Dragonriders vs. Skinchangers and Wargs (Not Literally, By Comparison):

[ColdHandsLuke]

Having just read the Princess and the Queen, I was surprised by how detailed it was on the topic of dragonriders and their dragons.

I. Saw no sign of magic OVERT MAGIC:

The Targaryens and Velaryons didn't seem to be *overtly* using any magic to control their dragons.

II. Dragons tamed:

It seemed to me that most of the dragons were controlled by plain, ol' taming and training. The dragons felt more like horses in the novella, than like the animals we see being controlled by skinchangers. By that. . . for instance the dragons acted more like the Hound's Stranger, than like any of the Stark dire-pups. They tolerated their riders, but didn't seem connected, for the most part.

III. Were some Targs skinchangers-lite?

A few of the Targaryens and their dragons seemed to share a connection, just not one as close as full-on wargs. The Boar-guy at Castle Black, the Starks, etc seemed to be very closely tied to the companions in their thoughts. King Burned-gon's golden dragon limped to meet him on Dragonstone, which seems very wargish. But then, Queen Rhaenyra's trusty dragon decided to up and kill her son. I can't see Summer getting annoyed with Rickon and eating his face off. So, I think they don't really share thoughts -Targs and dragons. Yes/No?

Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

[TheMysteriousOne]

I'm pretty sure that the Targaryens have fairly strong bonds with their dragons, and this idea is pretty pervasive in TPATQ. Helaena's dragon, Dreamfyre scramed incredibly loudly when she kiled herself, for instance. And Sunfyre tried to crawl to Aegon after he fell off of him, and Aegon wept after Sunfyre's death. The list goes on and on.

The books themselves show that Dany and her dragons have a strong bond, particularly between her and Drogon. The reason why they may not seem like they do not share a strong bond is because dragons are known to be pretty capricious creatures and aren't entirely controlled by their riders, in contrast to skinchanging, where the skinchanger can literally completely control their bonded animal.

[Leonardo]

Its a different kind of magic to be sure;

Dany and the dragon dreams had by numerous targs or relatives definitely imply there is magic in the bloodline.

The children are called the singers of the earth; their magic has a lot to do with the weirwoods and the old places of the world. Many people think this is a form of earth magic after what is seen in the world of ice and fire tidbits about rhoynish water wizards. There are elements to each magic it seems, but its also more complicated than that as well. The hammer of waters was sent by the COTF, and there are are number of different ways of using fire for magic.

We know that the dragonlords used to use overt magic to control dragons through whips and horns though, so I think the Targaryen methods were a bit regressed in some ways. They were only a minor house of the 40 in Valyria, so it makes sense they didn't have many prized relics to carry over.

In short, yes there is magic in the Targaryen bloodline. Dany was unburned in the fire and seemed to have something akin to a genetic memory or dragon dreams all through GoT that culminates in the hatching. I think it was an old Valyrian method of birthing dragons, an old magic

[Fire Eater]

GRRM said no dragon has ever been skinchanged. I think that will change when Jon mounts one towards the end of the series.

I'm pretty sure that the Targaryens have fairly strong bonds with their dragons, and this idea is pretty pervasive in TPATQ. Helaena's dragon, Dreamfyre scramed incredibly loudly when she kiled herself, for instance. And Sunfyre tried to crawl to Aegon after he fell off of him, and Aegon wept after Sunfyre's death. The list goes on and on.

The dragons of the different parties of the greens and blacks were said to snap at each other when brought together, suggesting that they share their masters' relationships with one another as well.

[Mithras]

The dragons of the different parties of the greens and blacks were said to snap at each other when brought together, suggesting that they share their masters' relationships with one another as well.

True. But dogs can do exactly the same in Real Life without magical bonds whatsoever.

I agree with the OP that TPATQ depicted the dragons as firebreathing and flying horses.

[KINGpanther]

Didn't the Valarians use their blood and dragon blood in a blood magic ritual to bound them together?

[Mithras]

Didn't the Valarians use their blood and dragon blood in a blood magic ritual to bound them together?

Aemond just sneaked in and sat on Vhagar to bond with it.

[MoIaF]

Having just read the Princess and the Queen, I was surprised by how detailed it was on the topic of dragonriders and their dragons.

I. Saw no sign of magic:

The Targaryens and Velaryons didn't seem to be using any magic to control their dragons.

II. Dragons tamed:

It seemed to me that most of the dragons were controlled by plain, ol' taming and training. The dragons felt more like horses in the novella, than like the animals we see being controlled by skinchangers. By that. . . for instance the dragons acted more like the Hound's Stranger, than like any of the Stark dire-pups. They tolerated their riders, but didn't seem connected, for the most part.

III. Were some Targs skinchangers-lite?

A few of the Targaryens and their dragons seemed to share a connection, just not one as close as full-on wargs. The Boar-guy at Castle Black, the Starks, etc seemed to be very closely tied to the companions in their thoughts. King Burned-gon's golden dragon limped to meet him on Dragonstone, which seems very wargish. But then, Queen Rhaenyra's trusty dragon decided to up and kill her son. I can't see Summer getting annoyed with Rickon and eating his face off. So, I think they don't really share thoughts -Targs and dragons. Yes/No?

Anyone else have some thoughts on this?

How can you make any of these claims when we don't have any dragonlord PPOV's in either of these novellas. All we are reading about is observed behavior from someone who wasn't even a Targaryen.

TMO has already mentioned some observed behavior which shines some light into the extent of the bond between a dragon and a rider. However, we'll have to wait until TWOW to really get an depth view (from Dany) of the bond between a rider and her dragon.

Having said that we've already seen that magic is very much involved in creating a bond with a dragon. Right after Dany got married and she was contemplating suicide, Drogon came to her in a dream and bathed her in dragon fire and washed away her pain. When she work up she felt better and stronger, Drogon was still an egg at this moment.

GRRM has said about the bond between a dragon and rider:

"...There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond.

True. But dogs can do exactly the same in Real Life without magical bonds whatsoever.

I agree with the OP that TPATQ depicted the dragons as firebreathing and flying horses.

This description completely ignores the text and GRRM's own words.

[Mithras]

"...There is a rich history of the mythical bond between dragon and rider. There have been instances of dragons responding to their riders even from very far away (hmm) which shows it is a true and very strong bond.

"...There is a rich history of the mythical bond between Stranger and the Hound. There have been instances of Stranger eating men's faces or smashing their bones whereas he was gentle as a pony with the Hound, which shows it is a true and very strong bond.

[MoIaF]

"...There is a rich history of the mythical bond between Stranger and the Hound. There have been instances of Stranger eating men's faces or smashing their bones whereas he was gentle as a pony with the Hound, which shows it is a true and very strong bond.

If that's all you have to say then I suppose we don't have much to discuss. You obviously don't understand the long documented mythical bond between Dany and her dragons especially Drogon. And although Dany has just become a dragon rider it's easy to see how deep her bond with Drogon will be given that they have an already established mother and dragon bond.

GRRM has made a consorted effort to establish the spiritual bond using dragon dream, he has also shown us the physical bond with the dragons, their reaction to Dany's emotions especially Drogon is well documented through Dany's story.

Comparing that bond to one with a horse or a dog is mocking GRRM's words as you just did as well as ignoring the text.

[ColdHandsLuke]

Comparing that bond to one with a horse or a dog is mocking GRRM's words as you just did as well as ignoring the text.

I know you're referring to another poster, but I made a similar comparison so let me explain:

Most (but not all) of the P&Q dragonriders don't appear to be warging at all, just training them. Aegon the Elder and Sunfyre seem like they might be connected almost as much as wargs, but the others seem to be on a sliding scale below him for their connections. I mentioned the Hound-Stranger only as a comparison with Bran-Summer. Some of the behavior of the P&Q dragons seem so far from Summer's that they're closer to Stranger.

There's obviously some kind of bond between the Targs and their dragons, I'm just curious to hear the thoughts of others on how those bonds compare with skinchangers, who've gotten more ink in the series.

[ColdHandsLuke]

We know that the dragonlords used to use overt magic to control dragons through whips and horns...

Overt magic is a good way to phrase it. In my 1st post, that's what I meant by "Saw no sign of magic". I didn't see any magic horns or blood-magic rituals.

[MoIaF]

I know you're referring to another poster, but I made a similar comparison so let me explain:

Most (but not all) of the P&Q dragonriders don't appear to be warging at all, just training them. Aegon the Elder and Sunfyre seem like they might be connected almost as much as wargs, but the others seem to be on a sliding scale below him for their connections. I mentioned the Hound-Stranger only as a comparison with Bran-Summer. Some of the behavior of the P&Q dragons seem so far from Summer's that they're closer to Stranger.

There's obviously some kind of bond between the Targs and their dragons, I'm just curious to hear the thoughts of others on how those bonds compare with skinchangers, who've gotten more ink in the series.

As I had mentioned to the poster above the problem with basing your opinion of TPaTQ is that we don't have a POV from ANY of the dragons riders prospective. In fact, the information we get is from a third party (a Maester).

So far from what we have seen of the bond between Drogon and Dany is that it is quite an intimidate bond. From the fact that Dany had her first dragon dream of Drogon before she received her dragon eggs, to having him heal her (while still an egg) through her dreams in the Dothraki Sea and to having him appear in Daznak's Pit when she most needed him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think it's clear that there's some form of bond going on there. What's less clear is how that bond is formed and how much of it has to do with some instantaneous magical spark versus imprinting and conditioning. Is it down to psychology, like Aemond successfully approaching Vhagar because he did so without fear? Is it bonding and trust-building, the way Nettles tamed Sheepstealer? Are there different ways to get to the same outcome? Does Valyrian blood have anything to do with it, or is it more down to familial links? Not Valyrian to Valyrian, but father to son, brother to brother, aunt to niece, etc.

I don't think it's an unfair assessment to note that the Targaryens seem to have brought little in the way of advanced Valyrian technology with them to Westeros. They were unable to create new Valyrian steel or make new Valyrian roads or conduct, from what we've seen, Valyrian-style sorcery. It's possible that the Valyrians did have some magical bond with the dragons through "overt magic," and what we see the Targaryens do is try to replicate that through other means, since for whatever reason Valyrian magic/technology seems lost to them.

What I do not think it resembles is warging. Until and unless someone provides a situation where a dragonider actually possessed a dragon, not just rode one, and was able to see through its eyes and share its consciousness. Whether you think warging is "above," "equal to" or "less than" the dragonriding bond is moot; they're not the same thing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

having him appear in Daznak's Pit when she most needed him.

It's quite romantic to think of Drogon intuitively swooping in to save Dany because she needed him at that time. But it's equally possible that a dragon who was hungry smelled meat and blood coming from the noisy pit and came down to get a snack. Which is actually the first thing he does: burns Barsena and the boar and eats them. He doesn't even immediately "assist" Dany; he's snapping and shooting flames her way just like everyone else until she subdues him.

I'm not saying Dany and Drogon aren't bonded, just that I think it's a bit odd to ignore the other more pressing, biological reasons why he might otherwise have been drawn to the pit. Just like it's easy to say that Sunfyre came to Dragonstone because Aegon II was there and ignore the fact that Sunfyre was born on Dragonstone and it provided the best, most familiar places for an injured dragon to hide.

[MoIaF]

It's quite romantic to think of Drogon intuitively swooping in to save Dany because she needed him at that time. But it's equally possible that a dragon who was hungry smelled meat and blood coming from the noisy pit and came down to get a snack. Which is actually the first thing he does: burns Barsena and the boar and eats them. He doesn't even immediately "assist" Dany; he's snapping and shooting flames her way just like everyone else until she subdues him.

Really? From some 1000 miles away. Well that's some nose Drogon got there. Because as we know his lair is in the Dothraki Sea and Meereen is quite a ways away from there.

We know that he has enough space and food in the Dothraki sea so there was absolutely no reason for him to be in Meereen other then the fact that Dany is there. In fact up to that moment he had not been seen anywhere near Meereen.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Really? From some 1000 miles away. Well that's some nose Drogon got there. Because as we know his lair is in the Dothraki Sea and Meereen is quite a ways away from there.

We know that he has enough space and food in the Dothraki sea so there was absolutely no reason for him to be in Meereen other then the fact that Dany is there. In fact up to that moment he had not been seen anywhere near Meereen.

It was also, incidentally, the first time the fighting pit had been used since it reopened. If it was the blood and noise of it that drew him, obviously it wouldn't have done so before because the pit had been empty. Your point would be stronger if the pit had been in regular use before then and he only showed up that one time, but that isn't what happened. It would also be stronger if he had shown up to randomly "save" Dany (why is he shooting fire and snapping at her if he's there because she "needs" him, by the way?) without the obvious incentive of easy food.

His lair is in the Dothraki Sea but he isn't there are all the time. He leaves and comes back to it.

[MoIaF]

It was also, incidentally, the first time the fighting pit had been used since it reopened. If it was the blood and noise of it that drew him, obviously it wouldn't have done so before the pit had been empty. Your point would be stronger if the pit had been in regular use before then and he only showed up that one time, but that isn't what happened. It would also be stronger if he had shown up to randomly "save" Dany (why is he shooting fire and snapping at her if he's there because she "needs" him, by the way?) without the obvious incentive of easy food.

His lair is in the Dothraki Sea but he isn't there are all the time. He leaves and comes back to it.

If Drogon's "Dragonstone" wasn't at least (and I'm being very conservative) 1000 miles away, I'd give some consideration to your scenario. It's ridiculous to think that the blood or the noise would have drawn him there. He would have to have spent hours flying before he would have heard or smelled anything. And of course not to mention the fact that when Dany was with him in Dragonstone he refused to fly her to Meereen. Also of note is that Dany was able to keep track of him during her time at Dragonstone which means he keeps to a pretty tight hunting zone.

I'm not going to get into Dany and Drogon's reunion because it's a lot more complicated then him snapping at her and blowing fire. Suffice it to say that when she decided she wanted to be his dragon rider he bowed down to her.

[ChillyPolly]

GRRM said no dragon has ever been skinchanged.

Not quite.

[BearQueen87]

The fresh kill in the pit might have something to do with it, but that largely depends on how close Drogon was at the time of the kill. He could have been nearby, but we don't know.

However, I don't think it's coincidence that Drogon appears seconds after Dany rips off her tokar in a metaphorical freeing of her inner dragon.

As for why Drogon snaps and doesn't acquiesce to her instantly, Dany has to prove herself, prove that she's still the Mother of Dragons. She chained his siblings and then Drogon, the dragon that she is closest to, fled symbolizing Dany losing her own "dragon."

I think that scene is doing a lot and it could be a combination of both AM's and MOIAF's factors.