Black Dragons Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Why do some please call Black Dragon/Mummer Dragon a flake? if you people know the story Daemon Blackfyre should been King not because his half brother(Daeron) was not son of Aegon the unworthy, but his mother Daena should been crown queen, but they pass over her because she was woman. Her uncle Viserys got the crown. There have been FIVE Blackfyre rebellion the best/strong claim was with Daemon Blackfyre his children who did the other rebellions not sure who they mother is, she her name Serena Blackfyre not sure if she was one of Ageon IV bastards but he had many, many bastards. She born him seven sons (I think she must have related to Daemon in some way) because why would they the sons keep coming for the throne?. My point is the grand-grand sons of Daemon are not mummers but I heard last grand-grand-grand son died in the fifth and last Blackfyre rebellion. Theory that Aegon VI is real the son of Illyrio Mopatis and mother (Serra) is from Blackfyre (female line) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 The difference between the two houses are the surnames and the sigils. Other than that, they're both identical. They both have the looks, the blood, and the Blackfyres are probably just as capable of riding dragons as the Targaryens are. Aegon is called fake because he is being passed off as someone else. There is also the chance that Aegon isn't related to the Targaryens in any way, which would make him a complete fake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 The only real difference is that one part of family ended up victorious, and other perished into nothingness... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 The difference is that some Blackfyres (though not all) would have been better kings than the Targs that opposed them, like Daemon II or Aegon VI ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 House Blackfyre is descended from Aegon III while House Targaryen is descended solely from Viserys II. Other than that, House Targaryen had Baelor Breakspear while House Blackfyre didn't. House Targaryen also is the house of the AA/PtwP. And currently House Targaryen has dragons while descendants of House Blackfyre don't. Why do some please call Black Dragon/Mummer Dragon a flake? if you people know the story Daemon Blackfyre should been King not because his half brother(Daeron) was not son of Aegon the unworthy, but his mother Daena should been crown queen, but they pass over her because she was woman. Her uncle Viserys got the crownDidn't Daena's father Aegon III make it law that the crown always goes to the eldest trueborn heir? It was his law that made Daena be passed over in succession. Daeron being Aemon's is just a rumor with no evidence that Daemon spread, because he wasn't exactly going to say he was trying to overthrow his elder royal brother for personal reasons: ie resentment at being a bastard and Daenerys being betrothed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 It's basically a non-distinction at this point. From what we can tell, a Blackfyre could legally adopt the name Targaryan if they wanted. Daemon didn't want to, but that's not definitive for his line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 It's basically a non-distinction at this point. From what we can tell, a Blackfyre could legally adopt the name Targaryan if they wanted. Daemon didn't want to, but that's not definitive for his line. Pretty sure all Blackfyres were attainted and stripped of legitimacy given all their rebellions. That said, the current ruling dynasty will just see a Targaryen, and it's not as if Dany really even knows what Blackfyres are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 Pretty sure all Blackfyres were attainted and stripped of legitimacy given all their rebellions. That said, the current ruling dynasty will just see a Targaryen, and it's not as if Dany really even knows what Blackfyres are.Yeah, I operate under the assumption that attainder operates more or less along RL lines (absent the necessary leg. body) wherein the vast majority are eventually reversed...usually because, as with BF now, people who care enough about it die off or lose power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dragons Posted September 20, 2014 Author Share Posted September 20, 2014 House Blackfyre is descended from Aegon III while House Targaryen is descended solely from Viserys II. Other than that, House Targaryen had Baelor Breakspear while House Blackfyre didn't. House Targaryen also is the house of the AA/PtwP. And currently House Targaryen has dragons while descendants of House Blackfyre don't. Didn't Daena's father Aegon III make it law that the crown always goes to the eldest trueborn heir? It was his law that made Daena be passed over in succession. Daeron being Aemon's is just a rumor with no evidence that Daemon spread, because he wasn't exactly going to say he was trying to overthrow his elder royal brother for personal reasons: ie resentment at being a bastard and Daenerys being betrothed. Hey that right but the next eldest was Daena was next eldest because two brothers had died that made her next in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted September 20, 2014 Share Posted September 20, 2014 House Blackfyre is descended from Aegon III while House Targaryen is descended solely from Viserys II. Other than that, House Targaryen had Baelor Breakspear while House Blackfyre didn't. House Targaryen also is the house of the AA/PtwP. And currently House Targaryen has dragons while descendants of House Blackfyre don't. Didn't Daena's father Aegon III make it law that the crown always goes to the eldest trueborn heir? It was his law that made Daena be passed over in succession. Daeron being Aemon's is just a rumor with no evidence that Daemon spread, because he wasn't exactly going to say he was trying to overthrow his elder royal brother for personal reasons: ie resentment at being a bastard and Daenerys being betrothed.My sense is that if Daemon was behind the rumour, he believed it. If it was intentionally fake, that's probably the work of people around him. I think he also didn't feel the need for a pretext; the sword plus personal plus I can plus Daddy's will ( as in preference, not document) were probably enough. The last alone has been central to many successions in RL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 My sense is that if Daemon was behind the rumour, he believed it. If it was intentionally fake, that's probably the work of people around him. I think he also didn't feel the need for a pretext; the sword plus personal plus I can plus Daddy's will ( as in preference, not document) were probably enough. The last alone has been central to many successions in RL. Preference doesn't count as a will according to any law. Aegon IV didn't name Daemon his heir. Aegon didn't publicly proclaim Daemon his heir. Having the sword isn't enough as Daeron was still the eldest trueborn son of the previous king. Daemon needed a pretext that made him look legitimate. He didn't need to believe it to spread it as men have been known to lie to get what they want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 The difference is that some Blackfyres (though not all) would have been better kings than the Targs that opposed them, like Daemon II or Aegon VI ;) How on earth would someone like Daemon II be a better King than Aerys I... At least Aerys had the common sense to understand that the Realm was better off run by BR, whereas Daemon threw himself headlong into a foolish venture. As to Aegon VI, the little we have seen so far seems to paint the picture of a stubborn boy with a temper, but who knows how that will evolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Preference doesn't count as a will according to any law. Aegon IV didn't name Daemon his heir. Aegon didn't publicly proclaim Daemon his heir. Having the sword isn't enough as Daeron was still the eldest trueborn son of the previous king. Daemon needed a pretext that made him look legitimate. He didn't need to believe it to spread it as men have been known to lie to get what they want.I specified not the legal concept/document of will, but merely his motivation/argument. The sword not being enough is hindsight. Had he won, the sword would have been enough and being the eldest true born son wouldn't have been enough. Both had been contiguous factors in all preceding successions that we know about. One of them would win the war and therefore argument, and one wouldn't/lose. Just as the Dance retroactively made gender the determinant, the battle made eldest son the determinant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 I specified not the legal concept/document of will, but merely his motivation/argument.The sword not being enough is hindsight. Had he won, the sword would have been enough and being the eldest true born son wouldn't have been enough. Both had been contiguous factors in all preceding successions that we know about. One of them would win the war and therefore argument, and one wouldn't/lose. Just as the Dance retroactively made gender the determinant, the battle made eldest son the determinant.Except the sword wasn't the sole argument, but that also Daeron wasn't Aegon's son. The latter was Daemon's public reason for trying to take the crown. Battle of Redgrass Field didn't make the eldest son determinant. The eldest son was obviously already determinant for millenia, and it was the rule for Targaryens for over a hundred years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acnologia Targaryen Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 because they have different last names of course. In westeros its the family name that matters you know and daemon didn't get to have the targ name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 because they have different last names of course. In westeros its the family name that matters you know and daemon didn't get to have the targ name. Actually he did. He just choose not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 How on earth would someone like Daemon II be a better King than Aerys I... At least Aerys had the common sense to understand that the Realm was better off run by BR, whereas Daemon threw himself headlong into a foolish venture. As to Aegon VI, the little we have seen so far seems to paint the picture of a stubborn boy with a temper, but who knows how that will evolve.Aerys I was a puppet who had no interest in ruling, how on earth would someone like that even qualify as a good king? Daemon II at least put himself in the thick of things, was honorable enough to demand a fair joust, was brave enough to fight against the loyalists (even if it was just by himself), and was open-minded enough to see beyond Dunk's lowbirth (yeah, ok, he also wanted to tap that ass, but still), and that was posivitely Breaksperian in quality.I don't even wanna open the "Dany vs Aegon" can of worms, but despite all the crap Aegon takes because he threw some civasse pieces, he was noble enough to defend Tyrion and to see beyond Duck's lowbirth. And he's already in Westeros, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veltigar Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Aerys I was a puppet who had no interest in ruling, how on earth would someone like that even qualify as a good king? Daemon II at least put himself in the thick of things, was honorable enough to demand a fair joust, was brave enough to fight against the loyalists (even if it was just by himself), and was open-minded enough to see beyond Dunk's lowbirth (yeah, ok, he also wanted to tap that ass, but still), and that was posivitely Breaksperian in quality. Aerys had no interest in ruling, that was why he looked to Bloodraven, a highly capable man to do it for him. Daemon II had no talent for ruling at all, but chose to still mess around instead of listening to wiser advisors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Hey that right next eldest Daena was next eldest because two brothers had died that made her next in line. Not exactly. Whether this law came to be only after the end of the Dance, or whether it was already practised (in some form) before, is still uncertain, but the law was that first all males would inherit, and only then all the females. When Daena's youngest brother died, there were still males left to inherit: her uncle Viserys, and her cousin Aegon. Daena was never, ever, the next in line to inherit the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Guy Garlan Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Aerys had no interest in ruling, that was why he looked to Bloodraven, a highly capable man to do it for him. Daemon II had no talent for ruling at all, but chose to still mess around instead of listening to wiser advisors.So, Aerys was a good ruler because he let more capable people do the ruling for him? Yeah, that's not how that works. We're comparing Aerys and Daemon, not their advisors. The fact that BR was in charge further proves that Aerys was a puppet through and through. And it was an uneven fight, because Daemon had no magical sorcerers to fight his battles, he only had some grasping fools whispering in his ear, and despite all that he turned out alright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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