Heresy 135 The Hammer of the Waters

[Har!]

I think that you mean Innsmouth, not Arkham. <Stares without blinking>

well said sir!

[Har!]

From where do we reckon that those colossal pieces of black basalt came? Dorne?

Another Lovecraftian touch? If only they had been described as 'Cyclopian' and with the wrong sort of geometry...

The crustal portions of oceanic tectonic plates are composed predominantly of basalt, produced from upwelling mantle below, the ocean ridges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalt

Seems very Cthulhu, perhaps the basalt blocks were pushed up from the ocean floor when the convulsions that characterized the hammer of the waters hit....

all we need are decorative pictures of squishers on the blocks for a regular Love(craft)fest

[Black Crow]

I think that you mean Innsmouth, not Arkham. <Stares without blinking>

Of course I do, it was a long hard day... but you obviously understood my meaning... :blushing:

[Black Crow]

From where do we reckon that those colossal pieces of black basalt came? Dorne?

Once again I rather think it depends whether we're trying to interpret this picture in terms of ordinary human engineering, whether we need to be thinking laterally, or whether we're simply in the presence of a mystery which GRRM has no requirement to explain.

On the one hand for example the Wall has no right to exist as its an engineering impossibility, yet it does and is "explained" by the old magic spells bound within it. Storms End on the other hand sounds equally unlikely yet has an exact parallel in those massively-built Inca structures fitted together so precisely as to laugh off earthquakes - which I'd rather suspect is where GRRM got his idea.

Now as to Moat Cailin we've noted some of the problems and inconsistencies and harbour suspicions that it was originally a sacred rather than a profane site. Might we therefore ought to be looking at those very large pieces of black basalt not as bricks in a wall but fallen standing stones; a Westerosi Stonehenge. After all in mediaeval times all sorts of legends were attached to how the great sarsen stones were transported to the middle of Salisbury Plain.

[Black Crow]

So my input/question is this, Could whatever happened at Moat Caillin be a failed attempt to build/construct what we now know as The Wall. It failed because the "ice magic" wasn't as effective because it was too far south, resulting In a flooding, vice a frozen wall. If you look at a map, the southern point of the neck is very similar in width to the current location of The Wall. Maybe the Children chose this spot because of the width of the land mass, but it was too far south and the "ice" the Children brought down eventually melted.

On the same hand, maybe what is now known as the wall is just a frozen example of what happened at Moat Caillin, just is too far North so the water froze instead of flooded. So it could work either way. If this has been brought up before, I apologize. Thanks guys!

Welcome to Heresy, please do stick around and don't apologise for contributing to the discussion.

In short, all things are possible and its certainly possible to link the breaking of the Arm, the swamps in the Neck and the Wall as three successive barriers interposed by the children, although as discussed above I'm increasingly wary of treating the breaking of the Arm and the hammer of the waters as two separate events, ie; I'm rather of the opinion that the hammer was called down to break the Arm.

[and somehow reading it that way I can't get Armand Hammer and his Arm and Hammer toothpaste out of my head]

[Black Crow]

Another Lovecraftian touch? If only they had been described as 'Cyclopian' and with the wrong sort of geometry...

all we need are decorative pictures of squishers on the blocks for a regular Love(craft)fest

Those krakens have always seemed a bit dodgy...

[Free Northman Reborn]

12,000 years ago - The Children bring down the Hammer on the Arm of Dorne to stop the First Men.

6,000 years ago (on the traditional timeline) - The last remaining First Men Kingdom (The Kings of Winter) realize that the Andals are sweeping across the entire Westeros. They call on their Pact with the Children, who agree to bring a second Hammer down on the then much wider Neck, to try and separate it from the South. The result is narrow, flooded Neck that we see today, which still achieves the purpose of forming a choke point to repel the Andals for the next 5700 years.

The only question remaining is what happened to the Children living in the North? Why did they have to retreat North of the Wall, given that the First Men had a pact with them?

All I can think of is that the magic of the Hammer of the Waters exacted a massive toll on the Children, with the spell probably powered by blood sacrifices from their already dwindling population, and thus their "long twilight" began. By the time the current story takes place, they have simply dwindled away naturally, with birth rates not being sufficient to replace the natural deaths in their population.

[Melifeather]

12,000 years ago - The Children bring down the Hammer on the Arm of Dorne to stop the First Men.

6,000 years ago (on the traditional timeline) - The last remaining First Men Kingdom (The Kings of Winter) realize that the Andals are sweeping across the entire Westeros. They call on their Pact with the Children, who agree to bring a second Hammer down on the then much wider Neck, to try and separate it from the South. The result is narrow, flooded Neck that we see today, which still achieves the purpose of forming a choke point to repel the Andals for the next 5700 years.

The only question remaining is what happened to the Children living in the North? Why did they have to retreat North of the Wall, given that the First Men had a pact with them?

All I can think of is that the magic of the Hammer of the Waters exacted a massive toll on the Children, with the spell probably powered by blood sacrifices from their already dwindling population, and thus their "long twilight" began. By the time the current story takes place, they have simply dwindled away naturally, with birth rates not being sufficient to replace the natural deaths in their population.

I would like passages from the book that support the 6000 year bit for the Neck. The Wiki is often full of assumptions.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The 6000 year figure is based on the traditional dating - as per the timeline presented to us in Book 1 - of the arrival of the Andals.

Since then, we have had hints that this date is somewhat overstated, with a likely revised arrival date for the Andals being around 3000-4000 years ago instead.

If the Second Hammer was intended to stop the Andals from advancing into the North, then it can probably be dated to this period.

A second link is the dating of the founding of the Wolfsden. Given the timeline we are given by Ser Bartimus in Dance, - which can be cross referenced with that given to Davos by Lord Godric Borrell of Sisteron in the same book - we have a reasonable estimate for the age of the Wolfsden of no less than 3500-4000 years - although it can also be much older.

And the reason that this is important, is because we know that it was King Jon Stark who founded the Wolfsden, and it was his son who conquered the Marsh King and brought his lands into the Kingdom of the North. And for the Marsh King to exist, it means the Neck must have already been a marsh before that point. Hence the Second Hammer likely happened before then.

In fact, it is also possible that since this Hammer would likely have devastated the lands of the Neck, it is likely that the Starks would not have attempted this if the Neck was ruled by a new bannermen of theirs - whose daughter was now the Queen of the North. Hence, it is likely that the Hammer must have been summoned BEFORE the Neck joined the North.

Actually, scratch that idea, because if it is true that the Crannogmen grew close to the Children during the time that the Children brought down the Second Hammer, then it means that the Crannogmen likely supported the summoning of the Hammer.

This means that they were likely already part of the combined effort to stop the Andals, and therefore they may well already have been part of the North. Which implies that there were already marshes in the Neck even before the Hammer was brought down to flood it.

[Mithras]

I think the traditional timeline is correct. The LN happened 8 thousand years ago. In the last chapter of Dany in ADwD, she comes across a wall which she likenes to the Wall.

Dany stumbled onto a low stone wall, overgrown and broken. Perhaps it had been part of a temple, or the hall of the village lord. More ruins lay beyond it—an old well, and some circles in the grass that marked the sites where hovels had once stood. They had been built of mud and straw, she judged, but long years of wind and rain had worn them away to nothing. Dany found eight before the sun went down, but there might have been more farther out, hidden in the grass.

I think each circle represents a millenia.

BTW, it is interesting that this wall (which is specifically designed to represent the Wall) might have been a part of a temple or the hall of the village lord. This might be a reference to the Night's King and Nightfort, given that an old well is also mentioned.

[Frey family reunion]

I think the traditional timeline is correct. The LN happened 8 thousand years ago. In the last chapter of Dany in ADwD, she comes across a wall which she likenes to the Wall.

Dany stumbled onto a low stone wall, overgrown and broken. Perhaps it had been part of a temple, or the hall of the village lord. More ruins lay beyond it—an old well, and some circles in the grass that marked the sites where hovels had once stood. They had been built of mud and straw, she judged, but long years of wind and rain had worn them away to nothing. Dany found eight before the sun went down, but there might have been more farther out, hidden in the grass.

I think each circle represents a millenia.

BTW, it is interesting that this wall (which is specifically designed to represent the Wall) might have been a part of a temple or the hall of the village lord. This might be a reference to the Night's King and Nightfort, given that an old well is also mentioned.

I think that it's more likely that the eight circles represent the places of power in Westeros that are still marked by the castles that rose up around them but are no longer being used as originally purposed. I think some are obvious like Winterfell, Casterly Rock, and Storm's End. I also think that the Eyrie, Highgarden, and Hightower constitute three of the circles. I'm not sure about the other two but perhaps Nagga's Hall and the Spear Tower in Dorne.

I think the circles hidden in the grass may represent the places of power that have since gone into ruin like Oldstones, the Whispers and possibly Moat Cailin.

I think the low Stone Wall obviously represents the Wall. Like you said it is interesting that it is likened to a temple or Hall.

I think that the well may represent the God's eye.

Finally I think this passage may be based on a real life location in Northumberland County England. There is an old ruined Mithraic temple where Hadrian's Wall once passed. Also nearby once stood Conventina's Well which was a shrine to a British water goddess.

[Melifeather]

I hadn't remembered this passage, and it's very intriguing. I'm in the midst of a reread of Dance and I look forward to poring over this passage. The one thing that stands out, however is that all the circles are on one side of the Wall so it cannot be Moat Cailin.

Frey family reunion, would you be willing to post more info about the real life inspiration you know about?

[Free Northman Reborn]

What if Moat Cailin was where humanity made their stand against the Others?

The old tales say that kingdom after kingdom fell to the Others. Maybe these fallen kingdoms were the old petty kingdoms of the North, and mankind was forced to retreat South of Moat Cailin.

There they built their mighty fortress to hold the enemy at bay. And the dead lands that the Last Hero rode into was the North, which lay under sway of Winter.

Then, as the Others massed at Moat Cailin to finally overrun humanity's last defences, the Last Hero returned with the Children, who brought the Hammer of the Waters down on the Moat in a collective act of self sacrifice, killing the massed armies of the Others as well as all the defenders at the Moat.

The force of the Hammer was such that it also turned the entire Neck into a permanent swamp.

This blow stopped the Others advance and with the aid of the Children's magic, humanity was able to turn the tide and push the forces of Winter slowly back northwards until in the final climactic battle, humanity prevailed and Winter fell. And on that spot a castle was erected, forever to be known as Winterfell.

[Melifeather]

I think Black Crow is onto something by thinking that Moat Cailin was simply the place where the Children cast their magic spell that washed the Arm of Dorne away, so instead of it being two separate events, we're now looking at a single event. If we reread the text it only says it's the location where the Children called down their hammer of waters. No where does it then follow up with, "and then Moat Cailin was destroyed", or "and then the Neck became a marsh". I think the Neck was always a marshy place and Moat Cailin was built on the edge of it to defend the North where it "held off southron armies for 10,000 years". So, it's an old place, but a careful reread reveals that it's simply the place the Children were at when they cast their hammer that resulted in the Arm of Dorne washing away. I also like the description of Moat Cailing and God's Eye being in the center with the damage radiating outward in a ring, taking out not only the Arm of Dorne, but also hammering away at Pyke.

[Mithras]

BTW, there is more symbolism with that wall. There was an anthill at the other side of the wall. The ants climbed over the wall and bit Dany while she was sleeping during the night. This obviously represents the attack of the Others/wights to the Realm. It is not the first time a female body is likened to the Realm (remember the HotU vision with the dwarves that were savaging a woman).

[Melifeather]

BTW, there is more symbolism with that wall. There was an anthill at the other side of the wall. The ants climbed over the wall and bit Dany while she was sleeping during the night. This obviously represents the attack of the Others/wights to the Realm. It is not the first time a female body is likened to the Realm (remember the HotU vision with the dwarves that were savaging a woman).

Wow. Maybe we should do a Heresy thread off that scene?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Another Lovecraftian touch? If only they had been described as 'Cyclopian' and with the wrong sort of geometry...

Seems very Cthulhu, perhaps the basalt blocks were pushed up from the ocean floor when the convulsions that characterized the hammer of the waters hit....

all we need are decorative pictures of squishers on the blocks for a regular Love(craft)fest

I was thinking along the same lines with the basalt blocks. I don't have a link, but if you check out Giant's Causeway you can see a similarity. The stones that look carved but are natural. I think the Causeway may have been brought up before, probably so.

[Black Crow]

What if Moat Cailin was where humanity made their stand against the Others?

The old tales say that kingdom after kingdom fell to the Others. Maybe these fallen kingdoms were the old petty kingdoms of the North, and mankind was forced to retreat South of Moat Cailin.

There they built their mighty fortress to hold the enemy at bay. And the dead lands that the Last Hero rode into was the North, which lay under sway of Winter.

Then, as the Others massed at Moat Cailin to finally overrun humanity's last defences, the Last Hero returned with the Children, who brought the Hammer of the Waters down on the Moat in a collective act of self sacrifice, killing the massed armies of the Others as well as all the defenders at the Moat.

The force of the Hammer was such that it also turned the entire Neck into a permanent swamp.

This blow stopped the Others advance and with the aid of the Children's magic, humanity was able to turn the tide and push the forces of Winter slowly back northwards until in the final climactic battle, humanity prevailed and Winter fell. And on that spot a castle was erected, forever to be known as Winterfell.

Feather has summarised most of my current thinking on there being just the one hammer, called down by the children, with the aid of the Crannogmen - thus uniting earth and water to call upon the Storm God and Lady of the Waves to accomplish the breaking of the Arm.

At the time I'd identify the Moat Cailin site as a sacred one rather than a fortress and that it only became one after it was taken by the First Men, as represented by House Marsh. While I agree that the lost kingdoms - the dead lands - were those north of the Neck I don't see any evidence in text of an active defence and its worth noting that its emphasised how Moat Cailin has never been taken from the south.

The wiki is tolerably vague on dates but I'd be inclined to look for a connection between House Mudd and House Marsh and see the Starks defeating the Marsh King to secure Moat Cailin and the Neck in the wake of Tristifer Mudd's death, and that its defence against the Andals dates from that siezure rather than earlier.

[King Tyrion XX]

I would like passages from the book that support the 6000 year bit for the Neck. The Wiki is often full of assumptions.

And the app, yet many take them as gospel.

[Frey family reunion]

I hadn't remembered this passage, and it's very intriguing. I'm in the midst of a reread of Dance and I look forward to poring over this passage. The one thing that stands out, however is that all the circles are on one side of the Wall so it cannot be Moat Cailin.

Frey family reunion, would you be willing to post more info about the real life inspiration you know about?

All I can really give you is the wiki link about the ruins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrawburgh

Another poster brought it to my attention, I wish I knew more about it. I was hoping BC might have visited it since it is more around his neck of the woods. (well its at least much more in his neck of the woods then mine.) I would love to visit it one day though.