Pondering thoughts on the meaning of Lady's death and it's affect on Sansa.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

He gave a formal execution. He let Gared say his side and then he came to judgement and let everyone know what Gared was being punished for. He also had witnesses.

She doesn't have a problem with what they do or else she would have expressed it, not imitated them, or would start putting them on her list. & not just them but the KM too. Braavos is a crooked city with people who have crooked morals. ETA: Plus, you keep saying poor but you don't know that the rogues are poor or that Pynto doesn't still have money from his old days but just wants a quiet life now.

So? Dareon was a prick, she didn't have the choice to give him those small luxuries. He left on old man to die. Not surprising though that a man gets all your sympathy, but none for a woman (Arya).

Like, the sailors and prostitutes were kind and jovial with her as often as not, and so she naturally had a good regard for them. She had friends. Any child would in that situation.

You don't even have a reason to be declaring them all morally bankrupt. Like, what in your mind makes sailing so heinous as a profession? What in the text convinces you that every last of these people is basically a Dareon?-a person with no kindness or goodness?

[Duke-of-Kaisa]

I have rephrased a couple of lines in the last two paragraphs of my OP as I think it better reflects the questions/thoughts I was trying to pose about how Lady's death could be symbolic, and affect Sansa's character.

I knew what you meant StannisForKing299AL and I liked your theory. :-)

I also liked the theory about Lady's body being back in Winterfell and how that draws Sansa's thoughts back there. :-) hmmmm those crypts have a lot to answer for...

[ARYa_Nym]

So? Dareon was a prick, she didn't have the choice to give him those small luxuries. He left on old man to die. Not surprising though that a man gets all your sympathy, but none for a woman (Arya).

Like, the sailors and prostitutes were kind and jovial with her as often as not, and so she naturally had a good regard for them. She had friends. Any child would in that situation.

You don't even have a reason to be declaring them all morally bankrupt. Like, what in your mind makes sailing so heinous as a profession? What in the text convinces you that every last of these people is basically a Dareon?-a person with no kindness or goodness?

You can not be sympathetic towards someone but also realize a certain action against them was morally wrong.

I didn't say sailors. But even if you want to go by that I've noticed it's mainly them who love to proposition her- an underage girl who is clearly a child. They don't care. She said she hangs around rogues. In the story Rogues we are told what this means:

"...Scoundrels, con men, and scalawags. N'er-do-wells, thieves, cheats, and rascals. Bad boys and bad girls. Swindlers, seducers, deceivers, flimflam men, imposters, frauds, frakes, liars, cads, tricksters...they bo by many names...They are the children of Loki...More often they are something in between, grey characters...and grey has long been my favorite color. It is so much more interesting than black or white. I guess I have always been partial to rogues."

^Dareon is probably better than a rogue. He was an insensitive douchebag but he is not of the likes of Daemon Targaryen who can orchestrate a Blood and Cheese scenario and feel no guilt about it.

& she said she hung around wharfside SCUM. One of them taught her to steal better. One of the prostitutes Arya mentioned robs and murders her clients and leaves them for the eels which is what she later started to do. She also likes to hear about Pynto's glory days.

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

You can not be sympathetic towards someone but also realize a certain action against them was morally wrong.

I didn't say sailors. But even if you want to go by that I've noticed it's mainly them who love to proposition her- an underage girl who is clearly a child. They don't care. She said she hangs around rogues. In the story Rogues we are told what this means:

^Dareon is probably better than a rogue. He was an insensitive douchebag but he is not of the likes of Daemon Targaryen who can orchestrate a Blood and Cheese scenario and feel no guilt about it.

& she said she hung around wharfside SCUM. One of them taught her to steal better. One of the prostitutes Arya mentioned robs and murders her clients and leaves them for the eels which is what she later started to do. She also likes to hear about Pynto's glory days.

"Scum" being a term of inverse pride. "Rogue" can have different connotations in different contexts. It's a word, hello. Stealing is how she's learned to survive. They live a tough life in a tough world. They buy seafood from her cart and tell her tall-tales and have some rough back-and-forth. She calls them "cunts" and they laugh at that and say farewell. Some are kinder than others. She was a lonely girl and they befriend her. Any girl her age would be grateful for that.

What ivory-tower do you live in?

Like I said, you don't have any reason to be declaring every single one among them as having no redeeming qualities or humanity unless you've unironically bought into the classist statements of people like Tywin Lannister and others. In which case, you're hopeless.

[ARYa_Nym]

"Scum" being a term of inverse pride. "Rogue" can have different connotations in different contexts. It's a word, hello. Stealing is how she's learned to survive. They live a tough life in a tough world. They buy seafood from her cart and tell her tall-tales and have some rough back-and-forth. She calls them "cunts" and they laugh at that and say farewell. Some are kinder than others. She was a lonely girl and they befriend her. Any girl her age would be grateful for that.

What ivory-tower do you live in?

Like I said, you don't have any reason to be declaring every single one among them as having no redeeming qualities or humanity unless you've unironically bought into the classist statements of people like Tywin Lannister and others. In which case, you're hopeless.

The author told us what he thinks it means and it's paired with her saying she likes to hang out with scum. Plus, she was imitating their behavior. Killing Dareon, stealing his boots, and leaving him in the canal. You keep saying classist but you don't know that even the majority of them are poor. ETA: Plus, the dictionary aligns with what GRRM said. It's an unprincipled dishonest person.

[Lord Hyrule]

Considering that the Starks that are alive have their dire wolf (except for Sansa of course) could mean something.. I don't really have a grasp of it or what I am trying to say but.. It does mean something. Maybe it means she will be different from the Starks and be the one that changes immensely into a completely different person. I'm not sure.. But I agree that it does mean something.

It sucks though, Lady was a Lady and was innocent but still killed. :(

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

The author told us what he thinks it means and it's paired with her saying she likes to hang out with scum. Plus, she was imitating their behavior. You keep saying classiest but you don't know that they are poor.

The author wrote another story about another character which was about a "rogue." Why would the world taken on one single meaning for every single person in the whole universe? Hello?

Are sailors and prostitutes in your experience counted among the upper-class?

Is the air thin up in your ivory tower? Can you breathe properly?

[ARYa_Nym]

The author wrote another story about another character which was about a "rogue." Why would the world taken on one single meaning for every single person in the whole universe? Hello?

Are sailors and prostitutes in your experience counted among the upper-class?

Is the air thin up in your ivory tower? Can you breathe properly?

He gave a description before he even started the story to show what he meant by the word. He gave us a definition of the word. But of course since you don't like it that's irrelevant. Arya also isn't dumb. Rogue would not all of a sudden mean a godly man who is full of justice and honor. Scum would not all of a sudden mean a kind hearted person who just didn't fit in. Again, she said she missed the rogues not sailors. How do you know all the rogues are poor? That doesn't mean anything anyways. S'vrone is a poor multiple murderess and thief who Arya later imitated. The first Reek in Westeros was poor. That has nothing to do with who he was like as a person.

ETA: But let's finish this since it's OT.

[RainGhost]

So, according to this, Starks are unable to lie, otherwise they are not Stark?

No. That wasn't what I was saying at all. Specifically, Sansa was saying that her father, brother and mother were traitors. Can you imagine any of her siblings saying things like that? More likely they would call them all a bunch of liars. I'm not saying they can't lie about other things.

[Annara Snow]

No. That wasn't what I was saying at all. Specifically, Sansa was saying that her father, brother and mother were traitors. Can you imagine any of her siblings saying things like that? More likely they would call them all a bunch of liars. I'm not saying they can't lie about other things.

Uh, yes, of course I can imagine them saying that. If they had been hostages, any of them would be saying that same shit to survive, due to the fact that none of them is a complete idiot. Well, maybe Rickon wouldn't be saying it, because he's four years old and doesn't understand anything that's going on, but everyone else would. What is your point?

[SacredOrderOfGreenMen]

He gave a description before he even started the story to show what he meant by the word. He gave us a definition of the word. But of course since you don't like it that's irrelevant. Arya also isn't dumb. Rogue would not all of a sudden mean a godly man who is full of justice and honor. Scum would not all of a sudden mean a kind hearted person who just didn't fit in. Again, she said she missed the rogues not sailors. How do you know all the rogues are poor? That doesn't mean anything anyways. S'vrone is a poor multiple murderess and thief who Arya later imitated. The first Reek in Westeros was poor. That has nothing to do with who he was like as a person.

ETA: But let's finish this since it's OT.

Another story, another character.

So, in conclusion then:

There was absolutely nothing wrong with Arya befriending sailors and prostitutes on account of their general friendliness toward her.

[psyqo78]

Can't believe someone can't see the difference of lying to keep your head on your shoulders or worse being tortured by a spoiled, sadistic, psychopathic child king with seemingly endless cruelty and lying like say... The way Littlefinger lies. Totally different.

Ned lied for honor. To honor a vow to his sister on her deathbed, lied to save his children. Jon lied to infiltrate an opposing force. Every lie the "Starks" have seemingly done other than Sansa's lie about not seeing Joffrey start the fight with Mycah have been to the benefit of saving each other or the realm.

[Knight Of Winter]

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Thanks for response, Mladen :). And Annara, that was one awesome post.

[Mladen]

No. That wasn't what I was saying at all. Specifically, Sansa was saying that her father, brother and mother were traitors. Can you imagine any of her siblings saying things like that? More likely they would call them all a bunch of liars. I'm not saying they can't lie about other things.

Yes, easily. Do you remember Bran submitting to Theon or Arya keeping her head low in Harrenhal? Sansa wasn't saying those things because she meant them, she was saying in order to survive. I mean, I knew that Joffrey is gullible enough to bought such obvious lie but the fact that readers bought that is beyond me.

[David Selig]

No. That wasn't what I was saying at all. Specifically, Sansa was saying that her father, brother and mother were traitors. Can you imagine any of her siblings saying things like that? More likely they would call them all a bunch of liars. I'm not saying they can't lie about other things.

Well, they were traitors to King Joffrey, that's the truth. There's no lie in acknowledging it. Catelyn did the same when she met Stannis IIRC.

[Keycube]

I'm not sure the death of Lady necessarily affected Sansa, as much as it gave us (read: me) some insight in to her (lack of) motivations.

Even after Lady was killed, there was no contrition on Sansa's part; to make matters worse, it took a betrayal of her sister (in not telling the truth about the Nymeria incident) to get to that point...and she didn't seem to give a damn about that either. Coupled with sweeping all of that under an emotional rug, she still purported to love/support Joffrey. I remember one passage in AGoT where Sansa was justifying Joffrey to herself by thinking, "Sure, Joffrey killed an animal, but there's no way he would hurt my father" (paraphrased). None of this should surprise anyone, given how superficial and pie-in-the-sky Sansa is throughout most of AGoT. This isn't because she's young and innocent and doesn't know what death is or hasn't been exposed to honourable behaviour...it's because she's spoiled and self-centered...to the point of rudeness when others aren't on board with her dreamy notions.

This is who Sansa is; she's the pragmatist to Arya's idealist. She's how most people describe a good person (keep to yourself, don't rock the boat), vs. how everyone SHOULD describe a good person (kill the bad people). Sansa is a survivor. Arya wants justice to survive. And it is why I am hoping for an Arya/Sansa showdown where Arya gets to show Sansa that she's finally learned how to handle (a) needle after all. :)

IMHO!

[Sophist]

I think that the OP asks a good question. The direwolves clearly serve as metaphors, and when an author uses metaphor -- especially one as obvious as the direwolves -- we should take them seriously. The difficulty with metaphors is that, pretty much by definition, they have multiple possible meanings.

As I see it, there are at least 3 possible meanings we could take from Lady's death:

1. Sansa lost her connection to the rest of the Stark family and from that point will go her own way.

2. Lady's death symbolized the death of Sansa's goal of becoming a Lady. She never will.

3. Lady's death symbolized Sansa's own death, possibly at the hand of a father figure or another Stark.

Personally, I'm inclined to see 2 as the most likely reading, but I can't rule out 1 either. I see 3 as unlikely.

I also think we could make similar deductions about the other direwolves (as nearly everybody does with Jon Snow and Ghost), but I'll leave it with Sansa to stay on topic.

[James Arryn]

Separation from your dire wolf has been very important to Robb and Jon, and that was temporary. IMO Arya is the most adrift, and the most distanced from her living direwolf, and Sansa is essentially a non-person, though to be fair that didn't start until long after Lady's death.

I think we can all agree it means something.

[Mladen]

This is who Sansa is; she's the pragmatist to Arya's idealist. She's how most people describe a good person (keep to yourself, don't rock the boat), vs. how everyone SHOULD describe a good person (kill the bad people). Sansa is a survivor. Arya wants justice to survive. And it is why I am hoping for an Arya/Sansa showdown where Arya gets to show Sansa that she's finally learned how to handle (a) needle after all. :)

Arya is an idealist and Sansa a pragmatist? The girl who thinks about knights and honor, songs and chivalry is a pragmatist? And the one who understands what needs to be done for survival is an idealist? I am sorry, but you completely messed this up. And Arya/Sansa showdown will never happen, especially not the scenario you suggest. These are wolves, pack animals, with such great sense for the members of their pack... Arya killing Sansa is basically in contrition with everything we know of these two. Especially the lack of motivation, love they feel for each other etc...

Separation from your dire wolf has been very important to Robb and Jon, and that was temporary. IMO Arya is the most adrift, and the most distanced from her living direwolf, and Sansa is essentially a non-person, though to be fair that didn't start until long after Lady's death.

I think we can all agree it means something.

I am sorry, but what bolded even means?

And yes, the Lady's death means something but IMO, people usually miss the point what that really means.

[James Arryn]

Arya is an idealist and Sansa a pragmatist? The girl who thinks about knights and honor, songs and chivalry is a pragmatist? And the one who understands what needs to be done for survival is an idealist? I am sorry, but you completely messed this up. And Arya/Sansa showdown will never happen, especially not the scenario you suggest. These are wolves, pack animals, with such great sense for the members of their pack... Arya killing Sansa is basically in contrition with everything we know of these two. Especially the lack of motivation, love they feel for each other etc...

I am sorry, but what bolded even means?

And yes, the Lady's death means something but IMO, people usually miss the point what that really means.

I think she is demonstrating almost all the symptoms of someone enduring sustained trauma, and their/her priorities are pretty readily reduced to Maslowe's top 2-3. She is trying very very very hard to become furniture or anything else that will go unnoticed and as such avoid drawing more trauma. Almost every haven offered her has proven disastrously false, and IMO she's basically numb and on survival auto-pilot and mostly has been since, not quite Ned's death, though it's rooted there, but when all the offers of salvation since have been deceptions, etc.

That's why when people criticize her for failing to ponder Jeyne or Arya or w/e, I'm not on board. I don't think she's herself...or anyone, really...at this point.