opinions on bowen marsh?

[Trigger Warning]

I don't know if Ramsay could make a declaration a war any clearer. War is most legitimate reason to march against someone. Either March out or fight with your backs against the wall. John chose the former.

Oh and backstabbing is always cowardly

He didn't declare a war, he issued demands and if it was Ramsay that wrote the letter then he is already aware of Jon breaking the neutrality of the Night's Watch in sending Mance to steal his wife. They're also harbouring enemies of the crown. Had the Night's watch harboured Targaryens no doubt Bob would come knocking with Ned at his back.

Should Jon as a good person give in to Ramsay's demands? No. Should he as a Lord Commander of the night's watch that wishes to remain neutral and keep the watch alive give in to said demands? Probably. The night's watch declaring open war on the Warden of the North's son would look disastrous to Marsh, especially when it's House Bolton's wrath that's stirred.

Who cares what's cowardly when such things are at stake?

[blerg]

Though there is self defence there, from bowens perspective Jon is attacking the warden of the not the son in a lost cause that threatens the watches neutrality, not only is he the wardens son though, he's the notorious bastard of Bolton, renowned for hunting women and being thoroughly a sadist. You can understand from a pragmatic point of view why you wouldn't want your faction dragged into a conflict like that. Especially when it's not watch business. Ramseys demands were selyse, Mel, shorten, Val, the baby, his.wife and theon. Which is essentially the family of an perceived usurper and hostages to ensure the wildlings good behaviour.

The wall is indefensible from the south. The Pink letter is a declaration of war so it's either meet your enemy on your terms or his. Bowen Marsh would have the watch stick it's head in the snow.

[Crowford]

Sure, I agree that Jon's actions, and even more so the way he communicated his actions were less then stellar. His tenure as Lord Commander has seen great transformations in both the internal structure and mission of the Watch, and in it's role in relation to the rest of the realm - cooperation with Wildlings, admission of women, a sort-of alliance with Stannis, interference in Northern politics (Alys Karstark) and now the intention of going to war south of the Wall. Not saying that Jon was wrong on any of that counts (or that he had a choice in others), but he never adequately communicated what his reasonings were. It's not hard to see how his conflict with Ramsey could be construed as Jon acting to avenge his father and siblings, and maybe even claim Winterfell for himself (which Stannis offered him, after all, so the thought was not really far off).

But on the other hand, Bowen Marsh acted even more stupidly, making sure that the powder keg that is the Wall right now would blow up right in his narrow-minded face, no matter if his assassination attempt is successful or not. He has no sufficient power structure behind him, Ramsey is not going to relent just because Jon is dead, so they'd still have to rely on Stannis winning his war, and any cooperation with the Wildlings is now off the table.

[sj4iy]

Only an idiot would attempt to publicly kill his LC that has just won over a bunch of Wildlings during a Giant's attack on the Queensmen. Especially after this same idiot said "the Wildlings will have enough people to wipe us out in one night". It can only lead to a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

I also find it difficult to believe that anyone is more afraid of what the Iron Throne might do instead of what an army of undead WILL do.

[The Dragons Hand]

Heart is in the right place. That's good, I didn't have time to learn an entirely new physiology

*Continues stabbing*

"For the watch, fucker."

[Trigger Warning]

Only an idiot would attempt to publicly kill his LC that has just won over a bunch of Wildlings during a Giant's attack on the Queensmen. Especially after this same idiot said "the Wildlings will have enough people to wipe us out in one night". It can only lead to a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

I also find it difficult to believe that anyone is more afraid of what the Iron Throne might do instead of what an army of undead WILL do.

Jon going south with the greater part of his strength against the Warden of the North doesn't really do this argument any favours.

[sj4iy]

Jon going south with the greater part of his strength doesn't really do this argument any favours.

...I wasn't talking about Jon, I was talking about Bowen Marsh. Marsh is constantly worrying about what the Iron Throne will think of all of Jon's decisions that it blinds him to the fact that they are in very real danger of a zombie army attacking any day.

[Lopsang]

Oh my God. I hate this forum, I really do. No, you guys can like Theon, but Bowen is too much.

[Trigger Warning]

...I wasn't talking about Jon, I was talking about Bowen Marsh.

I know.

So why exactly should Bowen support Jon talking most of their strength South to die fighting the Iron Throne when they need that strength to stand against the Others.

[blerg]

The "warden of the north's" bastard son saying that he's going to invade the nights watch rape, torture, and kill brothers does John's actions a lot of favors. So I have a question how does assassinating the LC do anything but turn the watch into a complete clusterfuck and undermine any chance at peace with the south?

[Trigger Warning]

The "warden of the north's" bastard son saying that he's going to invade the nights watch rape, torture, and kill brothers does John's actions a lot of favors. So I have a question how does assassinating the LC do anything but turn the watch into a complete clusterfuck and undermine any chance at peace with the aouth?

I never said Bowen made a smart decision.

[dread pirate davos]

I also find it difficult to believe that anyone is more afraid of what the Iron Throne might do instead of what an army of undead WILL do.

That's some thing I do find odd about him, he seems to give zero shits to the others. He knows what happened at the fist surely, maybe because he hasn't actually saw one the threat doesn't seem real to him. That or he's so caught up in preparing for winter and.his distrust of the wildlings he has too much to focus on.

Oh my God. I hate this forum, I really do. No, you guys can like Theon, but Bowen is too much.

Not sure if your joking or not, but I said in the OP I didn't like him, just that I understand and have a certain respect for him.

[Minsc]

The "warden of the north's" bastard son saying that he's going to invade the nights watch rape, torture, and kill brothers does John's actions a lot of favors. So I have a question how does assassinating the LC do anything but turn the watch into a complete clusterfuck and undermine any chance at peace with the south?

It gives demonstrative proof that Marsh and company had nothing to with Jon's repeated interferences with the south.

[dread pirate davos]

The "warden of the north's" bastard son saying that he's going to invade the nights watch rape, torture, and kill brothers does John's actions a lot of favors. So I have a question how does assassinating the LC do anything but turn the watch into a complete clusterfuck and undermine any chance at peace with the south?

Ramsey doesn't threaten to rape, torture and kill the brothers. He says "send them to me bastard and I will not.trouble you or your black crows, keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it" it's more a threat to Jon than to the watch. Besides everything else, bowen among others fought the wildlings, to stop an army of them attacking the people of westeros. Now their lord commander intends to do just that.

[blerg]

Great marsh and his co-conspirators will be fine while the rest of the brothers and everyone else on the wall is totally fucked. I guess that's really in the Best interests of the nights watch. Oh and those Others they'll just go home I guess.

[blerg]

Ramsey doesn't threaten to rape, torture and kill the brothers. He says "send them to me bastard and I will not.trouble you or your black crows, keep them from me, and I will cut out your bastard's heart and eat it" it's more a threat to Jon than to the watch. Besides everything else, bowen among others fought the wildlings, to stop an army of them attacking the people of westeros. Now their lord commander intends to do just that.

It's called reading between the lines. Ramsey already says he's flayed 6 whores in the letter do you really think he's not going to torture the people Jon sends to him? Jon is also the LC threatening him is the same as threatening the watch, they do call themselves brothers afterall. The wildlings running roughshod over the north is a far cry from them marching as an army under direct command of the LC

[Minsc]

Great marsh and his co-conspirators will be fine while the rest of the brothers and everyone else on the wall is totally fucked. I guess that's really in the Best interests of the nights watch. Oh and those Others they'll just go home I guess.

Why would the rest of the Watch be fucked?

Better then Jon starting a losing war with the Boltons which then leads the Boltons to strike out against all of the NW, which then allows the Others easy access as Jon's plans had led to the decimation of the Watch in pointless conflicts down south.

[Boarsbane]

Great marsh and his co-conspirators will be fine while the rest of the brothers and everyone else on the wall is totally fucked. I guess that's really in the Best interests of the nights watch. Oh and those Others they'll just go home I guess.

As someone already stated Jon was already planning to take most of their strength south into what would likely be a slaughter so not seeing how Marsh is hurting them too much as far as the threat of the Others go.

[blerg]

Because Marsh is fragmenting the nights watch into pro and anti John factions. Not to mention pissing off the free folk, and pissing off the queens men. All of which individually have the strength to crush Marsh and his supporters. So when Ramsay shows up, which he will, how do think that will go?

[Mal Malenkirk]

There are reasons why the Night Watch must remain neutral and not interfer in the affair of the realms. Jon broke that stricture repeatedly during ADWD, first secretly and then blatantly during the Alys Karstark incident. Then he planned to march an army south. An army! Sure, he was responding to the Pink Letter. But the Pink letter itself was a response to Jon interfering in the first place by sending Rayder south on a secret mission. A capture followed by a bakclash was always a possibility and exactly the reason why a Lord Commander swears not to interfer with the affairs of the realm!

Jon fucked up badly by choosing to interfer, and he did so with the most noble of intention. Who would let his sister and Alys in the hands of villains? Well, a true Lord Commander of the Night Watch would, it's hist duty to ignore anything going on south and focus on the Wall.

The irony here is that Martin presented Jon with several opportunity to break his vows for selfish reasons in the first books and he always ended up choosing his duty. But give him power and tempt him him through his nobler nature and he crumbled hard in just one book!

Bottom line, the mutiny was warranted in the sense that it's ASOIAF equivalent to a subordinate removing a superior from command because he has become unfit for duty. Also, I like Jon a lot more since ADWD so now I'm sad. :(