Tywin Planning To Kill Joffrey?

[Lion Of The Night]

Theories about the assassination of Joffery abound this site, although usually tied up in other threads. So a thread talking about Tywin and killing Joffery specifically should be interesting.

We can all agree that Joffery was unpredictable. For a time he was able to be controlled by his mother, Tyrion, and Tywin. But as time passed and he became more confident in his powers as king, he became more and more difficult to control. So much so that Tywin admitted that Joffrey needed a "sharp lesson". If left to his own devices, Joffrey would become a tyrant, and could have torn the empire to shreds, not to mention all that Tywin worked for. In time, even Tywin would have had to admit that Joffrey needed to be removed to save the kingdom from another Mad King.

Now I do not necessarily believe that Tywin was in on any plot to kill Joffrey at The Purple Wedding, if he was, I do not think he would have had Tyrion implicated, or at the least offered a scapegoat, for the very least reason of not having to drag his family name down in a trial.

However, is it likely that Tywin would have killed Joffery? How would he do so to maximize his returns to gain more, and prevent his name from tarnishment? Is there any clues, even crackpot ones that point to a plan he had in place?

[Lion of the West]

I don't think that Tywin would kill his own nephew. What he would do is simply to take the reins of the kingdom himself, just like happened with Aerys.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

I don't know if he necessarily had a plan in place but I think he knew one day something would have to be done with Joffery.

There isnt much if any textual evidence that Tywin would have killed Joff. I think he would have attempted to get him under control before killing him became an option.

That being said if Tywin had exhausted all other options and felt he was never going to be able to control him he would do the deed in a way that would never lead back to him. Most likely having someone else kill Joffrey and then killing that someone else.

[Queen.Sansa.Lannister]

If Tywin discovered there was absolutely no way Joffrey could be reigned in by him or anyone else, yes, I think Tywin would have had him killed, or even just removed, to the NW or maybe even CR.

[Poppa Chase]

I don't think that Tywin would kill his own nephew. What he would do is simply to take the reins of the kingdom himself, just like happened with Aerys.

Joffrry wouldn't allow that for long. He was 13 and standing up to his grandpa. He had to go. Too unpredictable. He would sever their alignment to the tyrells.

[Poppa Chase]

I don't know if he necessarily had a plan in place but I think he knew one day something would have to be done with Joffery.

There isnt much if any textual evidence that Tywin would have killed Joff. I think he would have attempted to get him under control before killing him became an option.

That being said if Tywin had exhausted all other options and felt he was never going to be able to control him he would do the deed in a way that would never lead back to him. Most likely having someone else kill Joffrey and then killing that someone else.

Sansa. He could kill her and not damage relations with tyrells. LF messed that up.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Sansa. He could kill her and not damage relations with tyrells. LF messed that up.

You could be very right :)

[Septa Mordane]

Tywin was more concerned with getting him away from his mother, hence his plan to send Cersei away to HG or CR. Maybe he thought he could control Joffrey better with his mother gone.

[Lord_Tyrell]

I don't think that Tywin would kill his own nephew. What he would do is simply to take the reins of the kingdom himself, just like happened with Aerys.

And look how that turned out. Joffrey would have inevitably had led to the entire destruction of House Lannister if he was allowed to live past his 16th birthday. I think if Joffrey was the same or worse on his 15th birthday, then Tywin would start formulating a plan to kill him. Tyrion wasn't doing anything to destroy the house, but Joffrey would have likely declared war on the North and the Riverlands again if he ever became 16. The Lannisters would have likely been destroyed before Joffrey got into his 20s. Tywin would have no choice but to kill him.

[Lion Of The Night]

Tywin was more concerned with getting him away from his mother, hence his plan to send Cersei away to HG or CR. Maybe he thought he could control Joffrey better with his mother gone.

This is an interesting thought. Cersei seemed to be a terrible influence on Joffrey, even if it was unintended on her part. I know Tywin had plans to marry Cersei off again and possibly send her to Casterly Rock, but she was highly resistent. Now I don't want to mix up showCersei and bookCersei so I won't comment on what exactly she did, but I am sure she had it in her to defy Tywin, even if it ment getting to Joffrey to kill or banish him first.

With Tyrion married to Sansa and the possibility of a Lanister heir there, if a child was conceived would killing Cersei be a first option that Tywin might consider?

[John Suburbs]

I think the more interesting question is, if Joffrey had lived, would Tywin have killed Joffrey, or would Joffrey have killed Tywin?

[PlainJeyne]

I think he would have tried to get him under control first, but I don't think he would have let him continue to live if it became apparent that he was going to ruin house Lannister.

He would have found some extremely discreet way to get rid of him.

It's maybe even likely that Tywin was glad about the purple wedding because it rid him of this problem without him even having to be involved at all. How convenient that Joffrey made so many people want to kill him!

[Lion Of The Night]

I think the more interesting question is, if Joffrey had lived, would Tywin have killed Joffrey, or would Joffrey have killed Tywin?

Tywin is not the kind of person to act rashly. Any plan to kill Joffrey would be meticulously planned out, both to make sure it worked and also to ensure his family was never implicated. We can also infer that any plan to assassinate Joffrey would include a way to implicate and destroy one of Tywins enemies.

Joffery on the other hand, is very impulsive. He already lashed out at Tywin at a small council mtg. It would only be a matter of time before he orders one of his men to kill Tywin, and for that person to be bold enough to carry it through.

Tywin would have known that, and if I were him would plan to have offed him sooner rather than later.

Perhaps a hunt gone badly, where the king runs into outlaws, and all are killed?

[Lion Of The Night]

Now an interesting question could be, what does house Tyrell have planned. Could they maneuver Joffery to kill Tywin to remove a Lanister control of the IT, and then kill Joffery once Marg was with child?

Frankly I believe any house with proximity to power in Kings Landing would have thought about killing Joffery before he went all Caligula on the nation.

[Lion Of The Night]

I think he would have tried to get him under control first, but I don't think he would have let him continue to live if it became apparent that he was going to ruin house Lannister.

He would have found some extremely discreet way to get rid of him.

It's maybe even likely that Tywin was glad about the purple wedding because it rid him of this problem without him even having to be involved at all. How convenient that Joffrey made so many people want to kill him!

Unless of course he did know something was planned, and did nothing to stop it.....

[In A Coat of Gold]

Tywin is the most powerful man in the kingdoms. He could easily just remove Joff from power once his heir had been borne on Margaery. Everyone knows where the power is.

[Tynned Lannistark]

Joffrry wouldn't allow that for long. He was 13 and standing up to his grandpa. He had to go. Too unpredictable. He would sever their alignment to the tyrells.

Joffrey could have been 30 for all that matters. Tywin would still hold the power as long as he lives.

There is no chance Joffrey would have been able to harm him in anyway and he could easily remove him from the throne if he wanted. He was the most powerful man in the seven kingdoms and would have remained that way if he wasn't stupid enough to start the war against the Starks.

But even after the war started, Joffrey may be king, but Tywin was the lord of Casterly Rock and it was Joffrey who was depending on the Lannister forces to rule, not the opposite.

Tywin problem would have been different. He was around 60. old in Westerosi terms and nearing the end of his life. When he died his heir , whoever it is , may not be able to restrain Joffrey and Joffrey's irrational behavior would put an end to everything Tywin worked to achieve. His legacy and the power of his family was the most important thing in the world for him and for that he would not hesitate to get rid of his own grandson, even kill him if needed.

However, Tywin was also completely blind about what was happening inside his own family. It is unlikely he understood just how screwed up Joff really is , so he probably did not plan anything drastic.

Tywin was more concerned with getting him away from his mother, hence his plan to send Cersei away to HG or CR. Maybe he thought he could control Joffrey better with his mother gone.

I suppose you are right and this is exactly what he had in mind in order to straighten Joffrey. I am not sure it would have worked , but pretty sure he thought it would solve his problem.

[Olenna'sCheese]

I don't think Tywin would have killed Joffrey. He would've known, however, that with someone like Joffrey, plenty people would want to kill him. He'd probably just let them get on with it while quietly preparing Tommen for the throne, unless he risked Joffrey living long enough for an heir. A newborn baby would give Tywin plenty time to set the kingdom right (after ridding himself of Cersei) and he could mold the child into the perfect ruler. He most likely wouldn't have tried it because it would set a half-Tyrell on the throne and Mace/Olenna would prove difficult.

I think, by the end, Tywin had mostly given up all hope of Joffrey.

[Poppa Chase]

Joffrey could have been 30 for all that matters. Tywin would still hold the power as long as he lives.

There is no chance Joffrey would have been able to harm him in anyway and he could easily remove him from the throne if he wanted. He was the most powerful man in the seven kingdoms and would have remained that way if he wasn't stupid enough to start the war against the Starks.

But even after the war started, Joffrey may be king, but Tywin was the lord of Casterly Rock and it was Joffrey who was depending on the Lannister forces to rule, not the opposite.

Tywin problem would have been different. He was around 60. old in Westerosi terms and nearing the end of his life. When he died his heir , whoever it is , may not be able to restrain Joffrey and Joffrey's irrational behavior would put an end to everything Tywin worked to achieve. His legacy and the power of his family was the most important thing in the world for him and for that he would not hesitate to get rid of his own grandson, even kill him if needed.

However, Tywin was also completely blind about what was happening inside his own family. It is unlikely he understood just how screwed up Joff really is , so he probably did not plan anything drastic.

I suppose you are right and this is exactly what he had in mind in order to straighten Joffrey. I am not sure it would have worked , but pretty sure he thought it would solve his problem.

Just like you said, Joffrey started the war with the Starks. So you don't think he can start another? Like one day he decides he wants to slap Margaery around because he has a small penis. And Ser Loras happens to be on duty. You now have a new Kingslayer and widow. He is far too unpredictable, even for Tywin.

[James Arryn]

I think he'd have gone there if he became convinced Joff was irredeemable/uncontrollable, but I think he would have given it a lot of time first. In the meanwhile Joff's age can be used as an acceptable restraint.

My question is, does Joff have Tywin killed before Tywin has Joff killed? I think it's a realistic possibility. Only flaw is that Tywin has an incredibly underrated spy network of his own. Ever noticed how much he seems to know without anyone ever mentioning his spies, unlike Cersei's, LF's, Varys', the Tyrells', etc.?