Pondering thoughts on the meaning of Lady's death and it's affect on Sansa.

[RainGhost]

Lady was killed by Ice and she is buried at Winterfell. That's significant I think. None of the other direwolves are anywhere near Winterfell. That where Sansa's heart is: in Winterfell. You can see how she thinks more and more about Winterfell, e.g. when she builds the snow castle (one of my favourite and saddest scenes in the books).

However, losing Lady meant she was cut off in a way from the Starks, which I think enabled her to survive in KL, to tell all those lies. It could also indicate that she won't be a Stark by the end of the series, as in she will be a married woman (properly married) with a different name but that doesn't mean that she will ever lose her ties to Winterfell.

[Mladen]

However, losing Lady meant she was cut off in a way from the Starks, which I think enabled her to survive in KL, to tell all those lies. It could also indicate that she won't be a Stark by the end of the series, as in she will be a married woman (properly married) with a different name but that doesn't mean that she will ever lose her ties to Winterfell.

So, according to this, Starks are unable to lie, otherwise they are not Stark?

snip

Great post! Love it...

[Annara Snow]

You are not alone, As-U-Wish. Sansa does seem to have less connection with the Starks without her wolf or her wolf dreams. It means she has no protection, as we've seen throughout the series. Some think the Hound can be her protection. I doubt it.

Arya has no protection from a wolf, either, since Nymeria is miles away. And yet she got protection from various people who have helped her survive for different reasons - from Yoren, from Jaqen, from Sandor. So, I'm not sure where you're getting that from.

Of course, the direwolves couldn't be at court because that would have messed with the plot. But if we're speaking metaphorical meanings, I'd say that the direwolves primarily represent the children's instincts. For instance, Robb does not heed the warnings of Grey Wolf against the Westerling situation and the Freys locks him so he wouldn't interfere, and that doesn't go well for either of them. Sandor is indeed strongly connected with Lady in Sansa's story - on at least two occasions: she whispers "Lady" when she goes to her room during BW and she then finds Sandor there; after she wakes up from her dream (in which Sandor takes Tyrion's place in the marriage bed), she finds the old blind dog she had previously bonded with and says: "I wish you were Lady". At least two scenes between Sansa and Sandor feature Sansa's reactions being explicitly described as instinctive: some instinct makes her touch his shoulder and comfort him when he first tells her of his burns; and some instinct makes her cup his cheek during BW when he's having his breakdown and crying. He represents and appeals to a part of Sansa that she is not fully conscious of, an instinctive and primal part of her, that the direwolves are closely connected to, and that Sansa has been repressing more than her siblings, due to her role as a lady in court and her position as a hostage who has to keep her head down.

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

Thanks Red Wedding Cake. glad to know some people see the disconnection that I see. I hope that the hound is her protector/saviour. StannisForKing299AL, I had not thought of that, I can DEFINATELY see that now you mention it. :-)

[Red Priest]

Ladys death was foreshadowing if Neds death.

Killed by Ice at Cerseis command.

It was major foreshadowing to Neds fate.

Wolfs don't last long in the south, was the message of Ladies death.

Eh no, it was Joff's command. Cersei actually planned to send him to the Wall.

It did probably foreshadow the fact that Sansa's actions would indirectly lead to her father's death. In both cases her personal vanity and selfishness cause her harm which ultimately leads her reduced to the social status of a 'bastard'. Not attacking her but just pointing out a few hard truths.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I am not going to contribute much in the actual subject of the thread and likely my post is a little bit off-topic, but I want to say that IMO, Ned is honourable because of Arryn education is a misconception and contradicted by the book facts.

Stark's are strong believers in honour. How can lying with every second breath be considered honourable? Right from the moment of Nymeria's biting Joffrey, she refused to tell the truth. Surely she should see by now that lying is not necessarily going to better your situation (eg. Ned being beheaded after lying about Joffrey's legitimacy, and perhaps if she had of spoken up and told the whole truth about the Joffrey incident, perhaps Lady may not have been killed?)

First of all, I don't agree with this either; There is not any trait that defines all members of a family. It is true that family members are taught certain values that are viewed as important and pass from parents to children but that does not mean that all members or all generations will comport to those. One has only to look at the Lannisters, what was their reputation under Tytos and then under Tywin to see that a unique and unifying characterization does not hold.

However, in the same vain, it's wrong to say that Starks are not about honour or that Arryns are all about honour.

By the way, honourable does not mean good and gentle. It's more like keeping to one's word. A person can be honourable and simultaneously very hard and harsh. I don't think that the Starks, historically, have a reputation of dishonourable although they do have a reputation as hard.

And it's actually quite the misconception that Starks are strong believers in honor. The Arryns are strong believers in that. Their words are "As High As Honor." And Jon Arryn raised Ned for a while. So it could be said that Ned is not a Stark, but an Arryn, for he by his own thoughts and words is not like his brother or sister.

Starks are not about honor, and even if they are (and they most certainly are not), Ned spent the last decade and the half lying to everyone, so it kinda bring this whole argument to the ground. And Sansa didn't lie at the Trident trial, she pleaded the 5th - she didn't say anything. And Lady would have been dead anyway. Arya didn't chased Nymeria off because she thought the truth matters. The truth didn't matter and Robert knew the truth all along, as he said to Ned.

No, they're not. "High as honor" is the Arryn motto. Ned is obsessed with honor most likely because he was, for a lot of his childhood and youth, brought up by Jon Arryn. The Stark motto is "Winter is coming". Nothing to do with honor. The old kings of winter are mentioned as "hard men", no mention of honor, again. Lord Rickard Stark was very ambitious, that much we know of him - we don't know know if he was particularly "honorable". Brandon and Lyanna were willful and wild and stubborn, that much we know about them; no mention of "honorable". Arya doesn't concern herself with "honor" and she's definitely not a "strong believer in honor". Bran doesn't think about honor since he's a crippled kid with different priorities and concerns. Rickon is a wild child.

To the point now: why Ned's honour has nothing to do with Arryn upbringing.

Simply, because Jon Arryn prioritized pragmatic matters of reality to what honour requires, in contrast to Ned's consistent behaviour.

It was Jon Arryns suggestion (and insistence) that Robert marries Cersei so that Tywin Lannister is tied to the new regime, thus practically rewarding his (very specific and not so honourable) conduct during the rebellion. Compare this to Ned's urge that justice must be done...

Later on, Jon Arryn went to Dorne to settle things there. No talk of jutice... He only cared to make sure of Dorne's inaction with the compromise that Robert would not set foot there. Not even secondary culprits as scapegoats like Lorch and/or the Mountain were punished. Not so honourable conduct from Jon Arryn's part, only a pragmatic attitude to strengthen the new regime.

On the contrary, Ned Stark has acted repeatedly chosing the path of honour instead of the pragmatic, the price being puting himself and his family in danger and paying for it. Not so Jon Arryn, I say.

A word in a Hose motto is nothing but that: a word. Actions are what matter.

Not to mention that often, honour is a vague and contradictory. Obey your king, that's supposed to be the honourable thing for a kingsguard...

[ARYa_Nym]

Arya never wished to be Nymeria. She named her wolf that but that doesn't mean she wished to be Nymeria. Nymeria was a queen and Arya has expressed no political aspirations. Nymeria was a battle commander. Arya has expressed no interest in battle tactics. That's something the boys were taught not the girls but Arya doesn't want to learn it. Nymeria married strategically for her people.Arya refused to even if it would achieve vengeance better than killing people whose deaths does not help House Stark.

I don't think Arya is a strong marker for justice since she repeatedly ignores the law and there are other things about her that isn't really justice. Dunsen is on her list only for taking Gendry's helm. That's not justice. That's like when she wanted to kill that woman for cheating her. She's desired to kill people for flimsy reasons. She killed Dareon without a trial. Catelyn still shows a semblance of justice when she conducts trials in her undead version. Arya did not care about Dareon's side of the story. There's also that guard she killed. She never thinks if that was justified or not.

She also hangs out with the scum in Braavos and I wouldn't be surprised if they are rapists and murderers. One of them is a thief and taught her to steal better. She doesn't care about their crimes. That prostitute that murders her clients Arya just started to murder just like her instead of thinking what she does isn't right.

GRRM is inspired by child soldiers who have the tendency to commit atrocities not do justice so it makes sense that Arya is now starting to come off more like a serial killer than someone who has a strong sense of right and wrong. GRRM said killing becomes almost a game.

She doesn't think she is justice either because in her latest chapter she says:

As I cannot be the hero, let me be the monster, and lesson them in fear in place of love.” Mercy mouthed the last lines along with him. They were better lines than hers, and apt besides.

Also, she has become a professional killer which is like Rodrik Stark who became a sellsword in Essos. They (sellswords ) don't care about justice. They just like killing and sellswords want money. Arya didn't even ask for proof of the insurance man's crime and wanted to kill his guards for no reason.

If anything at this stage the other Starks care about justice more than she does. Like Jon Snow for example.

[Annara Snow]

Eh no, it was Joff's command. Cersei actually planned to send him to the Wall.

It did probably foreshadow the fact that Sansa's actions would indirectly lead to her father's death. In both cases her personal vanity and selfishness cause her harm which ultimately leads her reduced to the social status of a 'bastard'. Not attacking her but just pointing out a few hard truths.

Of all the things that have happened to Sansa, you find her pretending to be a bastard to be the hardest one? :lol: :blink:

[Annara Snow]

Arya never wished to be Nymeria. She named her wolf that but that doesn't mean she wished to be Nymeria. Nymeria was a queen and Arya has expressed no political aspirations. Nymeria was a battle commander. Arya has expressed no interest in battle tactics. Nymeria married strategically for her people.Arya refused to even if it would achieve vengeance better than killing people whose deaths does not help House Stark.

I never said she literally wanted to be Nymeria. But it's not like Sansa is likely to have wished to literally be queen Naerys and live in an unhappy marriage with an asshole king, for instance, just because she liked songs about Naerys and Aemon. But Arya naming her wolf Nymeria shows that someone like Nymeria appealed to her as a role model. And you really can't say that Arya wasn't for a while caught up in the dream of becoming a great swordsperson when she was training with Syrio and later when she thought she could fight people with Needle, before she was forced to confront the reality and find other ways to fight people and not be a "mouse".

snip

She does things for what she thinks of as justice. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with what most people would find just, or what the laws and rules are. Chyswick didn't do anything to to her, but she had him killed and wasted her first kill on him because she was so disgusted by him and his story of the gang rape - and his attitude (otherwise she may have had the Mountain killed instead). Dareon didn't do anything to her, but she killed him because he was an asshole and a deserter from the NW. She's OK with thieves and cutpurses, but a deserter from the NW, nope. She had to believe that the insurer was a really bad guy in order to murder him. She was shocked that the FM had given death to the Ugly Little Girl because she asked them to, while she thought they should have killed her abusive father instead.

Basically, she has her own idea of what justice is (not as a well-thought out system, she just decides it on the spot) and decides that certain people are bad and should be killed.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Sansa is not like Catelyn in personality. She's more like Ned, if anything. Arya is most like Catelyn in personality out of the Stark children. Obviously that doesn't mean they are the same, but they are far more alike than Sansa and Cat, or Bran and Cat. They even both think the same thing about having a hole/empty place where their heart used to be - Catelyn in ACOK after she hears about Bran and Rickon's "deaths", Arya in ASOS after the RW and later in AFFC. If unCat is a reflection of one of her children's life path and personality, it's Arya.

And I generally don't understand your argument...you think Sansa will go against her family because she has been forced to take a new persona and to start becoming more ruthless? *cough* Arya *cough*

I agree with everything you say about Arya and Catelyn but I seriously doubt Arya would ever go against her family regardless of how cold and ruthless she gets. Like Catelyn, Arya would to anything to protect her family or her pack as she calls it, from kiiling to compramizing with her sister to risking life and freedom for them. We see it when she tries to save Ned, Cat and Robb, tries to rescue Gendry in ACOK and later brings both him and Hot pie with her when leaving Harrenhall. And despite hungering for vengence she shows that she's willing to give it up or at least postpone it in a way when her family is involved like when she stops wishing King's Landing would drown because Sansa was still there and stops looking for ways to kill Sandor and escape him when he tells her that he's going to ransom her to her family, a bit like how Cat puts family over vengence.

What I meant by Sansa being most like Catelyn was that she was a little lady which you can't deny Catelyn as being even if Catelyn does develop and become quite fearsome towards the end of her life prior to Stoneheart. Arya was always described as being more like Lyanna and more wild.

I agree that Arya is a lot like Lyanna, more than any of her other siblings with her looks, horse riding, tendency to protect friends and other people needing help using force, wolf blood, flair for the dramatic, a slight romantic streak when thinking of her parent's love and fondness for flowers, she's also got a lot of Catelyn in her. Catelyn isn't a "little lady" because she wants to be, it's because it's her duty to be a lady and Cat is very dutiful. Sansa likes dressing up, observing courtesies, jewels and being pleasing. Catelyn on the other hand doesn't really like it but still does it. I'd say Arya is a mix of Lyanna and Catelyn.

As for Sansa and Lady, to be honest I'm really not sure what her death symbolizes other than to leave Sansa defenceless after Ned's execution.

[Annara Snow]

I agree with everything you say about Arya and Catelyn but I seriously doubt Arya would ever go against her family regardless of how cold and ruthless she gets. Like Catelyn, Arya would to anything to protect her family or her pack as she calls it, from kiiling to compramizing with her sister to risking life and freedom for them. We see it when she tries to save Ned, Cat and Robb, tries to rescue Gendry in ACOK and later brings both him and Hot pie with her when leaving Harrenhall. And despite hungering for vengence she shows that she's willing to give it up or at least postpone it in a way when her family is involved like when she stops wishing King's Landing would drown because Sansa was still there and stops looking for ways to kill Sandor and escape him when he tells her that he's going to ransom her to her family, a bit like how Cat puts family over vengence.

I think you misunderstood me. I never claimed that Arya would go against her family - which I don't believe; I was pointing out the faulty logic of the OP, who claimed that Sansa would go against her family because she's been forced to adopt another identity and because she has to become more ruthless. (How exactly any of those who lead to the conclusion of her going against her family, I have no idea.)

[ARYa_Nym]

I agree with everything you say about Arya and Catelyn but I seriously doubt Arya would ever go against her family regardless of how cold and ruthless she gets. Like Catelyn, Arya would to anything to protect her family or her pack as she calls it, from kiiling to compramizing with her sister to risking life and freedom for them. We see it when she tries to save Ned, Cat and Robb, tries to rescue Gendry in ACOK and later brings both him and Hot pie with her when leaving Harrenhall. And despite hungering for vengence she shows that she's willing to give it up or at least postpone it in a way when her family is involved like when she stops wishing King's Landing would drown because Sansa was still there and stops looking for ways to kill Sandor and escape him when he tells her that he's going to ransom her to her family, a bit like how Cat puts family over vengence.

I don't agree that she would do anything like Catelyn. She is unwilling to marry strategically. That can help her family far more than the FM would who have their own agenda. The KM offered her marriage. If she had married someone rich and got into the position Lynesse Hightower was in (able to influence and use a rich man's money) she could help her house more than what she's doing now. She would rather become a professional killer which is like Rodrik Stark although he likely later married Arya Flint and became lord.

ETA: I used the Illyrio example. He is rich and is able to do so much for his cause. Although it's not because of marriage but killing is not the only way to get revenge.

Of course I don't think it's bad but one of the most basic duties to the house is to marry and to provide heirs. When the family members start to get killed off providing heirs strengthen the house so you don't have a mess the Tullys might be in soon. She can also obtain an army by marrying the right person. Ned got troops by marrying Catelyn. Nymeria got a home by marrying Mors Martell. Arya is not interested even if there are more larger scale potential benefits than picking off one man at a time.

Sansa is much more likely to provide heirs for house Stark.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

.....Nymeria married strategically for her people.Arya refused to even if it would achieve vengeance better than killing people whose deaths does not help House Stark.

she repeatedly ignores the law.......Dunsen is on her list only for taking Gendry's helm..... She killed Dareon without a trial...... Arya did not care about Dareon's side of the story. There's also that guard she killed......She also hangs out with the scum in Braavos......Arya didn't even ask for proof of the insurance man's crime and wanted to kill his guards for no reason.

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

Trials in Westeros and Essos(!!!); Poor Ser Dunsen, professional purveyor of atrocity; Poor Bolton's man; She hangs out with POOR PEOPLE; The FM having a Freedom of Information Policy

:rofl:

:rofl:

I can't

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

Annara Snow, you failed to read my OP properly, or at least comprehend that I did not STATE that Sansa WOULD go against her family, I POSED THE QUESTION of whether she MIGHT go against her family. In a later comment I reiterated that I think she is not necessarily working for or against the Starks, but at a parallel for her own agenda.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

I think you misunderstood me. I never claimed that Arya would go against her family - which I don't believe; I was pointing out the faulty logic of the OP, who claimed that Sansa would go against her family because she's been forced to adopt another identity and because she has to become more ruthless. (How exactly any of those who lead to the conclusion of her going against her family, I have no idea.)

My mistake then, sorry. And yeah, ruthlessness =/= going against family. I think Sansa will become more ruthless and grey though after all that she has faced amd LF's tutelege.

[ARYa_Nym]

:rofl:

:rofl:

:rofl:

Trials in Westeros and Essos(!!!); Poor Ser Dunsen, professional purveyor of atrocity; Poor Bolton's man; She hangs out with POOR PEOPLE; The FM having a Freedom of Information Policy

:rofl:

:rofl:

I can't

Dareon never said his side and Arya didn't tell him what he was being punished for. She just shanked him in an alley. Ned let Gared say his side before he was killed. Catelyn wanted Tyrion tried and Uncat gives the Freys trials. Jon killed Janos legally also he did not kill the deserter he was around (Mance) but later learned to empathize with him. It wouldn't be more legal if Arya did it but she does not care about trials or in contacting a legal authority to bring Dareon to justice. The Bolton guard did nothing to her. It's not poor Dunsen but he shows that she will kill for reasons that are not really justice. He's a thief but so is she. She even said she forgot why Ned said it's wrong to steal. I don't think it would be justice if someone killed her in turn because she stole something.

She hangs out with scum.

"She missed the friends she made when she was Cat of the Canals...Merryy and her whores at the Happy Port, all the other rogues and wharfside scum."

GRRM's latest book shows what he means when he said rogue and Arya said scum. She also likes that pirate Pynto and we know what pirates are like.

Anyways, to the OP Lady was going to be killed anyways. Especially when Ned made his move against Cersei. There's no way she would have let that wolf live in KL.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

Dareon never said his side and Arya didn't tell him what he was being punished for. She just shanked him in an alley. Ned let Gared say his side before he was killed. Catelyn wanted Tyrion tried and Uncat gives the Freys trials. Jon killed Janos legally. It wouldn't be any more legal if Arya did it but she does not care about trials or in contacting a legal authority to bring Dareon to justice. The Bolton guard did nothing to her. It's not poor Dunsen but he shows that she will kill for reasons that are not really justice. He's a thief but so is she. She even said she forgot why Ned said it's wrong to steal.

She hangs out with scum.

GRRM's latest book shows what he means when he said rogue and Arya said scum. She also likes that pirate Pynto and we know what pirates are like.

Anyways, to the OP Lady was going to be killed anyways. Especially when Ned made his move against Cersei. There's no way she would have let that wolf live in KL.

The Bolton guard stood between her and safety for her and her friends. It's war, not a tea party sweetie.

She sized Dareon for what he was at first sight: a foul heart, and she was right. A trial? How? There are no real trials as you and i know them in westeros: UnCat's trials are a total sham. A show, with as much respect for human rights as a styrophome cup has nutrition.

Like, the classism...are you actually sitting there at your computer thinking "poor people sailing ships and work in the sex trade are as a rule are morally bankrupt and should be hated. Hate poor people because they are bad."

You just read a book series where GRRM spent thousands of pages talking about why feudal nobility are awful and feudalism is awful, and that's your conclusion? To unironically deny the humanity of lower-class people?

I am actually laughing out loud.

[ARYa_Nym]

The Bolton guard stood between her and safety for her and her friends. It's war, not a tea party sweetie.

She sized Dareon for what he was at first sight: a foul heart, and she was right. A trial? How? There are no real trials as you and i know them in westeros: UnCat's trials are a total sham. A show, with as much respect for human rights as a styrophome cup has nutrition.

Like, the classism...are you actually sitting there at your computer thinking "poor people sailing ships and work in the sex trade are as a rule are morally bankrupt and should be hated. Hate poor people because they are bad."

You just read a book series where GRRM spent thousands of pages talking about why feudal nobility are awful and feudalism is awful, and that's your conclusion? To unironically deny the humanity of lower-class people?

I am actually laughing out loud.

He did but that doesn't mean it's justice or that he deserved to die. Uncat's trials might be a sham but she still even in her warped undead version wants to give a semblance of justice. Arya does not care.

No, she said rogues not I love to help the poor and feed them like I'm a saint. Read GRRM's short story Rogues and see what that means. It means people like Daemon Targaryen. In her own words she also said wharfside scum. & pirates are no less shady than sellswords and Pynto was one of the most notorious pirates of his day. A good pirate is not going to be poor. Euron got all kinds of riches when he was off being a pirate.

ETA: This has nothing to do with Lady though.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

He did but that doesn't mean it's justice or that he deserved to die. Uncat's trials might be a sham but she still even in her warped undead version wants to give a semblance of justice. Arya does not care.

No, she said rogues not I love to help the poor and feed them like I'm a saint. Read GRRM's short story Rogues and see what that means. It means people like Daemon Targaryen. In her own words she also said wharfside scum. & pirates are no less shady than sellswords and Pynto was one of the most notorious pirates of his day.

Did Ned have a trial for his deserter. Dareon was an asshole. Good that he's dead. Fuck him.

Like, every heard of inverse pride? Arya's been outcast her whole life, and likely so have the sailors and prostitutes. They take pride in who they are. Like, I'm amazed you're actually saying "There is no chance that Arya found one of bit of kindness or humanity among poor people, obvs. They are poor and poor people are bad, themes be damned. She should not like poor people."

[ARYa_Nym]

Did Ned have a trial for his deserter. Dareon was an asshole. Good that he's dead. Fuck him.

Like, every heard of inverse pride? Arya's been outcast her whole life, and likely so have the sailors and prostitutes. They take pride in who they are. Like, I'm amazed you're actually saying "There is no chance that Arya found one of bit of kindness or humanity among poor people, obvs. They are poor and poor people are bad, themes be damned. She should not like poor people."

He gave a formal execution. He let Gared say his side and then he came to judgement and let everyone know what Gared was being punished for. He also had witnesses.

She doesn't have a problem with what they do or else she would have expressed it, not imitated them, or would start putting them on her list. & not just them but the KM too. Braavos is a crooked city with people who have crooked morals. ETA: Plus, you keep saying poor but you don't know that the rogues are poor or that Pynto doesn't still have money from his old days but just wants a quiet life now.