Are Jon and Dani twins? (R+L=J+D)

[Amris]

I personally think that's the case.

The main reasons I am thinking that are:

A) Jon's und Dani's stories mirror each other throughout the books - GRRM seems to like a symmetry here.

B The title is 'A Song of Ice and Fire' and Jon and Dani seem to represent these two elements

C) Alfie Allen supposedly said GRRM told him the question of Jon's parents involves a bit of a Luke Skywalker situation

Now I know there are counterveiling arguments. Especially the one that Dani's parentage seems to be totally clear and uncontroversial.

But: Is it really so clear? Or has GRRM successfully thrown smoke grenades to prevent us from asking that very question?

Things may be far less clear than we think:

- Do we know Dani's real age?

Not really. All we know is what Dani thinks is her age - and she's heard it from Viserys. The unreliable narrator in play. Even according to the official party line Jon and Dani aren't that far apart agewise. Less than a year. Someone may have faked the birth dates to put distance between Jon and Dani. As to who and why - I'll speculate further down.

- Do we know Dani's parents?

Same - not really. Again we only know what Dani has been told by Viserys (her first chapter on AGoT). Unreliable narrator. May be true - nor not. We haven't seen or heard a single real first-hand witness who can actually confirm that the official party line (Aerys and Rhaella as Dani's parents) is true. Its all second or third-hand reports. Everyone seems to just 'know' it - in other words have heard it and never questioned it, Dani herself included. All the people who might have witnessed Dani's actual birth are conveniently dead.

Now - if one questions the official party line there are some things that seem unlikely:

The official line goes as follows: Dani is supposed to be the daughter of king Aerys II and queen Rhaella and born nine months after Rhaella's flight from King's Landing where Rhaella supposedly got raped by Aerys on the night of her departure. Rhaella wasn't visibly pregnant when fleeing King's Landing.

That leads us to conclude: No one has witnessed Rhaella being pregnant in KL - since she didn't look that way when she fled. And all witnesses who might have seen Rhaella on Dragonstone are safely dead.

And: We are to believe that Aerys managed to impregnate his wife on the very night of her flight from KL. Is that possible? Well, yes. But likely? I would say not very. Also consider Rhaella's age: According to the wiki Rhaella was born between 235 AC and 246 AC. Dany supposedly was born in 284 AC. So Aerys supposedly impregnated Rhaella in 283 or so AC when she was between 37 and 48 years of age. Now that's not impossible either - but again - not so likely. And with supposedly just one 'try' (that rape). Women at 37 already aren't as fertile as in younger years. Not to speak of 48 ... And according to the wiki Viserys was 9 or 10 years older than Daenerys. So we are to believe that Aerys who hadn't managed to have another child with Rhaella for near ten years - on the very night of Rhaella's departure - and with Rhaella in her late fertile years (at best) - suddenly manages to?

I don't know. To me that sounds fishy.

So - I think the question of Dani's parentage is less clear than one might assume and the possibility of her being Jon's twin is at least theoretically there.

That doesn't mean its actually the case of course.

However I would like to point out that there are some hints that may make this scenario a little more likely:

- First we have A), B and C) above. Jon and Dani as twins just would seem - geometrically fitting so to speak.

- Then we have Lyanna's 'bed of blood'. Yes, Lyanna could have died giving birth to Jon alone. But if she had given birth to twins a death in childbed would have been even more possible.

- Furthermore we have Ned's shocked reaction in AGoT to any suggestion of sending assassins after Daenerys. Again I admit this could be explained by Ned's honorable personality and his background of having found Rhaegar's murdered children after the sack of KL - but then again - if Dani was Lyanna's daughter and covered by Ned's promise - then Ned's horrified reaction to the assassination plans would make even more sense.

- We have the Ashara Dayne riddle. Why did Ashara disappear after Ned's visit? I propose that this could be explained by Ned handing Dani to Ashara and asking her to keep her safe (or bring her to Dragonstone) while keeping Jon himself. Why would Ned keep Jon and not Dani? Because Dani looks like a Targ. Something a little hard to explain to Catelyn and whoever happens to look at Dani. Dani with her looks could not really have been passed as Ned's bastard. Also 2 bastards would have been a little hard to swallow for Catelyn.

- we have the blue rose theme: Lyanna is being associated with blue roses. Dani's vision in the HotU (Blue rose in a crack at the ice wall) seems to associate Jon with a blue rose AND the film series season 4 episode 2 has Daario give Dani a blue rose which seems to associate Dani with blue roses also.

Now the question why Dani's real parentage would be hidden and she being passed off as Aerys' and Rhaella's daughter can be answered too:

If Dani is Lyanna's daughter Ned could never admit that. First there is the promise to Lyanna (whateever it may have been). And then there is the fact that Robert Baratheon was a fanatical Targ hater and Dani's survival (exactly like Jon's) would have been highly doubtful had Robert heard that she was Rhaegar's daughter. By the same token Ned if he defended her (or Jon) would have been in danger of being branded a traitor. So new identities had to be found for both kids.

So I propose:

- Ned found Lyanna with two babies - boy and girl

- The boy looked like a Stark, the girl like a Targ

- Ned couldn't pass the Targ off as his own child so handed her off to Ashara. Also Ned couldn't bring Cat two bastards so had to pass one on.

- Ned took the Stark along and claimed him as his bastard son

- Ashara somehow brought the girl baby to Dragonstone

- Rhaella and Ashara came up with the cover story of the girl being Rhaella's daughter and told that to Viserys. That provided house Targaryen with a new princess which was a nice thing to have.

Alternatively Viserys came up with that story because it placed him before Dani in the order of succession

- Rhaella somehow died - or not

- in the future Dany and Jon may meet in the Lands of Always Winter and together bring the White Walkers down

Thank you for reading!

Feel free to disagree. I happily admit I may be totally on the wrong ship here. I hope you had some fun with the theory anyway.

Or with ripping it apart.

[LordStoneheart]

easiest answer, no. timeline is impossible unless GRRM directly lied to us, which he never seems to do.

[MoIaF]

easiest answer, no. timeline is impossible unless GRRM directly lied to us, which he never seems to do.

Why is this theory popping up so much?

Jon is 8 to 9 months older than Dany as per GRRM

[SeanF]

Jon is some months older than Dany.

Nobody, in-universe, doubts that Dany is Aerys' daughter.

[LordStoneheart]

Why is this theory popping up so much?

My theory? ;) Lately, major news outlets (not reputable ones, but popular...) have picked up some of the standard theories (RLJ, LannisTargs) so now there's a need to go more outlandish with them.

[Burning down the House]

No.

[MoIaF]

My theory? ;) Lately, major news outlets (not reputable ones, but popular...) have picked up some of the standard theories (RLJ, LannisTargs) so now there's a need to go more outlandish with them.

Ah, I see. :D You know, I think the forum should have the timeline as a pined thread. It would save so much time and board space.

[LordStoneheart]

Ah, I see. :D You know, I think the forum should have the timeline as a pined thread. It would save so much time and board space.

hehehe... maybe.

Well, I don't want to be too negative here, but I'm quite positive that GRRM has never, or rarely, told a direct lie to the audience about later events, truths, and mysteries. Like, in one SSM he was directly asked if R&L married and if Jon was legit and he just said "well you know I'm not going to get into all that..."

He could easily say "Lyanna is not Jon's mother," or something like that but instead he favors his vague answers. So I take him directly at his word about Jon and Dany's birthdays.

[SeanF]

Ah, I see. :D You know, I think the forum should have the timeline as a pined thread. It would save so much time and board space.

I've occasionally heard the theory advanced that Rhaegar is Dany's father, by Rhaella.

[Mladen]

Why is this theory popping up so much?

I swear to God, I have no idea. Especially having in mind that Dany's birth was such public event.

[MoIaF]

hehehe... maybe.

Well, I don't want to be too negative here, but I'm quite positive that GRRM has never, or rarely, told a direct lie to the audience about later events, truths, and mysteries. Like, in one SSM he was directly asked if R&L married and if Jon was legit and he just said "well you know I'm not going to get into all that..."

He could easily say "Lyanna is not Jon's mother," or something like that but instead he favors his vague answers. So I take him directly at his word about Jon and Dany's birthdays.

I don't think he'd lie either. He might change his mind about future events but he's not going to lie about something he's worked out.

I've occasionally heard the theory advanced that Rhaegar is Dany's father, by Rhaella.

I've seen this and I find it so disturbing. Its so wrong on so many levels

[MoIaF]

I swear to God, I have no idea. Especially having in mind that Dany's birth was such public event.

Exactly, not to say anything of the logistic of separating twins from Draginstone when Stannis was about to invade. It makes no sense.

[SeanF]

I don't think he'd lie either. He might change his mind about future events but he's not going to lie about something he's worked out. [/font

I've seen this and I find it so disturbing. Its so wrong on so many levels

I'm pretty sure that even the Targaryens didn't practise parent-child incest (not officially, anyway).

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

No, Dany and Jon are not twins..

As to Rhaella's age: While factually, the most precise thing that can be stated is that she was born between 235AC and 246AC, those are the years using the absolute minimums. Meaning, Rhaella would have definitly not been younger than 13 when she gave birth to Rhaegar, though it is most logically and likely that she was a few years older. Because there is no way to proof how old she actually was, all that can be stated for her latest possible year of birth is that she would have had the minimum age of 13 in 259AC, bringing you to the 246AC. Most likely and logically, she was born at least a few years before.

The 235AC had been calculated from Jaehaerys' age. Jaehaerys would have been at least 13 years old when Rhaella was born, though he most likely was older, as there was no rush to have a child, and Jaehaerys married for love, which sounds like he married at an older age than 13. So while the most exact year that can be given for Rhaella's minimum birth year is 235AC (when Jaehaerys is 13), she will have been born at least a few years later.

Which places her birth roughly in the middle, around 240AC. Which would have made her in her early 40ties at Daenerys' birth.

As to the time-gap between Viserys and Dany (and Rhaegar and Viserys):

There are plenty of possibilities as to why there was such a long time between Rhaegar and Viserys. These two boys are the two children who survived their cradle.. How many miscarriages did Rhaella have in between? How many stillbirths? How many children who survived only for a few days or so? That easily creates time-gaps.

Viserys' birth will have occured closely to the Defiance at Duskendale.. Which was the event that raised Aerys' paranoia, and which was the beginning of his true madness. That the sexual activities between Aerys and Rhaella became less after this event seems highly likely.

And again, even here miscarriages, stillbirths and children dying in the cradle could have taken place here as well.

Would one night of rape be enough for Aerys to father a child on his wife? Yes, of course. All it takes is the timing to be right, for an egg cell to be available.

- Ned found Lyanna with two babies - boy and girl

- The boy looked like a Stark, the girl like a Targ

- Ned couldn't pass the Targ off as his own child so handed her off to Ashara. Also Ned couldn't bring Cat two bastards so had to pass one on.

- Ned took the Stark along and claimed him as his bastard son

- Ashara somehow brought the girl baby to Dragonstone

- Rhaella and Ashara came up with the cover story of the girl being Rhaella's daughter and told that to Viserys. That provided house Targaryen with a new princess which was a nice thing to have.

Alternatively Viserys came up with that story because it placed him before Dani in the order of succession

- Rhaella somehow died - or not

- in the future Dany and Jon may meet in the Lands of Always Winter and together bring the White Walkers down

Viserys would be in front of Dany in the line of succession no matter what scenario you look at. First all the males, then all the females.

And why would Viserys lie, about Dany's age?

[Ingelheim]

No.

[Rhaegal Targaryen]

Just a big no GRRM said that Jon is 8-9 months older than Dany.

[The Bastard of Walton]

I have to go against the "Twins" theory, it comes across as to Star Wars.

Plus that Viserysremembers Daenerys birth & had been with her from that point onwards makes it even more unlikely.

That being said, I never thought Ned would lose his head, so anything is possible until we read otherwise.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

Actually, the people saying there's an SSM proving Jon is 8~9 months older than Dany are wrong. What George said was that their age difference is closer to 8~9 months than it is to a year. Funny thing, but 0 months is closer to 8~9 months than it is to a year.

[WeaselPie]

There are plenty of SSM's wherein GRRM "tells the truth" without telling the truth.

Example: "Why, the Hound is dead, and Sansa may be dead as well. There's only Alayne Stone."

We know Sansa isn't dead. there is no "may be" about it. And we all know the Hound/Gravedigger theories, but you can put that aside. Sansa had a metaphorical death and was reborn as Alayne Stone. He wasn't lying, he just wasn't telling the full truth.

With all the themes about rebirth and hidden identities in ASOIAF, it's no wonder GRRM would answer SSM's from the POV of the characters in order not to spoil. And I don't think I have to point out that even the Appendix "lies" on occasion.

Dany being Rhaegar and Lyanna's child would be a welcome twist, and it's not impossible.

[francisco of house avila]

Its caled ice and fire becouce jon is born of ice and fire it has nothing to do with dany though it woud be prety cool if it had a triple meaning