Gendry's knighthood

[Pecan]

We're told that any Knight can make a Knight but we're also told that the southern tradition of chivalry is tied to the worship of the seven and that squires have to stand vigil in a sept and maybe do some other religious stuff. So there's some ambiguity around the concept of Knighthood, which is interesting. I don't think it's at all clear under what circumstances northern Knights such as Rodrik or Ser Helman Tallhart earned their Knighthoods. It could simply be that they're religiously flexible, or it could be that they were raised worshipping the seven. Perhaps they come from a house that migrated north several generations ago. Or, it could be that someone that was already a Knight tapped them on the shoulder at some point. Regarding the specific case of Gendry and the BwB, we know this falls under the "any knight can make a knight" proviso. But, given that the BwB are followers of the Red God, I think what might be happening is that the tradition of knighthood in Westeros is being disrupted and may be in the early stages of being co-opted by the Red God religion. Barristan may also be contributing to this with his trainees in Meereen.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Jorah and his father worship the seven but Jeor's father worshiped the old Gods. I rather think the girls also worship the old gods

Nope. Jorah and his father do not worship the Seven. Not a single hint for that and a whole bunch against.

Didn't Jorah get knighted for valour at Pyke? There's little evidence he keeps the Seven, and I don't recall any at all suggesting that Jeor does.

Yes, he did. It's just an honorific tacked on.

We're told that any Knight can make a Knight but we're also told that the southern tradition of chivalry is tied to the worship of the seven and that squires have to stand vigil in a sept and maybe do some other religious stuff. So there's some ambiguity around the concept of Knighthood, which is interesting. I don't think it's at all clear under what circumstances northern Knights such as Rodrik or Ser Helman Tallhart earned their Knighthoods. It could simply be that they're religiously flexible, or it could be that they were raised worshipping the seven. Perhaps they come from a house that migrated north several generations ago. Or, it could be that someone that was already a Knight tapped them on the shoulder at some point. Regarding the specific case of Gendry and the BwB, we know this falls under the "any knight can make a knight" proviso. But, given that the BwB are followers of the Red God, I think what might be happening is that the tradition of knighthood in Westeros is being disrupted and may be in the early stages of being co-opted by the Red God religion. Barristan may also be contributing to this with his trainees in Meereen.

Your answer:

No contradiction. Only two ways to do things. Schwertleite und Ritterschlag, if you want to know the original (german) words.

The Schwertleite was the culmination of a 14-year-long education and a very expensive ceremony. The Ritterschlag five minutes on the battlefield.

The septon and the holy oils are needed for the Schwertleite, as well as an entire bunch of knights. Only one knight is needed for the Ritterschlag.

[Le Cygne]

Or did the BWB knight Gendry despite being a follower of Red God ?

He's not really a follower of the Red God. It's all just a matter of convenience for most of them, I think.

[Pecan]

Your answer:

No contradiction. Only two ways to do things. Schwertleite und Ritterschlag, if you want to know the original (german) words.

The Schwertleite was the culmination of a 14-year-long education and a very expensive ceremony. The Ritterschlag five minutes on the battlefield.

The septon and the holy oils are needed for the Schwertleite, as well as an entire bunch of knights. Only one knight is needed for the Ritterschlag.

I saw this when you originally posted it. I still think there's some ambiguity regarding the extent to which Knighthood in Westeros is a secular vs. a religious tradition. Within the bounds of Christendom, you never had that problem because everyone was Christian, or at least they were as far as I know.

[mediterraneo]

I saw this when you originally posted it. I still think there's some ambiguity regarding the extent to which Knighthood in Westeros is a secular vs. a religious tradition. Within the bounds of Christendom, you never had that problem because everyone was Christian, or at least they were as far as I know.

Well, we know that knights can create other knights.

We know that at least Jorah Mormont was proclamed knight on the battlefield, by the king.

We know that Dunk could fake his knighthood by saying that a dieing man "said some words he couldn't hear" or something like that.

We know that there is only one knightly title, "Ser", and only one knightly institution, that allows you better pay and better societal status, and in some case even the right to manage lands in the name of your Lord without being a Lord yourself.

We know that the title works the same for the "landed knights" as well as for "House's knights" that live in the castle of their Lord or in any case serve him permanently (Bienne's and Catelyn's reciprocal oaths) or opposed to the "hedge knights" who only pledge limited time allegiances to their employers.

I'm finding some memory difficulty to find some character talking about the sept cerimonies, but we know as a fact that the North and the Iron Islands have a much much lower rate of knights between their nobles. Knighthood is mainly an Andal originated thing.

But people worshipping other gods are not excluded from it. All of Stannis's knights became knights at the light of the Seven, and have R'hollor's symbols on their shield now. Jorah is a knight even if the Mormonts are an old First Men family. Roderick Cassel seems quite a northern traditionalist too, but he is a Ser too, and was chosen to teach arms use to the Stark heirs. It is an institution that percolates through the warrior groups, without any real seam.

We are possibly invokating an institutionality that did not exist in premodern, pre modern State societies.

There is no actual authority keeping a knight's register and pedigree.

Knighthood resides where men believe knighthood resides? :)

The Hound was allowed to momentarily enter the most sacred knighly shrine of example, the Royal Guard, without being a knight, and presumiing of that!

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Don't forget Ser Barristan making a bunch of knights who believe in the Great Shepherd and whatever.

[mediterraneo]

Don't forget Ser Barristan making a bunch of knights who believe in the Great Shepherd and whatever.

Right! :agree:

(And i really hoped you could come up with some cite about the sept cerimonies, too, Bright Blue Eyes, but that's another thing :) )

[Le Cygne]

Simple knighting from Dunk and Egg (the Hedge Knight):

The Laughing Storm gave an impatient shake of the head. "Go to him, Ser Duncan. I'll give squire Raymun his knighthood." He slid his sword out of his sheath and shouldered Dunk aside. "Raymun of House Fossoway," he began solemnly, touching the blade to the squire's right shoulder, "in the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave." The sword moved from his right shoulder to his left. "In the name of the Father I charge you to be just." Back to the right. "In the name of the Mother I charge you to defend the young and innocent." The left. "In the name of the Maid I charge you to protect all women."

Maester Luwin:

"To be a knight, you must stand your vigil in a sept, and be anointed with the seven oils to consecrate your vows. In the north, only a few of the great houses worship the Seven. The rest honor the old gods, and name no knights... but those lords and their sons and sworn swords are no less fierce or loyal or honorable. A man's worth is not marked by a ser before his name. As I have told you a hundred times before."

After the Blackwater battle:

More than six hundred new knights were made that day. They had held their vigil in the Great Sept of Baelor all through the night and crossed the city barefoot that morning to prove their humble hearts. Now they came forward dressed in shifts of undyed wool to receive their knighthoods from the Kingsguard. It took a long time, since only three of the Brothers of the White Sword were on hand to dub them.

Jaime:

It had been years since his last vigil. And I was younger then, a boy of fifteen years. He had worn no armor then, only a plain white tunic. The sept where he'd spent the night was not a third as large as any of the Great Sept's seven transepts. Jaime had laid his sword across the Warrior's knees, piled his armor at his feet, and knelt upon the rough stone floor before the altar. When dawn came his knees were raw and bloody. "All knights must bleed, Jaime," Ser Arthur Dayne had said, when he saw. "Blood is the seal of our devotion." With dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew. He never felt it. A boy knelt; a knight rose...

[a boy and his wolf]

Knighthood, like the faith of the seven, is an andal tradition and as such is not commonly practiced in the North, however it is very common for cultures to be influenced by other cultures.

as a rule, traditions are as rigid or compromising, as the person who practices them.

[mediterraneo]

For other cultures to adopt the knighthood as a value, they need some sort of contact with the culture bringing the value in.

No Great Sherperd follower would have thought of becoming a knight if Barristan Selmy hadn't be there to teach to the boys - which are there not for the institution per se but for the place in Daenerys's world that being thaught the arms gives them.

Mormont wouldn't have become a knight without the King, his King, nominating him in the aftermath of the battle. He didn't actually have a vigil anywhere.

He was an important lord's son and heir, he was brave enough to be with the firsts breaking in Pike, if he was an andal lord of the south he would have already been a knight before the battle, or even before the campaign.

So, back to the original point. Why a Flea Bottom's commoner, angry at the Lords in general, would want to become a knight, one of them? I could get it if

Dondarrion started to make knights on a wide scale, but Dondarrion is dead.

Why would Gendry want to become a knight? And who would think of him as a possible knight?

But hey, the fact that I don't see it doesn't mean he won't be.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Um, Dondarrion already did knight his lads on a large scale, and Gendry thus already is a knight

[JonCon's Red Beard]

After the Blackwater battle:

That reminds me of "community civil weddings". Sometimes, every once in one year, mayors offer this kind of weddings for anyone living in their district who can't afford something fancy. Here in Peru those are organized by the City Halls, but I think in some other countries, the churches do the same with religious weddings. I suppose in both cases (community weddings and the knightings) is a convenience to do the rituals in a bunch. If they go through the whole ceremony with EVERY one of those knights-to-be, it would take days.

The knighting "on-the-go" is also a convenience when there is the need to make a knight. Again, comparing it with a religious ritual, the Confession, the Anointing of the Sick and the Baptism are rituals that are meant to be done by priests only, unless there is an emergency. Any other catholic can perform it in case of need. For instance, if a person is dying and no priest is around, I could "absolve" them from their sins.

[Slender Aimry Hill]

Anyone think that Dondarrion moment owes a wee bit to Balian of Ibelin?