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Pondering thoughts on the meaning of Lady's death and it's affect on Sansa.


Duke-of-Kaisa

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The symbolism in ASOIAF is by all accounts huge and important. For every dream and action by a character, thought must go to the possible repercussions and meaning for future events. The sigils on the banners and house words are similarly important and seem to shape the very nature of the characters as well as providing insights into the history of the house involved.

Early in AGOT Jon and Robb Stark find a dead mother dire wolf - killed by the antler of a stag. 5 regular pups are found then as they are leaving Jon 'hears' the silent albino pup. The dire wolves are the sigil of house Stark and the dire wolf pups - 3 boys and 2 girls are seen to be meant to be for the Stark children (3 boys and 2 girls) and of course the albino for Jon Snow the 'bastard'.

The symbolism of the dire wolf being killed by the stag is also important when considering that the kings party (Baratheon who's sigil is the stag) are on their way north to call Eddard and his daughters south to court. This clearly symbolises the demise of the head of the Stark family (Ned) with association to the Baratheon's. (It was Ned's denial of Joffrey being a Baratheon after the death of Robert that led to his beheading).

Before the procession gets underway Bran is pushed off the tower window and is paralysed by the fall. His dire wolf protects him from a further murder attempt.

The connection between the dire wolves and the Stark children (and Jon Snow with Ghost) is quickly seen with Bran, Arya and Jon all having 'wolf dreams' which Bran later develops into conscious warging of Summer. Jon Snow is less aware of his warging with Ghost however he clearly subconsciously does so as seen when he knows Ghost has made a kill as he "tastes blood in his mouth" etc. Rickon clearly becomes quite feral between getting his dire wolf and Robb calling his banners. He becomes fearful and attacks other people for no known reason and his dire wolf Shaggydog likewise appears feral and out of control. Clearly he is warging Shaggydog and sharing his experiences/fears and the connection affects both of their behaviours - even if his warging is not verified in the books. Lady is seen as the tamest/gentlest of all the wolves as befits the nature of Sansa who is a proper little lady and Lady's 'master'.

On the road south to Kings Landing, Eddard's party and Robert's find themselves at loggerheads when Joffrey is bitten by Nymeria (Arya's direwolf) when Nymeria was protecting Arya. Arya sends Nymeria away (to prowl the river lands) to protect her from the kings/queens wroth over the attack. Unfortunately Lady (who did no wrong) is consequently sentenced to be put to death in Nymeria's place as punishment. Lord Eddard decides that as a creature of the North it is right that he swing the sword that kills the wolf rather than have the southron king's headsman do the deed.

Sansa is clearly devasted over the death of her direwolf and angry at Arya for the fact that it was her fight with the prince and Nymeria's subsequent involvement in the fight (and further disappearance) that culminated in Lady being sentenced to death. She is angry at her father for not refusing to allow Lady to be killed and further for swinging the sword. At this point a 'barrier' is formed between her and her Stark family. From this point onwards, she acts against her father in betraying his plans to the queen and is openly hostile to Arya. She always maintains that Robb is a traitor and does not even think about Jon Snow.

"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives." This quote Arya often thinks about, one her father told her. However I don't think Arya is the 'lone wolf' in this scenario. She still maintains a mental link with Nymeria through her nightly wolf dreams, the wolves can sense each other, and through this connection Bran is able to speak to Jon, maybe at some stage he will speak to Arya? However Sansa no longer has a direwolf, and as such is completely cut off from the rest of her family. Her wolf is dead, does that mean she is fated to die, or is she never to reunite with her family as she is no longer protected by the direwolf?

We see her take on the persona of Alayne Stone. Here she seems to change quite significantly in nature and persona just as her name is changed, she becomes harder, more ruthless. We also see her mother Lady Catelyn (Tully - sigil = fish) die and she is resurrected as 'Lady Stoneheart' who's persona is also significantly different to what it was in her life as Catelyn, she is hard, without mercy and on a vendetta for vengeance. Can it be that 'Sansa Stark' died with her direwolf? What will Sansa/Alayne Stone stand for once she is free of the clutches of her captivity, or will true death be her freedom?

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Sansa is not like Catelyn in personality. She's more like Ned, if anything. Arya is most like Catelyn in personality out of the Stark children. Obviously that doesn't mean they are the same, but they are far more alike than Sansa and Cat, or Bran and Cat. They even both think the same thing about having a hole/empty place where their heart used to be - Catelyn in ACOK after she hears about Bran and Rickon's "deaths", Arya in ASOS after the RW and later in AFFC. If unCat is a reflection of one of her children's life path and personality, it's Arya.

And I generally don't understand your argument...you think Sansa will go against her family because she has been forced to take a new persona and to start becoming more ruthless? *cough* Arya *cough*

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What I meant by Sansa being most like Catelyn was that she was a little lady which you can't deny Catelyn as being even if Catelyn does develop and become quite fearsome towards the end of her life prior to Stoneheart. Arya was always described as being more like Lyanna and more wild.

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Although I have no doubts that Lady's death was symbolic, I sincerely believe that this isn't what it supposed to mean. Basically, if GRRM wanted Sansa dead, he could have killed her thousand time already and story would go on. Lady's death symbolized forced domestication of Sansa's spirit and leaving her defenseless in KL.






She always maintains that Robb is a traitor and does not even think about Jon Snow.





You do know what lie is, and Sansa's talk of Robb as traitor is always in front of Joffrey or those that can harm her is most definitely a lie. She never actually believes that, and Sansa maintains to be strongly connected to the memory of her family. The wolf symbolism, Northern folklore, the nostalgia in her all suggests how Sansa feels about her origin and family.



I also fail to see a parallel between Lady Stoneheart and Alayne, especially in line you suggest.






What I meant by Sansa being most like Catelyn was that she was a little lady which you can't deny Catelyn as being even if Catelyn does develop and become quite fearsome towards the end of her life prior to Stoneheart. Arya was always described as being more like Lyanna and more wild.





Being brought up as a lady simply speaks npthing of her personality which was your argument. As Annara said, Sansa is the "quiet she-wolf" of the family, mimicking Ned compared to the wild Brandon and Lyanna.


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In the nicest and most respectful way possible, I'd like to say that I find faults in a few of your points. If you do some searching around here, I think you'll find quite a lot of analysis on Sansa in all these very issues, and I'll lead to a very great essay that touches on some of these.



First off, Sansa only calls Robb a traitor to survive, but internally she is hoping for his victory and wishing desperately to escape KL. She plans it out with Dontos for a long time and takes the Tyrell offer, both things done to escape from the Lannisters. She never truly sided against her family or with the Lannisters but for a brief period of time and regretted it instantly.



Arya and Catelyn are much more alike, which is the genius of how GRRM wrote the two sisters. And think about what their stories are in the current time, Catelyn as Stoneheart and Arya as No One. Both are very focused on revenge and quite ruthless and at times scary. Really, the parallels between Arya and Cat are crazy good, more often than Sansa and Cat, though both girls definitely take after both parents.



The wolf loss idea is often brought up but I think you'll be pleasently surprised on how much "Stark" Sansa is. Many posters draw the connection because of the death of Lady but many also miss how similar Sansa is to Ned and how Cat's influence, even if not "Stark" is still positive for her. Sansa is confirmed to be a warg, but I think the concensus is that her abilities are stunted but not absent. As for her connection to Lyanna, she may not look like her but she is definitely a lot like her. Start here, and just look out for many more awesome write ups on Sansa. She is very northern and very southern, if the two are really so different, and most importantly, a complex character. I hope your reading offers some great insight.


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I think it's quite obvious she is lying to save herself. Her chapters in aCoK and the end of aGoT make it pretty clear how much she regrets and hates being with the Lannisters.



As for her not being a "true Stark..." well I think her inner monologue is filled with the contrary



"I am not your daughter , I am lord Eddard and lady Catelyn's ,the blood of Winterfell -she thought "


and this



Plus... what exactly is a "true Stark?"


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Sansa is not like Catelyn in personality. She's more like Ned, if anything. Arya is most like Catelyn in personality out of the Stark children. Obviously that doesn't mean they are the same, but they are far more alike than Sansa and Cat, or Bran and Cat. They even both think the same thing about having a hole/empty place where their heart used to be - Catelyn in ACOK after she hears about Bran and Rickon's "deaths", Arya in ASOS after the RW and later in AFFC. If unCat is a reflection of one of her children's life path and personality, it's Arya.

I've seen this statement a couple of times by now, and since I'm really interested in this - I'd like to ask for elaboration on this subject.

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Ok, fair enough, but I certainly don't see anywhere where her agenda might help her family. We are given the impression that she is lying all those times she says her father and brother are traitors, but no where does she actually refute it. I think her journey is at more of a parallel to the Starks, perhaps not working against them, but also not for them either. She only furthers her own ambitions in her own way, call it survival if you will and captivity, but I don't see her being a true Stark.

Beside the obvious question what makes a true Stark, thing is that you have completely missed the inner thoughts of Sansa and swapped them with the mask she had to maintain in order to survive. Basically, my question is, what is more important, lies she said to Joffrey or her own emotions? Furthermore, it is plainly wrong that she never refutes that her father and brother are traitors. In AGOT, Cersei needed a lot of persuasion and pressure with those vultures of Small Council to corner Sansa and stop her repetition of how her father is not a traitor. Then, I have to ask what Arya's or Bran's or Rickon's agenda have with helping their families.

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Stark's are strong believers in honour. How can lying with every second breath be considered honourable? Right from the moment of Nymeria's biting Joffrey, she refused to tell the truth. Surely she should see by now that lying is not necessarily going to better your situation (eg. Ned being beheaded after lying about Joffrey's legitimacy, and perhaps if she had of spoken up and told the whole truth about the Joffrey incident, perhaps Lady may not have been killed?)

By this definition, does this mean Ned is not a Stark?

"He lived his lies for fourteen years."

He even supports lying for a good cause at some point, so I think he'd be proud of Sansa for trying to lie to survive. After all, that's what he did. And he died because of it. A good lie, though, for it was to try and protect her.

And it's actually quite the misconception that Starks are strong believers in honor. The Arryns are strong believers in that. Their words are "As High As Honor." And Jon Arryn raised Ned for a while. So it could be said that Ned is not a Stark, but an Arryn, for he by his own thoughts and words is not like his brother or sister.

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I've seen this statement a couple of times by now, and since I'm really interested in this - I'd like to ask for elaboration on this subject.

Arya is basically, as I like to say, love child of Brandon Stark and Catelyn Tully. She shows great pragmatism just as Catelyn, both have shown disregard to certain social norms to protect those they love. Furthermore, Lady Stoneheart parallels Arya's sense of hollowness in AFFC. Both are vindictive and sometimes show signs of cruelty you haven't noticed in Ned. Add that to the willfulness of wolf's blood Arya shares with Brandon, and you basically have little of Ned in her.

Stark's are strong believers in honour. How can lying with every second breath be considered honourable? Right from the moment of Nymeria's biting Joffrey, she refused to tell the truth. Surely she should see by now that lying is not necessarily going to better your situation (eg. Ned being beheaded after lying about Joffrey's legitimacy, and perhaps if she had of spoken up and told the whole truth about the Joffrey incident, perhaps Lady may not have been killed?)

Starks are not about honor, and even if they are (and they most certainly are not), Ned spent the last decade and the half lying to everyone, so it kinda bring this whole argument to the ground. And Sansa didn't lie at the Trident trial, she pleaded the 5th - she didn't say anything. And Lady would have been dead anyway. Arya didn't chased Nymeria off because she thought the truth matters. The truth didn't matter and Robert knew the truth all along, as he said to Ned.

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Stark's are strong believers in honour.

No, they're not. "High as honor" is the Arryn motto. Ned is obsessed with honor most likely because he was, for a lot of his childhood and youth, brought up by Jon Arryn. The Stark motto is "Winter is coming". Nothing to do with honor. The old kings of winter are mentioned as "hard men", no mention of honor, again. Lord Rickard Stark was very ambitious, that much we know of him - we don't know know if he was particularly "honorable". Brandon and Lyanna were willful and wild and stubborn, that much we know about them; no mention of "honorable". Arya doesn't concern herself with "honor" and she's definitely not a "strong believer in honor". Bran doesn't think about honor since he's a crippled kid with different priorities and concerns. Rickon is a wild child.

How can lying with every second breath be considered honourable? Right from the moment of Nymeria's biting Joffrey, she refused to tell the truth. Surely she should see by now that lying is not necessarily going to better your situation (eg. Ned being beheaded after lying about Joffrey's legitimacy, and perhaps if she had of spoken up and told the whole truth about the Joffrey incident, perhaps Lady may not have been killed?)

You mean, like Ned lying for half of his life about Jon's parentage and what happened with Lyanna? Or lying to Robert on his deathbed to spare his feelings? Or lying about Joffrey's legitimacy, which he never did to save his own life - he did it to save his daughter's life. Just like he lied about Jon to save his nephew's life. How can lying be considered honorable, indeed?

Why are you singling out Sansa, again? Jon lied for months when he was with wildlings. As a LC, he lied about Gilly's baby being Mance's baby and vice versa. He also didn't reveal the fact that Mance was still alive. Arya has been lying all the time since she's been on the run: she's been lying to everyone about her identity since book 1, she lied to the guards about the Weasel Soup to stage a coup, she's lying to her targets such as Raff, she's even lying to her FM mentor, the Kindly Man.

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Clearly you guys have not taken actually understood the question I was putting to you: do you think Lady's death (at the hands of Lord Eddard at the command of Queen Cersie) has any significance on her forced captivity and how has it affected her? The symbolism is quite potent to me... I just want to know what others think, as I was PONDERING the implications!

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Well, Mladen answered you about the symbolism of Lady's death in his first post and I also touched on it. I just also pointed out the faults I found in the rest of your post. I think that's fair since you put them forth in conjunction with it. We did understand your point but you have to realize that if you wanted a simple answer, it should be a simple question. Unfortunately, you happened to include many misconceptions of Sansa's character arc. They are very common, and I don't fault you for them, but putting them in your OP does invite critique.



Sansa does feel guilty for her choices and it doesn't take her saying "winter is coming" to show how much her identity is shaped by Winterfell. She declares it herself, which I also provided. I think it would be good for you to do a good reread of Sansa's arc or just some research around here while keeping her Stark identity in mind.



Ned being a man of honor comes from Jon Arryn. We never hear about the honorable Rickard or Brandon Stark. We hear about Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. Starks besides Ned don't have a real connections to honor. The Tullys and Arryns do.


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I know very well that the Arryn's motto is "High as Honour" and that the Stark's motto is "Winter is Comming". However it is stated so many times throughout the series that Ned was a man of honour and Jon Snow thinks a lot about honour. I am also aware that Ned lied about Jon for 14years, but he was sad and felt guilty for that lie. Never does Sansa seem to feel guilty for her lies. They come so easily she doesn't even think when saying them. When does she ever think "winter is comming"? The other Starks, Jon and Catelyn often think this, but never Sansa, except when making her Snow Castle. However I think this is a pointless arguement as clearly you guys have not taken actually understood the question I was putting to you: do you think Lady's death (at the hands of Lord Eddard at the command of Queen Cersie) has any significance on her forced captivity and how has it affected her? The symbolism is quite potent to me... I just want to know what others think, as I was PONDERING the implications!

And Ned is just as every Stark there ever was and there ever will be? He is not, and even the differences in his very own generation has been drawn clearly. Ned is honorable indeed, House Stark is composed of members of which some are honorable and some are not. This sort of generalization is completely wrong. Then you say that she never feels bad about her lies to Joffrey? Does she have to? I mean, your comparison of Sansa lies to Joffrey with Ned's lies is not founded in logic. The winter is coming philosophy is basically Sansa's life in KL, one hit after another. Then, I am sorry, but "she never thinks except..." is way of showing that she does think about it.

This is not pointless argument, but I understand that you want to end it. Now, it did bear significance on her. Lady is not just a pet, she shared a bond with Sansa, and perhaps, only perhaps things would go differently. But, as I have said, Lady's death was forced domestication of Sansa's wolf nature.

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My thoughts are that what happens to the Stark children will happen to the The Direwolves & vice-versor. There fates are inter looked & my personal belief is that Sansa will be killed by a Stark who resembles her Farther (Probably Arya) and will finally return to Winterfell only to be laid to rest in the Crypts.


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I've seen this statement a couple of times by now, and since I'm really interested in this - I'd like to ask for elaboration on this subject.

Well, look at Catelyn's interactions with people, and her inner monologue, and compare them with Sansa's, and with Arya's. Even though she observes the way a lady is supposed to behave and gets involved in politics, Catelyn is a very pragmatic, assertive, down-to-earth and matter-of-fact person. Although she may not always be blunt - she can hold her tongue when it's really inappropriate and damaging to say something (but Arya also learns when to keep her mouth shut), playing nice, stroking people's egos and lying to spare their feelings is not really Cat's thing. Catelyn observes that Sansa was a "lady at three, always eager to please". Catelyn is not a people-pleaser, any more than Arya is. For instance, if Sansa were sent to deal with Renly and Stannis, I can never see her telling them outright that they were acting like silly boys. If Catelyn was dealing with Sweetrobin, I don't think she would have successfully manipulated him by pretending to be weak and helpless and that he was the big strong man, and if she was being unjustly accused by Lysa as Sansa was in ASOS, she would have stuck to her guns to the end and even gotten angry at Lysa's irrationality and the injustice of it all, unlike Sansa, who went from saying it as it is, to trying to assuage the crazy person by apparently agreeing with her (which in that case didn't work out). Catelyn also tends to be cautious and distrust people, unless they are those who are really close to her and that he sees as her family (such as Petyr, her "little brother", one of her blind spots), just like Arya, while Sansa, like Ned, is more prone to assume that everyone is going to be good until they prove otherwise.

Sansa is a dreamer and has a lot of romanticism and idealism (Brienne is similar to her in that respect) that Cat and Arya don't have a lot of patience for. Granted, Arya does start off dreaming of being another warrior queen Nymeria and she does think that knights are there to protect the weak until she sees the reality in ACOK, and Catelyn liked romantic songs as a young girl, but it disappears pretty easily. Catelyn thinks of most songs about chivalry etc. as silly illusions that have nothing to do with reality and thinks with sadness that the young people who dream of glory of war are terribly deluded; that's a more mature version of Arya constantly thinking that this or that (including most songs) is "stupid". Sansa also gets disillusioned, but she is still a dreamer and an optimist at heart, so her mind is constantly recreating reality, to help her deal with her situation: we see in AGOT how bad this can be, when Sansa is making herself blind to what Joffrey and Cersei really are, but we also see later how her this tendency helps her emotionally survive: no matter how bad her situation is, she will hope that Dontos will be a Florian and help her escape; or that she will make Willas love her and they will have a beautiful marriage with puppies and children named Eddard, Bran and Rickon even though she knows the Tyrells are trying to use her; and her mind even creates romanticized fake memories about Sandor kissing her and clings to it; or pushes from memory and ignores the unpleasant memories and reality of Littlefinger's forced kisses; or tries to make herself see Littlefinger as the kind, fatherly "Petyr" that only wears "Littlefinger" as a mask, since she's stuck with him; or fantasizes about Mya Stone and Lothor Brune hooking up, etc. She's gotten thicker-skinned as a result of all that's happened to her ("My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel") but she does not feel the emptiness and despair that Catelyn and Arya feel as a result of their grief:

I take no joy in mead nor meat, and song and laughter have become suspicious strangers to me. I am a creature of grief and dust and bitter longings. There is an empty place within me where my heart was once.

(Catelyn, ACOK)

She could feel the hole inside her every morning when she woke. It wasn’t hunger though sometimes there was that too. It was a hollow place, an emptiness where her heart had been...

(Arya, ASOS)

I have a hole where my heart should be, she thought, and nowhere else to go.

(Arya, AFFC)

Both Catelyn and Arya are strongly concerned with justice. This is where it gets complicated, but the theme of justice and revenge (and justice vs revenge) is strong in both their arcs (though more so in Cat's, since Arya's arc is also one about survival, similar to Sansa's). Sansa also has angry, vengeful thoughts, but they are fleeting and never amount to an obsession or a plan. Catelyn has a strong sense of justice, but her desire to protect her family always comes first, and it's what makes her do her most impulsive and controversial actions. She can even empathize with Cersei, but she admits to Brienne in ACOK: "I want them all dead, Brienne. Theon Greyjoy first, then Jaime Lannister and Cersei and the Imp, every one, every one." However, her actions are the opposite of that: she speaks against revenge, even argues for peace in AGOT, releases Jaime to get her daughters back, even though she hates him; she's against revenge not because of ethical reasons, but because she sees that it's hollow and won't get her her loved ones back, and as long as she thinks she has loved ones to fight for, this is what takes precedence. However, when Catelyn loses her husband and children one by one, she goes insane out of grief and shock just before her death; and as Lady Stoneheart, we see a twisted version of Catelyn who has no hope anymore and little reason or empathy, just this desperate desire for revenge that had been suppressed while she was alive. Arya, on her part, didn't need to lose her life or her mind to become focused on revenge; in normal circumstances, she would have been just protective and concerned with justice/angry at injustice (that's the girl we see acting impulsively trying to protect her friend from the asshole crown prince) and that's still who she is at the core (we see her sympathizing with the abused smallfolk and trying to punish the wrongdoers in ACOK, that's why she had Chyswick killed by Jaqen), but it's been manifesting more and more as a black-and-white worldview and obsession with her "list", which she's been clinging on since as her emotional anchor of sorts; killing these bad people is something she lives for because she can't see anything else to fight for.

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