Lopsang Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Tyrion hates Jaime so much at this point, upon being rescued, he still tells Jaime he killed Joffery. What did Jaime do in recent history that made Tyrion hate him so much? Was it just the whole Tysha thing? That was a long time ago though, and in the beginning of the series, Tyrion does not hate him like that (for instance, not betting against him). Is there a rational reason that can explain Tyrion's hate, or was he just at his breaking point after the the whole trial and debacle of Joffery's death? For a character usually so rational and intelligent, that would be unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pod The Impaler Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Was it just the whole Tysha thing? YES. Seriously, that is enough by itself. (I'm not convinced he 100% hates him forever, though.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lopsang Posted September 21, 2014 Author Share Posted September 21, 2014 YES. Seriously, that is enough by itself. (I'm not convinced he 100% hates him forever, though.) But it seems that Tyrion's hatred for Jaime increased since AGoT. What accounts for Tyrion's sudden emergence of hatred for Jaime in particular? He seemed to express at least some degree of admiration for Jaime at some points in the series. I was just wondering if there was a certain thing Jaime did that made Tyrion especially mad that I missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Tyrion feels rather unloved, especially by his close family. The only exception is Jaime, who Tyrion trusted blindly. Then Jaime admits that Tysha, the one woman who Tyrion ever loved, had indeed loved him for who he was. She hadn't cared about the fact that he was a dwarf, something which everyone else seems to do. Tysha had loved him, it is as simple as that, and because of Jaime, Tyrion had allowed Tywin to humiliate her, hurt her, and send her away, all alone. The one person Tyrion trusted blindly sort of stabbed Tyrion in the back, and that is not a thing you just forget. So yeah, Tyrion currently hates Jaime, though that doesn't mean that he'll hate him forever, or that there isn't any affection for Jaime left. Jaime's betrayel, and Shae's "betrayel" have put Tyrion in a darker place right now, and he needs to get out of that, but it will take some time. But it seems that Tyrion's hatred for Jaime increased since AGoT. What accounts for Tyrion's sudden emergence of hatred for Jaime in particular? He seemed to express at least some degree of admiration for Jaime at some points in the series. I was just wondering if there was a certain thing Jaime did that made Tyrion especially mad that I missed. As to the fact that the Tysha-event was a long time ago.. It was, indeed, but Tyrion learned the truth about it all at then end of Storm. He had believed a lie about it all those years before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Well, because he loved him so much. The Tysha betrayal is huge in itself, but add to that his life-long admiration of Jaime and their genuinely kind relationship as opposed to how Cersei and Tywin treated him. Not to mention that he trusted his older brother completely, again, unlike his other kin. No wonder he's having a hard time getting over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balerion the one eared cat Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 The reason Tyrion turns on Jaime is because he find out the truth about Tysha:SPOILERS UP TO ADWD (probably...affc definitely) That she wasn't a whore, that she was just a normal, beautiful girl who loved Tyrion exactly for who he was (I think a large part of that is the fact that she went specifically for Tyrion, rather than Jaime, who was in reality her real rescuer by chasing off the rapers - we all know Tyrion's got something of an inferiority complex about being second-best to Jaime). The truth is, Jaime lied to Tyrion, betrayed him to his father, and the thing that is so awful to Tyrion is that he believed Jaime - because of that Tysha, his wife, perhaps one of the only people to find him genuinely desirable and want to spend her life with him, was given over to Tywin's guards and raped in front of him. He didn't protect her or do anything to stop it, because he believed she was a whore, that it was all an act on her part. She suffered immensely because Tyrion believed Jaime's lie. And now she's lost to him forever, with him tortured with the question where exactly whores go - or rather, innocent girls who marry for love and end up getting raped a hundred times and showered with silver for her trouble. Tywin made her into a whore, that's why Tyrion kills Tywin: he's now lost possibly his only hope of ever being truly happy. And Jaime went along with the lie, the older brother who Tyrion trusted to protect him more than anyone.The lie is both a blessing and a horrific curse all rolled into one: a blessing because Tyrion knows that Tysha loved him for who he was, that he'd found someone who honestly didn't care that he was a dwarf, and who desired him over his handsome, brave knight of an older brother. This also being a curse because of the horrific consequences for Tysha, because Tyrion didn't protect her, and so even if he ever does find out where whores go, she's unlikely to forgive him - or even be remotely like the girl he fell in love with.Almost everything that makes Tyrion Tyrion was shaped by the experience with Tysha: his lifelong obsession with whores (because obviously no one but a whore could ever love him, in his mind), issues with Tywin, his isolation from people yet desire to be accepted, everything stems from that.He trusted Jaime to protect him, and whilst hiring a whore for him to "have his first woman" isn't exactly a nice brotherly thing to do, knowing she did genuinely love him and keeping it from him for all those years (how long was it, ten,fifteen, maybe nearly twenty years?) when Tyrion put his trust fully into his brother (the only person he ever really seemed to trust) is far, far worse. Come on, if that's not enough reason to hate Jaime then what is?! Can you blame him for claiming he killed Joffrey? He needed to hurt Jaime the way he was hurting himself, it's the natural human reaction, and the only way he could see to do that was telling his brother than he'd killed his evil-spawn son - pretty harsh, and maybe makes Jaime feel guilty/conflicted for still caring about Tyrion - and shattering his relationship with Cersei... though to be fair, that was in Jaime's best interests, really.As for Tyrion being rational and intelligent... he still is, all the time. But like I said earlier, he's got an inferiority complex with Jaime, and he's always going to be the sad, defenceless little brother when he's with Jaime, the same way he's the scheming mutant disappointment who killed Tywin's wife when he's with his father (another reason Tywin needed to die). You can't blame him for behaving a little irrational when he starts to question his entire existence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Jaime told Tyrion that the girl he loved was a paid whore, Tyrion then raped her after she had been raped by the household guard. All the while Jaime knew that she was genuine and genuinely cared for Tyrion, the thing Tyrion craves. Maybe it is the Tysha thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Tyrion cracked. At the beginning of Dance, you could see how broken he is, and we can't even blame him for it. It's up until the end of the book that he starts to recovers his own self and his will to live. Eventually, he will put his feelings for Jaime in a better light, I suppose. The funny thing is that Tyrion, unknowingly, did Jaime a favour by telling him the true about Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoamingRonin Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 If Jaime told the truth, would that have changed anything? Genuine question. It seems like Tyrion helped rape Tysha because of the lie, as if she deserved it or something.ETA: I don't think he truly hates Jaime. Often when he thinks of Jaime he has to stop himself of he feels regret and lies to himself. Like the time he dreamed he had two heads, one head smiled as he killed Jaime but the other one was crying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 If Jaime told the truth, would that have changed anything? Genuine question. It seems like Tyrion helped rape Tysha because of the lie, as if she deserved it or something. The thing is that Jaime had nothing to lose by telling Tyrion. He was already part of the KG, he wouldn't inherit anything. He didn't even live in CR. I mean, come on. He killed a King and couldn't tell his brother "my father told you a lie?". That single event was what has defined Tyrion's life, and it was based in a lie Tywin invented to make him "learn a lesson". It could be said that Jaime wanted to protect Tyrion. If Tyrion had known the truth, he could have tried to defy Tywin and that wouldn't end up well for him. Or maybe, Jaime was immediately ordered to leave so he didn't have time to speak to him, but couldn't he at least tell him the next time they saw each other? I think that's what Tyrion resents the most, that Jaime couldn't find a moment to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince Lou of House Reed Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 Jaime was manipulated by Tywin on this one. He was young, his dad demands him to say the lie and fucks with his head saying that she was just using him for his money which a whore would do. Not a great move on Jamie's part but it's hard to deny your dad when you're that young especially when they're Tywin Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stannis's Lawyer Posted September 21, 2014 Share Posted September 21, 2014 But it seems that Tyrion's hatred for Jaime increased since AGoT. What accounts for Tyrion's sudden emergence of hatred for Jaime in particular? He seemed to express at least some degree of admiration for Jaime at some points in the series. I was just wondering if there was a certain thing Jaime did that made Tyrion especially mad that I missed. Tyrion found out that Jaime, the only person who Tyrion thought loved him, abetted the rape of Tysha, Tyrion's first tragic love, and then his the truth from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7th-key Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Because he blames Jaime for his own inability to stand by the woman he professed to love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 If Jaime told the truth, would that have changed anything? Genuine question. It seems like Tyrion helped rape Tysha because of the lie, as if she deserved it or something.ETA: I don't think he truly hates Jaime. Often when he thinks of Jaime he has to stop himself of he feels regret and lies to himself. Like the time he dreamed he had two heads, one head smiled as he killed Jaime but the other one was crying. He should have kept his mouth shut. By telling Tyrion the truth, he stripped him of the one family member who loves him. Now he's completely alone in the world. Well technically he has Penny, but she's gonna die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Jaime was manipulated by Tywin on this one. He was young, his dad demands him to say the lie and fucks with his head saying that she was just using him for his money which a whore would do. Not a great move on Jamie's part but it's hard to deny your dad when you're that young especially when they're Tywin Lannister. True. Doesn't help Tyrion in any way though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Greg of House House Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 YES. Seriously, that is enough by itself. (I'm not convinced he 100% hates him forever, though.) I would hate people forever for much, much less... Tyrion is totally justified in that. But yes. I think Tyrion will be capable of forgiving Jaime, realizing it was mostly Tywin's fault. I would understand if he didn't, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 But it seems that Tyrion's hatred for Jaime increased since AGoT. What accounts for Tyrion's sudden emergence of hatred for Jaime in particular? He seemed to express at least some degree of admiration for Jaime at some points in the series. I was just wondering if there was a certain thing Jaime did that made Tyrion especially mad that I missed. It has increased since AGOT because it was only ASOS that he discovers that Jaime lied to him (thus betraying him) about Tysha, as before that he didn't hate Jaime but instead worshiped him even thinking Jaime's actions in connection was a nicety that he had screwed up. Jaime was manipulated by Tywin on this one. He was young, his dad demands him to say the lie and fucks with his head saying that she was just using him for his money which a whore would do. Not a great move on Jamie's part but it's hard to deny your dad when you're that young especially when they're Tywin Lannister. Likely no harder then plotting to join the Kingsguard despite your father's wishes for your own self inter...wait that was for him not someone else thus why it was easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs_Darcy Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Jaime was manipulated by Tywin on this one. He was young, his dad demands him to say the lie and fucks with his head saying that she was just using him for his money which a whore would do. Not a great move on Jamie's part but it's hard to deny your dad when you're that young especially when they're Tywin Lannister. According to Westerosi standards Jaime actually was not THAT young, when it happened. The Tysha-incident happened after the Greyjoy-rebellion, when Jaime was at least 20 years old. By that time Jaime had already been a member of the kingsguard for about 5 years, killed the Mad King, probably fought in the Greyjoy rebellion and gotten at least one child on his sister. Additionally, he had not been living in his father's household for 5 years (since he joined the kingsguard when he was 15), did not stand in line to inherit Casterly Rock and therefore was completely independant of his father. If he did not have the guts to stand up to his father in this instance (which he certainly had regarding other things like joining the kingsguard), he had about 10 years, in which to tell Tyrion the truth and apologize. ETA: Actually, I find it interesting, that a lot of people say, that he had no choice against Tywin, since whenever Tyrion and Jaime REALLY want something, they do not care a fig, what their father wants: -Jaime joins the kingsguard even though he knows, his father does not want him to -Jaime does not leave the kingsguard and marry Margaery Tyrell, even though his father wants him to -Tyrion brings his whore to KL, even though he knows his father does not want him to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 21 actually. Maybe 22. He's eight years (and a couple months) older than Tyrion, who was 13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryanfury Posted September 22, 2014 Share Posted September 22, 2014 We know from Jaime's PoV that he's terribly conflicted by two things: He is hated by all for his finest act and loved by one for something he didn't do. The only person other than Cersei that loves Jaime for being Jaime is Tyrion. I think Jaime really did fear losing Tyrions love, hence not telling him about Tysha until a point in time in which Jaime probably thought he may never see Tyrion again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.