who is killed at the RW, a different Robb marries Jeyne Westerling who hasn't been confirmed dead

and appears in TWOW prologue...where she will probably die.

(did i do that right?)



However, with things like Loras/Renly and Theon's...body parts, perhaps even Joffrey's murder, we can assume that these are true as they are so heavily hinted at within the books and the show just clarifies to give watchers closure...a liberty that George does not feel inclined to take for his poor readers. :bang:


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