dread pirate davos Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 First time around I didn't like bowen, he appeared purposefully obtuse, bigoted and he stabbed Jon. But lately I've came to the conclusion that though I don't agree with him on most issues he has reasons for his views. Moreover I believe him when he said that he attacked Jon "for the watch". Jon just declared his intention to desert the wall and attack the seemingly victorious boltons with a army of wildlings and being their wrath down on the watch. I also think he didn't like what he was doing and knew he probably wouldn't survive the fallout, thus the tears. This strikes me as brave. I still don't like the man, but I've found a grudging respect for him and was wondering what every one else's thoughts on him were? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 A man just trying to keep his oaths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 First time around I didn't like bowen, he appeared purposefully obtuse, bigoted and he stabbed Jon. But lately I've came to the conclusion that though I don't agree with him on most issues he has reasons for his views. Moreover I believe him when he said that he attacked Jon "for the watch". Jon just declared his intention to desert the wall and attack the seemingly victorious boltons with a army of wildlings and being their wrath down on the watch. I also think he didn't like what he was doing and knew he probably wouldn't survive the fallout, thus the tears. This strikes me as brave. I still don't like the man, but I've found a grudging respect for him and was wondering what every one else's thoughts on him were? I agree with you 100%. But they are going to come for you hard for this. Brace yourself, the Bowen hatred knows no bounds and does not answer to reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Of The Night Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I agree with you 100%.But they are going to come for you hard for this. Brace yourself, the Bowen hatred knows no bounds and does not answer to reason.And here it comes....Bowen claims to be doing it for the watch, and maybe he thinks its true, but I doubt it. He is a sad, beaten down, person. Hes failed in all his ambitions. He wants to believe he is doing the right thing, but he isn't. He is being manipulated, and he will be remembered not as the person who saved the watch, but as the person who betrayed his commander, and lost.Thatvsaid, I respect your idea and it does have merit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Though I have no love for the man nor agree with his actions I believe that he believed that he was doing his duty and acting in the interest of the preservation of the Watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 He thinks he's honorable, and to an extent we can justify his actions as that, but he's also quite an ignorant person and short-sighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Bowen Marsh is a near-useless functionary who cannot see beyind the status quo.Yes, he thinks he's doing the right thing, but that's because he cannot bring himself to look at the big picture. He's not a greedy coward like Slynt or a malevolent thug like Thorne, but he takes such a narrow view of his Night Watch duties that he forgets it all has a larger purpose. Even before he stabbed Jon, the other Watch leaders had a low opinion of him - not as a person, but as a leader.If this was Titanic, he'd be one of those guys who refuses to let the steerage passengers up on the first class deck while the ship is sinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 And here it comes.... drumroll dum dum dum dum dum. You are just the first wave. Bowen claims to be doing it for the watch, and maybe he thinks its true, but I doubt it.Bowen's actions are clearly not going to have a good outcome no. However, for all we know, Jon's wouldn't have done either. He is a sad, beaten down, person. Hes failed in all his ambitions. He wants to believe he is doing the right thing, but he isn't.For the most part this is true. His criticisms of Jon's strategy weren't contemptible in my view, but he was wrong. He is being manipulated I fail to see convincing evidence for this, although many posters appear convinced of it. and he will be remembered not as the person who saved the watch, but as the person who betrayed his commander, and lost.Maybe. Or maybe Jon will be remembered as the commander who betrayed the watch. Thatvsaid, I respect your idea and it does have merit That's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blerg Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I disagree the Gift is the sovereign land of the watch. Ramsey through the pink letter was saying that he would launch an invasion and execute the Lord Commander of the Watch. It would be the same if some country told us that they would invade and execute our president if we didn't do what they wanted. John is therefore going to war in order to protect the watch not himself or his interests. What Bowen marsh did was cowardly and hypocritical to his claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion Of The Night Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 .That's good.Well my first draft did have far more expletives. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I disagree the Gift is the sovereign land of the watch. Ramsey through the pink letter was saying that he would launch an invasion and execute the Lord Commander of the Watch. It would be the same if some country told us that they would invade and execute our president if we didn't do what they wanted. John is therefore going to war in order to protect the watch not himself or his interests. What Bowen marsh did was cowardly and hypocritical to his claim. Jon even thinks to himself about how his actions are against his vows, moreover Jon can be partially blamed for Ramsay's threat seeing how he has/is seen to have repeatedly interfered in the workings of the North which is under Bolton control. I don't see how March taking out Jon is cowardly, seeing how it comes at a risk to his safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oopeed Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 He's the ultimate hero of the series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I disagree the Gift is the sovereign land of the watch. Ramsey through the pink letter was saying that he would launch an invasion and execute the Lord Commander of the Watch. It would be the same if some country told us that they would invade and execute our president if we didn't do what they wanted. John is therefore going to war in order to protect the watch not himself or his interests. What Bowen marsh did was cowardly and hypocritical to his claim.This seems like a pretty weak justification for the Lord Commander to march against a lord to me, had he received word that Ramsay had mustered his men and was marching against them sure.The letter had demands, it wasn't simply a declaration of intention to strike and Jon does have a personal stake in attacking the Boltons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Ravens Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Bowen Marsh comes across as a misguided individual to me. It's like he wants to do what is right and noble and best for the Watch but focuses too much on the letter of their mandate rather than the spirit in which it was intended to be interpreted. We're talking about a guy who threw his support behind Janos Slynt during the last election for Lord Commander because of his history as a commander while missing that Slynt was corrupt and self serving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Second To Last Dragon Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 don't care for marsh, but i get it.i guess.kind of a dick move though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blerg Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I don't know if Ramsay could make a declaration a war any clearer. War is most legitimate reason to march against someone. Either March out or fight with your backs against the wall. John chose the former.Oh and backstabbing is always cowardly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blerg Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I don't know if Ramsay could make a declaration a war any clearer. War is most legitimate reason to march against someone. Either March out or fight with your backs against the wall. John chose the former.Oh and backstabbing is always cowardly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dread pirate davos Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 I disagree the Gift is the sovereign land of the watch. Ramsey through the pink letter was saying that he would launch an invasion and execute the Lord Commander of the Watch. It would be the same if some country told us that they would invade and execute our president if we didn't do what they wanted. John is therefore going to war in order to protect the watch not himself or his interests. What Bowen marsh did was cowardly and hypocritical to his claim. Though there is self defence there, from bowens perspective Jon is attacking the warden of the not the son in a lost cause that threatens the watches neutrality, not only is he the wardens son though, he's the notorious bastard of Bolton, renowned for hunting women and being thoroughly a sadist. You can understand from a pragmatic point of view why you wouldn't want your faction dragged into a conflict like that. Especially when it's not watch business. Ramseys demands were selyse, Mel, shorten, Val, the baby, his.wife and theon. Which is essentially the family of an perceived usurper and hostages to ensure the wildlings good behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 A man just trying to keep his oaths I'm with you 100% on this one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 I don't know if Ramsay could make a declaration a war any clearer. War is most legitimate reason to march against someone. Either March out or fight with your backs against the wall. John chose the former.Oh and backstabbing is always cowardly And by most appearances Jon is strongly responsible for invoking that declaration by interfering with the Warden of the North's domain. He had little other means to stop Jon, especially seeing how Jon has shown that he cares not about listening to his officers and opposing his actions/orders comes with the penalty of execution without trial or hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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