opinions on bowen marsh?

[Game of Thrones Reference]

Although his intentions may have been pure, I do believe stabbing Jon will do more harm than good. The Night's Watch will now be divided at a time when they need to be united.

[David Selig]

Biggest hero in the series. He bravely sacrificed himself for the reader's benefit.

[The Wolves]

He's dumb how does he stab Jon when the Wildlings are on the side of the wall and they outnumber the NW. They are there because of their cooperation with Jon, and hat does he think the Wildlings are going to do?

[blerg]

There are reasons why the Night Watch must remain neutral and not interfer in the affair of the realms. Jon broke that stricture repeatedly during ADWD, first secretly and then blatantly during the Alys Karstark incident. Then he planned to march an army south. An army! Sure, he was responding to the Pink Letter. But the Pink letter itself was a response to Jon interfering in the first place by sending Rayder south on a secret mission. A capture followed by a bakclash was always a possibility and exactly the reason why a Lord Commander swears not to interfer with the affairs of the realm!

Jon fucked up badly by choosing to interfer, and he did so with the most noble of intention. Who would let his sister and Alys in the hands of villains? Well, a true Lord Commander of the Night Watch would, it's hist duty to ignore anything going on south and focus on the Wall.

The irony here is that Martin presented Jon with several opportunity to break his vows for selfish reasons in the first books and he always ended up choosing his duty. But give him power and tempt him him through his nobler nature and he crumbled hard in just one book!

Bottom line, the mutiny was warranted in the sense that it's ASOIAF equivalent to a subordinate removing a superior from command because he has become unfit for duty. Also, I like Jon a lot more since ADWD so now I'm sad. :(

Very interesting I had not considered that aspect. I do think you may be right in terms of character development. In terms of realism, however much I can liberally use the term for a fantasy series, I think Jon is justified in his actions. especially considering that the Nights Watch doesn't know of his involvement in sending Mance. Furthermore I think that Marsh is sabotaging his own cause.

[Minsc]

Very interesting I had not considered that aspect. I do think you may be right in terms of character development. In terms of realism, however much I can liberally use the term for a fantasy series, I think Jon is justified in his actions. especially considering that the Nights Watch doesn't know of his involvement in sending Mance. Furthermore I think that Marsh is sabotaging his own cause.

Ramsay mentions it in the Pink Letter, which Jon read out load to the NW.

[Quentyn: Prince of Dorne]

Bowen wanted to keep with tradition. That doesn't change the fact he's brainless, wrong most of the time, and too shortsighted to see where the real danger lies.

[The Holy Goat]

I believe him to be misguided, ignorant and short-sighted, but not a necessarily bad person.

[Sansa's Bad Memory]

He's the ultimate hero of the series.

Are you saying he Neville Longbottomed Jon, the Chosen One?

[Salafi Stannis]

I agree he thinks he's doing the right thing, but he still sucks.

[MyLittleFinger]

He served the watch well, defended the Shadow Tower despite not being a warrior. Counted food like no other. Served deserters with death.

[unitron]

If Marsh is afraid that Jon's interception of someone who's coming to demand that The Watch violate guest right would be interpreted as th4e entire Watch breaking the part of the oath about taking sides, does he really have to jump straight to assassination instead of raising the issue in discussion?

He seems to have decided to do it (and managed to round up a posse) practically on the spur of the moment, because from the time he heard Jon read the PL out loud to everyone 'til the stabbing started would have only been about 15 minutes or so.

[sj4iy]

As someone already stated Jon was already planning to take most of their strength south into what would likely be a slaughter so not seeing how Marsh is hurting them too much as far as the threat of the Others go.

How do you know what Jon's plan was? I don't know what it was, because we, the readers, didn't see him make it. All we know is that he planned on making Ramsay "pay" for his words. I very much doubt Jon was simply going to ride up to the gates with a couple hundred Wildlings and attack, because his initial plan involved only himself going. There was something else in mind.

[butterbumps!]

First time around I didn't like bowen, he appeared purposefully obtuse, bigoted and he stabbed Jon. But lately I've came to the conclusion that though I don't agree with him on most issues he has reasons for his views. Moreover I believe him when he said that he attacked Jon "for the watch". Jon just declared his intention to desert the wall and attack the seemingly victorious boltons with a army of wildlings and being their wrath down on the watch. I also think he didn't like what he was doing and knew he probably wouldn't survive the fallout, thus the tears. This strikes me as brave. I still don't like the man, but I've found a grudging respect for him and was wondering what every one else's thoughts on him were?

I don't disagree with this broadly, but I still find him to be fairly useless.

Ironically, my major issue with Bowen isn't so much what occurs at the end of Jon XIII. My issue is more Jon I- the beginning of Jon XIII. Repeatedly, this is a man who keeps wanting to fight the hypothetical and goes out of his way to be useless. He's raised a few legitimate points ("how are we going to feed these wildlings") but never, ever has he offered any sort of advice or solution that he'd find a suitable compromise and be willing to work forward from (Yarwyck is the one who has a few good ideas, by contrast). We get it, Bowen-- you hate the fact that Stannis is there, and you hate the fact that wildlings are being relocated in the Gift. But then it strains credulity that he won't take the issue of the Others seriously, and won't help Jon come up with ways to mitigate the food crisis and whatever else he keeps going on about (he's even insubordinate on a few occasions when Jon asks him for real numbers and he replies sarcastically).

He basically set himself up as someone who shouldn't be reasoned with. I think the end of the chapter would have looked a lot different if Jon had been able to level with Bowen and others about the dilemmas Rams' letter present. Tormund shouldn't be Jon's most useful confidante; that's supposed to be Bowen and Co.'s job. By alienating Jon like this, clinging to counterproductive ways, it pretty much invites Jon to bypass the Watchmen in favor of Tormund and the wildlings, who have been the ones willing to work with Jon.

[sifth]

A man who committed treason and a fool too. The Watch has a right to defend itself after.

[dread pirate davos]

I don't disagree with this broadly, but I still find him to be fairly useless.

Ironically, my major issue with Bowen isn't so much what occurs at the end of Jon XIII. My issue is more Jon I- the beginning of Jon XIII. Repeatedly, this is a man who keeps wanting to fight the hypothetical and goes out of his way to be useless. He's raised a few legitimate points ("how are we going to feed these wildlings") but never, ever has he offered any sort of advice or solution that he'd find a suitable compromise and be willing to work forward from (Yarwyck is the one who has a few good ideas, by contrast). We get it, Bowen-- you hate the fact that Stannis is there, and you hate the fact that wildlings are being relocated in the Gift. But then it strains credulity that he won't take the issue of the Others seriously, and won't help Jon come up with ways to mitigate the food crisis and whatever else he keeps going on about (he's even insubordinate on a few occasions when Jon asks him for real numbers and he replies sarcastically).

He basically set himself up as someone who shouldn't be reasoned with. I think the end of the chapter would have looked a lot different if Jon had been able to level with Bowen and others about the dilemmas Rams' letter present. Tormund shouldn't be Jon's most useful confidante; that's supposed to be Bowen and Co.'s job. By alienating Jon like this, clinging to counterproductive ways, it pretty much invites Jon to bypass the Watchmen in favor of Tormund and the wildlings, who have been the ones willing to work with Jon.

I agree that he makes poor choices but I think the lack of cooperation between them is both their faults. I really like Jon and the decisions he makes but I think he takes his experiences beyond the wall for granted. He's lived with wildlings and seems to.overlook.the fact that for a lot.of.people the watch was for defending the realm from.wildlings for a long time. Moreover I'm sure at some point Jon gives up trying to explain his.reasoning to them.

[butterbumps!]

I agree that he makes poor choices but I think the lack of cooperation between them is both their faults. I really like Jon and the decisions he makes but I think he takes his experiences beyond the wall for granted. He's lived with wildlings and seems to.overlook.the fact that for a lot.of.people the watch was for defending the realm from.wildlings for a long time. Moreover I'm sure at some point Jon gives up trying to explain his.reasoning to them.

Well, that's what's really bizarre about this. Jon doesn't give up trying to explain these things. Jon XI involved a major speech/ consensus building session, and in the middle of Jon XIII, Jon's still trying to explain these things to Bowen. Jon's explained this stuff in pretty major detail. Besides-- Bowen was at CB when those wights attacked back in aGoT, so it's not like the idea of wights is some mystical improbability. It's a very tangible issue.

What's even more bizarre is that each time they talk about these things, Bowen refuses to engage whatsoever. Like, he won't say, "ok, I hate this idea. But I recognize that it's happening (and note: Stannis' arrival and the wildling relocation are Stannis' inevitabilities; Jon's not the one spearheading this), so let's figure out how to A. mitigate the damage that Stannis' being here will cause and B. come up with a solution to get the amount of food we need." I don't find this excusable. With very rare exception (it seems like Jon doesn't tell his men about the bank loan), the communication breakdown is always on Bowen's end.

To top it off, he's homophobic, so that really pisses me off too.

[Ingelheim]

A coward.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

An idiot, coward and fool of giant proportions, trying to kill the LC in front of his supporters. The guy's a dead man walking.

[dread pirate davos]

Well, that's what's really bizarre about this. Jon doesn't give up trying to explain these things. Jon XI involved a major speech/ consensus building session, and in the middle of Jon XIII, Jon's still trying to explain these things to Bowen. Jon's explained this stuff in pretty major detail. Besides-- Bowen was at CB when those wights attacked back in aGoT, so it's not like the idea of wights is some mystical improbability. It's a very tangible issue.

What's even more bizarre is that each time they talk about these things, Bowen refuses to engage whatsoever. Like, he won't say, "ok, I hate this idea. But I recognize that it's happening (and note: Stannis' arrival and the wildling relocation are Stannis' inevitabilities; Jon's not the one spearheading this), so let's figure out how to A. mitigate the damage that Stannis' being here will cause and B. come up with a solution to get the amount of food we need." I don't find this excusable. With very rare exception (it seems like Jon doesn't tell his men about the bank loan), the communication breakdown is always on Bowen's end.

To top it off, he's homophobic, so that really pisses me off too.

With the experiences beyond the wall I meant with the wildlings, I find his lack of worry about the others odd. Sorry you're right I took his lack of explanation for the bank loan and conflated with the other issues.

A coward.

He's a lot of things but I wouldn't call him a coward, he fought the sweeper at the bridge of skulls despite being a steward and attacked Jon while surrounded by Jon's allies, including a giant.

[fuem]

I guess he could join the NW and take the black o wait