Dany's orders in Astapor (Not a hate thread)

[Game Of Thrones]

Dany’s orders to the Unsullied in the Sack of Astapor

"Unsullied!" Dany galloped before them, her silver-gold braid flying behind her, her bell chiming with every stride. "Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see." She raised the harpy's fingers in the air ... and then she flung the scourge aside. "Freedom!" she sang out. "Dracarys! Dracarys!"

To paraphrase

1. Kill the Good Masters, but not children under twelve

2. Kill the soldiers, but not children under twelve

3. Kill every man wearing a tokar, but not children under twelve

4. Kill every man holding a whip, but not children under twelve

5. Strike the chains off every slave you see

So Dany ordered the deaths of the Good Masters (presumably all over 12), the soldiers (all over 12), every man wearing a tokar or holding a whip(a man is a male person over 15 in Westeros, presumably similar in Essos), and the freeing of all slaves.

So Dany did not order 13-year-olds to be killed, only men.

However, “men” would have been defined differently by each Unsullied. A particularly vengeful Unsullied might have killed 12-year-olds and younger, while many other Unsullied would have killed only people who look like adults. So although at least dozens of Astapori boys under 15 almost certainly died (one or two boys as young as 10 might have been killed by a particularly vengeful Unsullied), it is incorrect to claim that Dany ordered children to be killed.

The one question I do have: Why 12, and not 16? Maybe Dany saw some 15-year-olds among the Good Masters? (maybe their parents were teaching them how to slave, or maybe they were actually older but looked young)

[Game Of Thrones]

Also, Cleon's Unsullied wouldn't have been effective at all if they were 11-year-olds.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany made these orders in the heat of the moment. The only reason they're so specific is for the benefit of the readers.

Basically, she's telling the Unsullied to kill the Good Masters, the soldiers, and any slave-owning man they see. But then she specifically calls for them to ensure that children under 12 are not harmed. She isn't saying "kill everyone above 12" - she's telling them to kill adults but specifying that they do not allow any children under 12 to be harmed (whether because they're wearing tokars, trying to resist, or just as collateral damage).

[Game Of Thrones]

Dany made these orders in the heat of the moment. The only reason they're so specific is for the benefit of the readers.

Basically, she's telling the Unsullied to kill the Good Masters, the soldiers, and any slave-owning man they see. But then she specifically calls for them to ensure that children under 12 are not harmed. She isn't saying "kill everyone above 12" - she's telling them to kill adults but specifying that they do not allow any children under 12 to be harmed (whether because they're wearing tokars, trying to resist, or just as collateral damage).

:agree:

[Mikkel]

I'm sorry, I really can't see it. The only reason to include the clause about no below-12 is because 12-and-up is fair game. There's no other reason to stipulate this, and it stands in stark contrast to the normal age of adulthood. Interestingly, 12 is quite a bit younger than Dany herself was when she stopped using slaves (she had little power, true, but the same can be said for any child between 12 and adulthood targeted by Dany).

Whether Dany was aware of exactly what she was ordering or its consequences can perhaps be discussed, but obviously she realized that her orders were broad enough to potentially include small children, or she wouldn't have felt the need to specify only-12-and-up.

If she meant to target only the men, then she should have said that: Harm no child. There'd be no need to specify 12-year-olds qualified as men, and those that were hard to judge should have gotten the benefit of the doubt. IF it had been about justice at all, of course, which IMO it wasn't. It was a political move to eradicate anyone who could potentially oppose her, and never mind that this included children.

I'm not sure what the argument that it's only for the benefit of the readers is supposed to prove, as far as the text is concerned, she said those things, and she did order those 12+ year old kids killed, if they fit into any of the criteria (most likely the tokar-wearing one). You may argue that she "wouldn't have" ordered those things, but if so that's because your head-canon-Dany is different from the actually-in-the-book-Dany.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Mikket, I do not think anyone can look at someone and say yup he's 13, or nope he's 11. So it seems really unlikely that Danaerys actually intended everyone over 12 to get it. I'm 24, when I'm shaved and wearing shorts and t shirt I can look 16, when I have a beard and am dressed for work I can look 30.

[Mikkel]

Mikket, I do not think anyone can look at someone and say yup he's 13, or nope he's 11. So it seems really unlikely that Danaerys actually intended everyone over 12 to get it. I'm 24, when I'm shaved and wearing shorts and t shirt I can look 16, when I have a beard and am dressed for work I can look 30.

True, there will necessarily be some inaccuracies either way, which is partly why the order to include those that are definitely not adults (ie 12-year-olds) is extra troubling - she's basically saying "kill the men, and the older-looking boys", whereas "harm no child" would have made sure only the men were killed. That would still be a somewhat controversial and very bloodthirsty order to give, but much less than it actually is.

Exactly what she orders is clear, what she intended is only unclear if we assume she didn't intend her orders to be carried out as given - but we're talking soldiers that are famous for their strict adherence to orders here, so that seems unlikely.

[SeanF]

Well, she didn't specifically order every male over 11 to be killed. She ordered them to take care *not* to kill males under 12. So, we can assume the Unsullied had considerable discretion as to who they killed above the age of 11.

We can fairly assume that at least *some* 12, 13, 14 year olds were killed by the Unsullied. But, obviously some survived to be enslaved by Cleon. Their fathers and older brothers presumably didn't survive.

[Winter's Knight]

Harm no child under twelve!=kill everyone over twelve.

[Mikkel]

Well, she didn't specifically order every male over 11 to be killed. She ordered them to take care *not* to kill males under 12. So, we can assume the Unsullied had considerable discretion as to who they killed above the age of 11.

We can fairly assume that at least *some* 12, 13, 14 year olds were killed by the Unsullied. But, obviously some survived to be enslaved by Cleon. Their fathers and older brothers presumably didn't survive.

Harm no child under twelve!=kill everyone over twelve.

Dany sets up a number of criteria - be a Good Master, be a soldier, hold a whip or wear a tokar. Assuming one or more of those criteria are met, and assuming the person in question is deemed to be 12 or older, Dany's orders are to kill that person. So no, it's not every male over 11, it's every male over 11 that also meets one of the other criteria.

Which, indeed, means that some children will have been killed, but not all of them. Setting the bar that low (12+), however, means she'd rather kill some children, than risk some young-looking adults go free.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dany sets up a number of criteria - be a Good Master, be a soldier, hold a whip or wear a tokar. Assuming one or more of those criteria are met, and assuming the person in question is deemed to be 12 or older, Dany's orders are to kill that person. So no, it's not every male over 11, it's every male over 11 that also meets one of the other criteria.

Which, indeed, means that some children will have been killed, but not all of them. Setting the bar that low (12+), however, means she'd rather kill some children, than risk some young-looking adults go free.

Yes some teenage slavers, wearing tokars, died that day.

This is all confirmed in the App. She ordered the unsullied to kill soldiers and tokar wearing slavers older than 12. So some teenagers probably died, teenagers who stood by while the Unsullied were made and trained.... no one we will miss. No one worth discussing so much, that is for sure.

[Mikkel]

Yes some teenage slavers children, wearing tokars, died that day.

This is all confirmed in the App. She ordered the unsullied to kill soldiers and tokar wearing slavers older than 12 children. So some teenagers children probably died, teenagers children who stood by while the Unsullied were made and trained.... no one we will miss. No one worth discussing so much, that is for sure.

See, teenagers are from thirteen and up - Dany specifically goes lower than this. So I took the liberty of fixing your post to reflect that fact. As for holding children from the age of 12 and up responsible for the actions of their society, to the point of warranting the death penalty without bothering to assess the culpability or specific crimes of these children... Yeah, I'll let that stand on its own. Rolling every single victim of Dany's Righteous Crusade™ into the "meh, they're slavers" stockpile is convenient, of course.

If owning slaves or benefiting from the work of slaves was a crime warranting death from the age of 12, Dany ought to start with herself. If consistency was a thing, that is.

[TheZone]

I think this goes back to her Dany was 13 when she was married to Drogo, thats when she lost her childhood. Therefor thats the mark of childhood for her.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

See, teenagers are from thirteen and up - Dany specifically goes lower than this. So I took the liberty of fixing your post to reflect that fact. As for holding children from the age of 12 and up responsible for the actions of their society, to the point of warranting the death penalty without bothering to assess the culpability or specific crimes of these children... Yeah, I'll let that stand on its own. Rolling every single victim of Dany's Righteous Crusade™ into the "meh, they're slavers" stockpile is convenient, of course.

If owning slaves or benefiting from the work of slaves was a crime warranting death from the age of 12, Dany ought to start with herself. If consistency was a thing, that is.

Just like the death penalty this cities inhabitants have been giving hundreds of thousands of babies and puppies while raising and training the Unsullied over the past however many centuries(just for the current group of Unsullied there were 40,000 dead babies and like 20,000 dead puppies). You can chalk this up to whatever you want, but this entire city thrived on the biggest evils on the planet, and if she had to kill a few teenagers to stop it then I say it was worth it. I dont call 12 year olds or 13 year olds 'children' I call them teenagers, so there is no reason to change my post. It's ok if we have differing opinions on the wording, most posters who dislike Dany continually use the word children, acting like her killing a few of them in Astapor is the worse thing that has ever happened, but then they turn around and give the Masters of Meereen a pass for killing 163 actual children, (all much younger than 12), as well as all the babies the Slavers of Astapor have had killed. So you should try some consistency as well if the death of young humans is really what bothers you so much.

And your last sentence is clearly wrong. Dany never raised or trained Unsullied and you know it.

[Pod The Impaler]

Dany’s orders to the Unsullied in the Sack of Astapor

To paraphrase

1. Kill the Good Masters, but not children under twelve

2. Kill the soldiers, but not children under twelve

3. Kill every man wearing a tokar, but not children under twelve

4. Kill every man holding a whip, but not children under twelve

5. Strike the chains off every slave you see

So Dany ordered the deaths of the Good Masters (presumably all over 12), the soldiers (all over 12), every man wearing a tokar or holding a whip(a man is a male person over 15 in Westeros, presumably similar in Essos), and the freeing of all slaves.

So Dany did not order 13-year-olds to be killed, only men.

However, “men” would have been defined differently by each Unsullied. A particularly vengeful Unsullied might have killed 12-year-olds and younger, while many other Unsullied would have killed only people who look like adults. So although at least dozens of Astapori boys under 15 almost certainly died (one or two boys as young as 10 might have been killed by a particularly vengeful Unsullied), it is incorrect to claim that Dany ordered children to be killed.

The one question I do have: Why 12, and not 16? Maybe Dany saw some 15-year-olds among the Good Masters? (maybe their parents were teaching them how to slave, or maybe they were actually older but looked young)

In part this is the society they live in - if you are old enough to breed, you are an adult (there is no "teenager" concept at all) and considered fair-game on the battlefield.

(One wonders at what age did the slaver cities consider their slaves no longer child slaves but adult slaves fit for adult work. 12-13 is probably about right.)

In part, it is also personal perspective: Dany is looking at this from her own perspective, the ability to know right from wrong, to understand the suffering of the slaves and empathize with it or not.

One other thing to mention about the overthrow of Astapor:

Dany also had to act very swiftly to accomplish what she did - a decapitating strike against the city's elite, dependent on the shock of the first engagement. In that context, her orders were quite cunning - the Unsullied doing all that accomplished the rapid seizure of the city and destruction of anyone who could have given orders to their slaves to counterattack. And it is quite possible that if a 14 year old can lead the attack, one of similar age could stage a counterattack. Not all the Unsullied or slave soldiers in the city were the ones she just bought.

"Wearing a tokar" or "holding a whip" is just the battlefield identifier for those who are masters or slave overseers - the command and control functions of the enemy come from them. The Unsullied take their orders literally nd carry them out methodically, but overly complicated orders usually fail. As such, Dany's order translated was: "If master or overseer or enemy combatant and age > 12, then kill. If slave, then free. Continue until battle is over or order is rescinded." Only the Unsullied would be the right ones to carry out an order so precise - regular soldiers would probably either go too far or not far enough.

As I see it, the objective was to decisively win the battle, not engage in some sort of extermination-based rulership.

[Mikkel]

And your last sentence is clearly wrong. Dany never raised or trained Unsullied and you know it.

Nor is it at all likely that the children were part of that, I can't remember if the training of Unsullied is specifically exclusive to the Good Masters or not (I remember it as such, but I'm not certain), but if you seriously want me to believe that 12-year olds were training Unsullied, then we're just going to have to agree to disagree, unless you come up with something better than "Dany killed them so I need them to be evil".

It doesn't really matter to me what you call 12-year olds, but the teen in teenager specifically refers to the -teen in thirteen (fourteen, fifteen... nineteen). So a 12-year old is by definition not a teenager, even if it suits you to change the meaning of words in an attempt to make Dany's call order for the murder of children sound less monstrous.

If you want to argue the murder of children was "worth it", fair enough - I don't agree, but at least that's admitting the nature of the Sack of Astapor, so we have a base to build discussions on. Specifically, IMO the Unsullied trade was over the moment Dany had the Good Masters killed, anything beyond the destruction of the adult slavers was a combination of blood-lust and political expediency that would have made Tywin Lannister proud.

For the record I've never seen anyone give the Masters of Meereen a free pass for the murder of children (except a few obvious trolls perhaps), all the criticism has been leveled at the method of determining guilt (or lack thereof), and how it's no better than the people Dany presumes to judge. But I like how you again managed to sneak in a snide comment about how the 12-year olds in Astapor weren't actual children :thumbsup:

[Mikkel]

In part, it is also personal perspective: Dany is looking at this from her own perspective, the ability to know right from wrong, to understand the suffering of the slaves and empathize with it or not.

I see this brought up a lot, but the thing people continually forget, or ignore, is that just like Dany in Illyrio's house or with the Khalasar was relatively powerless to do anything about the slave-owning, so will these children (young teens at best) be powerless to do anything about it in their society. And yet, if one warrants death, why doesn't the other?

[James Arryn]

Mikket, I do not think anyone can look at someone and say yup he's 13, or nope he's 11. So it seems really unlikely that Danaerys actually intended everyone over 12 to get it.

That can work both ways, though. Especially in something as chaotic as a sack. "Kill them all; God will recognize his own."

[John Suburbs]

She also said "Dracarys, Dracarys," which is the order for the dragons to start spewing fire, and they're not going to care if you are 2, 12 or 200.

[Prince Lou of House Reed]

I'm so tired o reading about people who have sympathy for these fucking slavers, kill them all I say. Hopefully you guys can one day have a master maybe they might even brand your face like mormont or feed you to lions like Tyrion. Or just nail you to a cross as a warning.