Did Mance Rayder accidentally bring back the Others?

[Balerion the one eared cat]

In all likelihood, this is me just misreading the implications. However, after reading a part of ASOS again, I came across a quote which threw me a bit. (spoilers up to ADWD)

“We never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!” ~ Ygritte, ASOS

This confused me a lot, because to me, the implication is that these "shades" were the Others. To me, this was evidence that Mance had inadvertently brought the Others back into the world by searching for magic that he was never supposed to find, and accidentally loosed the Others from whatever power was restraining them. These shades must be something of a big deal because Ygritte seems pretty upset (or perhaps terrified) - and when do we ever see Ygritte crying?! - which makes me think that she's talking about something more sinister than mere wights which seem easier to kill than actual Others/White Walkers. If Mance did release the Others from whatever magic was preventing them from rising again, it would explain why Ygritte seems so regretful - the wildings essentially brought the Doom of Westeros upon themselves by following Mance's orders.

My other reason for thinking Mance may have resurrected them is that fact that we don't as yet know whether the Others rise when winter comes, or whether winter comes as a result of the Others returning. So perhaps the reason for this winter is because Mance raised the Others in trying to find the Horn, for a reason we don't yet know (perhaps he knew something of the prophecies about dragons returning and wanted some leverage if they descended on his people?)

I'm not really presenting this as a theory, because I don't fully believe it myself - I'm really waiting for you guys to pick holes in it and clarify it all for me! So, my question is this: Was Mance looking for the Horn and, in searching graves and delving into mysteries he should have stayed well away from, inadvertently resurrect the Others, and that's why he's now desperate to get beyond the Wall, or were the Others coming anyway, and he simply wanted the Horn to use against the Night's Watch if they denied his people passage? And so, are these "shades" just standard wights or are they the real, full-blown Others?

Another thing which I kind of assumed, but perhaps might not be true, is that the Horn of Joramun is the same Dragon Horn which Euron found and gave to Victarion. Am I right in assuming this, or are there two magic horns: one to control fire and the other ice? Because if both Horns are one and the same, then 1. that's a pretty freaking powerful magic horn! and 2. whoever possesses that Horn basically controls everything....and therefore could potentially be the Song of Ice and Fire personified. Maybe AAR/TPtwP/The Last Hero will be the only person who can wield the Horn and survive, thus controlling/winning the Battle for the Dawn? (And perhaps this person has blood of Ice and Fire, which is why he has the ability to wield the horn safely...oh, hello there, Jon Snow!)

Okay, a lot of this is my stream-of-consciousness so apologies if it doesn't make sense... but what do you guys think? Tell me if I'm stating the obvious, tell me I'm wrong, or that this is all completely crackpot, please! Also, sorry if this has already been covered, if so please could someone link me to that thread? (I'm new here! :P )

Thanks!

[Howland Reeds Weed Swamp]

Seems good.

[Recovering forum addict]

I've always assumed that Ygritte was only speaking figuratively - there were no actual wights or shades or Others released from the graves.

And wasn't the return of the Others the reason that Mance managed to unite so many of the Wildlings? It would be a bit circular if it was also the other way around. Or do you mean that he first started digging for the horn together with a small group, and then the Others returned, and then Mance started gathering his army?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

No. Mance digging up those graves is the direct consequence of the Others threatening his people.

[Balerion the one eared cat]

I've always assumed that Ygritte was only speaking figuratively - there were no actual wights or shades or Others released from the graves.

Oh I see, you're saying that expression about shades was more like her usual wildling superstition (don't name a baby until it's two years old, Gendel's children, all that)? Ahh, that makes a lot more sense. Thanks!

[King of the Rock]

It is an interesting find, but Bright Blue Eyes is correct. The only reason they're looking for the Horn of Winter is because they're under the threat of the Others.

[SugarCrisp]

I just re-read that part as well. My impression is they could have released the wights. They were looking for the horn to flee from the Others, so they were already a threat.

[unitron]

Those graves were the graves of humans, and when she says "shades" she means the spirits or ghosts of those humans.

[Nyrhex]

No. Mance digging up those graves is the direct consequence of the Others threatening his people.

Do we know this for sure? Mance seems to care more about carving himself a new kingdom south of the Wall than with protecting his people. Several KBTW tried to pass around, over, and under the Wall to bring thier people south, without the Others being the reason. What makes us think that Mance is only reacting to a threat when he plans to march on the Wall?

[Ser Greg of House House]

Do we know this for sure? Mance seems to care more about carving himself a new kingdom south of the Wall than with protecting his people. Several KBTW tried to pass around, over, and under the Wall to bring thier people south, without the Others being the reason. What makes us think that Mance is only reacting to a threat when he plans to march on the Wall?

This.

I don't know if Mance brought back the Others all by himself. That sounds like too much. But he may have precipitated stuff.

I understand that the threat made things easier for Mance to unite all of the Smallfolk. But wasn't he trying to be King before that? (I really don't know)

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Do we know this for sure? Mance seems to care more about carving himself a new kingdom south of the Wall than with protecting his people. Several KBTW tried to pass around, over, and under the Wall to bring thier people south, without the Others being the reason. What makes us think that Mance is only reacting to a threat when he plans to march on the Wall?

Yes. Because we know that Mance only started digging after he returned from Winterfell, a year or two after we saw the first Others in the prologue. And Ygritte links it to the threat.

[Nyrhex]

Yes. Because we know that Mance only started digging after he returned from Winterfell, a year or two after we saw the first Others in the prologue. And Ygritte links it to the threat.

Where do we see that?

Mance had spent years assembling this vast plodding host, talking to this clan mother and that magnar, winning one village with sweet

words and another with a song and a third with the edge of his sword, making peace between Harma Dogshead and the Lord o’ Bones,

between the Hornfoots and the Nightrunners, between the walrus men of the Frozen Shore and the cannibal clans of the great ice rivers,

hammering a hundred different daggers into one great spear, aimed at the heart of the Seven Kingdoms. He had no crown nor scepter, no

robes of silk and velvet, but it was plain to Jon that Mance Rayder was a king in more than name.

Mance has been preparing this invasion for years. And if he uses sweet words and violence, it seems that there are other reasons holding his army than the simple fear of the Others.

[John Suburbs]

In my reading, the timeline is still very fuzzy.

Mance defects from the NW and sets about uniting the wildlings.

Somewhere in that time, he goes looking for the horn, ostensibly to bring down the wall, not to guard against the Others.

Others start showing up and drives more wildlings into Mance's camp.

Mance moves his army south to attack the wall.

I can't find anything definite in the text to conclude that line 2 came before line 1, or vice versa. If anyone has any evidence, please post.

[oursisthefury69]

Your concept on the Others bringing the Winter isnt the case since they've experienced Winters without the Others and its somewhat misplaced for the overall theory, But the quote you present is definitely more important/mysterious than people give it credit for and definitely a good thing to question, it certainly gave me pause the first time rereading it, and keep in mind Ygrittes quote is more or less what they end that chapter on which is something i usually find important.

No. Mance digging up those graves is the direct consequence of the Others threatening his people.

While your correct your entirely to dismissive of any and all potential importance, GRRM isnt one to just throw pointless things into this series just for the shit of it: Your right about the apparent chronology of Mance and the wildlings being threatend by the Others and then seeking out the Horn, but there's certainly a chance that their so said "loosing of shades" could have lent itself to the growing of their power or any number of different magics

[John Suburbs]

Your concept on the Others bringing the Winter isnt the case since they've experienced Winters without the Others and its somewhat misplaced for the overall theory, But the quote you present is definitely more important/mysterious than people give it credit for and definitely a good thing to question, it certainly gave me pause the first time rereading it, and keep in mind Ygrittes quote is more or less what they end that chapter on which is something i usually find important.

While your correct your entirely to dismissive of any and all potential importance, GRRM isnt one to just throw pointless things into this series just for the shit of it: Your right about the apparent chronology of Mance and the wildlings being threatend by the Others and then seeking out the Horn, but there's certainly a chance that their so said "loosing of shades" could have lent itself to the growing of their power or any number of different magics

Can you point me to a chapter where Mance says we were threatened by Others, and then we went for the horn? My recollection is that Mance wanted to unite the wildlings against the Night's Watch, and they sought the horn to wake the giants and bring down the wall.

Where does it say that the horn protects against Others?

[aryagonnakill#2]

We don't have enough info at this time to know for sure where the WW's come from or how they are created or when exactly they came back and how. However we can make a reasonably certain assessment that the horn Euron gave Victarion is not the Horn of Joramun because the writing is in Valyrian. I am in the camp that feels the horn is like the grail in Indiana Jones, the common looking 1, ie the 1 Sam has.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Can you point me to a chapter where Mance says we were threatened by Others, and then we went for the horn? My recollection is that Mance wanted to unite the wildlings against the Night's Watch, and they sought the horn to wake the giants and bring down the wall.

Where does it say that the horn protects against Others?

Not anywhere.

They sought the horn to bring down/cross the Wall and migrate southwards to escape from the Others. The search for the horn started monts/years after the Wildlings were threatened by the Others and some clans were already defeated.

[Lion Of The Night]

We don't have enough info at this time to know for sure where the WW's come from or how they are created or when exactly they came back and how. However we can make a reasonably certain assessment that the horn Euron gave Victarion is not the Horn of Joramun because the writing is in Valyrian. I am in the camp that feels the horn is like the grail in Indiana Jones, the common looking 1, ie the 1 Sam has.

j

We know that we have been told that the horn Mance found was a fake, a showy artifact to give hope to the wildlings that they could defeat the wall. Their could have been some properties to that horn but that is immaterial now.

Sam on the other hand found his horn stashed among a cache of dragonglass weapons, something we k ow can indeed kill the others. So it is logical to assume that this horn is either a weapon against them, or needed to be protected from them.

However this begs an important question. If this is the horn of winter, why is it hidden north of the wall?

If it is indeed capable of bringing the wall down why would you hide a thing where the WW or the wildlings an find and then use it? It would make more sense to send itsouth where it will be safe from use, or at the very least hhave the NW guard it. No we still need to learn more about that horn.

As for Mance, the timelines are still fuzzy, but it seems to me that he defected from the wall, decided to unite the tribes to forge a kingdom for himself, stumbled across the WW amassing strength, used that knowledge and fear to actually unite them with a common goal, survival, tried everything posible to get the fabled horn, failed, made something up and went to attack the wall.

Now again we do not know at all how the WW work, what their end game is, but Mance leading a mass exodus of people south, would make an easy trail to follow, and if the WW are purposefully adding wights to their army, than they might be following him. He may not have woken them, but hr may have inadvertently bolstered their numbers and led them straight to the wall efore its time.

[Janicia]

Craster had been doing his thing for decades, though I guess we don't know if he was connected to WW the whole time. But there is no indication that his behavior had changed recently.

Mance just hasn't been in power all that long. It seems like weird things, probably related to WW, have been happening north of the Wall for too long for Mance to have caused them. Rangers have been disappearing for a while. What was Bloodraven doing the whole time, if he hasn't been linked to WW?

[John Suburbs]

Not anywhere.

They sought the horn to bring down/cross the Wall and migrate southwards to escape from the Others. The search for the horn started monts/years after the Wildlings were threatened by the Others and some clans were already defeated.

But where does it say this in the text? Can you point me to a chapter? Is it possible that Mance tried to unite the wildlings to fight the NW, released the Others looking for the horn, and it was only then that the vast majority of wildings came to his side? And if the wildlings were so threatened by the Others for so many years, why hide out on the Frostfangs all that time? Wouldn't they be more likely to encounter Others that far north?