Question about seasons.

[T0ny_Stark]

Given that seasons last several years in Westeros, how do they know what amount of time constitutes a "year"? In our world the time taken for each season to pass once and the earth to get back to a certain position in its orbit around the sun is considered one year. With that logic shouldn't one year in Westeros be when each of the seasons has passed once?

[The hairy bear]

In Westeros, the world revolves around the sun independently of the seasons. So the maesters and the common people can control the passing of the years by observing the sun and the stars, but some other (magical) phenomenon causes the weird seasonal changes.

[Mychel_Redfort]

In Westeros, the world revolves around the sun independently of the seasons. So the maesters and the common people can control the passing of the years by observing the sun and the stars, but some other (magical) phenomenon causes the weird seasonal changes.

Are we sure of that ? I was under the impression that the disturbing of the seasons was the consequence of magic making the speed of the Earth rotation around the Sun erratic. That would keep the astronomical cause of the seasons. And the lasting of a year would be a reminiscence of the times before the seasons were disturbed.

[WeaselPie]

Are we sure of that ? I was under the impression that the disturbing of the seasons was the consequence of magic making the speed of the Earth rotation around the Sun erratic. That would keep the astronomical cause of the seasons. And the lasting of a year would be a reminiscence of the times before the seasons were disturbed.

Yes, we're sure of that. GRRM confirmed that the planet revolves around their sun the same as ours does, it is only the seasons that are magical/fantasy. A year is much the same as ours.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Yes, we're sure of that. GRRM confirmed that the planet revolves around their sun the same as ours does, it is only the seasons that are magical/fantasy. A year is much the same as ours.

You're right, I've found the SSM

Q: What is the cycle of a year? Why do they count years when seasons are strange?

A: Twelve moon tuns to a year, as on earth. Even on our earth, years have nothing to do with the seasons, or with the cycles of the moon. A year is a measure of a solar cycle, of how long it takes the earth to make one complete revolution around the sun. The same is true for the world of Westeros. Seasons do not come into it.

But I have to disagree with GRRM. Seasons are totally linked with the revolution of Earth around the Sun, and so is the length of the days, which is noted in the books (days grow shorter in autumn). It would have make more sense if a complete cycle of seasons had lasted one revolution around the sun.

[BastardlyRock]

But I have to disagree with GRRM. Seasons are totally linked with the revolution of Earth around the Sun, and so is the length of the days, which is noted in the books (days grow shorter in autumn). It would have make more sense if a complete cycle of seasons had lasted one revolution around the sun.

Right, but, you know. Magic.

[Consigliere]

But I have to disagree with GRRM. Seasons are totally linked with the revolution of Earth around the Sun, and so is the length of the days, which is noted in the books (days grow shorter in autumn). It would have make more sense if a complete cycle of seasons had lasted one revolution around the sun.

Pretty sure I read somewhere that Martin stated the reason for the planets climate is magical in nature and will be revealed at the end of the series.

[Lion Of The Night]

You're right, I've found the SSM

But I have to disagree with GRRM. Seasons are totally linked with the revolution of Earth around the Sun, and so is the length of the days, which is noted in the books (days grow shorter in autumn). It would have make more sense if a complete cycle of seasons had lasted one revolution around the sun.

True, but only to an extent. The closer you are to the equator the less "seasons" there are...

The ancients didn't just leave it at 4 seasons equal a year, they could see apparent motion of the sun and the stars and conclude there was a set cycle.

The same would be in westeros. They could not use the erratic season as a time piece so they would look at the motion of the sun and stars and find a pattern. That pattern would become the months and years...

As for the seasons they are indeed magical in nature and one of the questions hat will be answered in the upcoming books.

[Fanless Mace]

In a book with dragons, re-animated dead people, giants, etc. (and no smoking pipes or anything like - that one is hard for me to swallow!), is it really so hard to accept that the seasons don't match the turning of the planet? Great plot device, and I hope indeed the denouement helps explain the magic behind this aspect.

[Mychel_Redfort]

True, but only to an extent. The closer you are to the equator the less "seasons" there are...

We don't know exactly where is the temperate area in Westeros. The seasons must be less marked in Dorne. But on the other side, there's been no mention of days without nights in the Far North during summer!

The ancients didn't just leave it at 4 seasons equal a year, they could see apparent motion of the sun and the stars and conclude there was a set cycle.

The same would be in westeros. They could not use the erratic season as a time piece so they would look at the motion of the sun and stars and find a pattern. That pattern would become the months and years...

But the seasons haven't always been disturbed. Before the magical event that upset them, the cycle of seasons must have lasted a year for a long time, enough for the months and the duration of a year to be established.

[pdxbucky]

But I have to disagree with GRRM. Seasons are totally linked with the revolution of Earth around the Sun, and so is the length of the days, which is noted in the books (days grow shorter in autumn). It would have make more sense if a complete cycle of seasons had lasted one revolution around the sun.

Well, seasons are actually linked to the tilt of the earth's axis relative to the sun. When the relative hemisphere is closer to/farther from the sun due to this tilt, that hemisphere has summer/winter. If GRRM's planet has no tilt to its axis relative to its star, it would free up seasonal changes to be completely dependent on something else. I always thought of the seasons as geological ages (like the "Ice Age") on a mini-mini scale or that the planet's tilt periodically (randomly?) changes, but magic works too, there are dragons after all.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Well, seasons are actually linked to the tilt of the earth's axis relative to the sun. When the relative hemisphere is closer to/farther from the sun due to this tilt, that hemisphere has summer/winter.

You're of course right. I just wanted to point that there was a link between the revolution of Earth around the Sun and the seasons, as you showed, but not that it was the only one.

If GRRM's planet has no tilt to its axis relative to its star, it would free up seasonal changes to be completely dependent on something else. I always thought of the seasons as geological ages (like the "Ice Age") on a mini-mini scale or that the planet's tilt periodically (randomly?) changes, but magic works too, there are dragons after all.

Actually, for instance for a summer to last a whole year, with Earth doing a whole revolution around the Sun, the angle of the tilt could stay the same, it's the orientation of the axe that would have to always point toward the Sun, no?

[TemtnF8]

A slight wobble on the axis easily explains the seasonal changes, but complicates other things like tracking celestial events, and oceanic navigation. Just stick with "it's magic" because that's what GRRM says..

[Raving Stark the Mad]

They can simply designate a year to last a certain number of days. As long as the world keeps turning they can count days independently from seasons. Though why you would choose an arbitrary number of days to constitute a "year" is beyond me, since in our world the "year" is indelibly linked to a full rotation of seasons. You can use the astronomical argument, and say they can use the stars to realize they have gone around the sun one time, but why make that a "year"?

[Mychel_Redfort]

A slight wobble on the axis easily explains the seasonal changes, but complicates other things like tracking celestial events, and oceanic navigation. Just stick with "it's magic" because that's what GRRM says..

Magic is involved, it's plain. But there's also a functional astronomy, learned by the future maesters in Oldtown, so it doesn't seem absurd to think the magic added an unknown but determinable element to the "celestial mechanics", and that we can try to find it.

They can simply designate a year to last a certain number of days. As long as the world keeps turning they can count days independently from seasons. Though why you would choose an arbitrary number of days to constitute a "year" is beyond me, since in our world the "year" is indelibly linked to a full rotation of seasons. You can use the astronomical argument, and say they can use the stars to realize they have gone around the sun one time, but why make that a "year"?

It could be a reminiscence of the times before the magical event that disturbed the seasons, a time when a cycle of seasons lasted indeed a year.

[TemtnF8]

They can simply designate a year to last a certain number of days. As long as the world keeps turning they can count days independently from seasons. Though why you would choose an arbitrary number of days to constitute a "year" is beyond me, since in our world the "year" is indelibly linked to a full rotation of seasons. You can use the astronomical argument, and say they can use the stars to realize they have gone around the sun one time, but why make that a "year"?

Because that's what our ancestors did? The mayans, who lived near the equator and didn't really experience much difference in seasons, knew how long a year was. And far more accurately (and earlier) than their European counterparts, I might add...

[Rosavel Rusannn]

We are also dealing with a population that is less learned scientifically than the real world we live in today. There is probably a lot of estimation involved in marking the passage of time. Arya mentions in one of her chapters that she is not sure if she is still 10 or 11 because in braavos days and years are counted differently than they are in westeros

[Mychel_Redfort]

We are also dealing with a population that is less learned scientifically than the real world we live in today. There is probably a lot of estimation involved in marking the passage of time. Arya mentions in one of her chapters that she is not sure if she is still 10 or 11 because in braavos days and years are counted differently than they are in westeros

Rhaenys_Targaryen judiciously pointed that it probably means the Braavosi have a different date for the new year than the Westerosi, but both calendars are lunar-based.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Because that's what our ancestors did? The mayans, who lived near the equator and didn't really experience much difference in seasons, knew how long a year was. And far more accurately (and earlier) than their European counterparts, I might add...

Just because you live near the equator doesn't mean you don't have seasons. Like most tropical areas they have a wet and a dry season, linked to the solar year. The Egyptians had three seasons.

The Mayan calendar may not exactly be the best example since they had two different calendars. One that corresponded to the solar year, and another religious calendar that corresponded to a 260 day year.

I'm sure there is some reason behind the existence of years in Westeros/Essos, and astronomy seems as good a reason as any.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Actually, for instance for a summer to last a whole year, with Earth doing a whole revolution around the Sun, the angle of the tilt could stay the same, it's the orientation of the axe that would have to always point toward the Sun, no?

I've been thinking about it and it can't work like this. If Planetos's axe of rotation kept pointing toward the sun, the polar star (intersection of the axe with the celestial sphere) would move during the year. Yet Jon has learned the polar star is in the Ice Dragon, and there's no mention of any movement (and it was already there in the Dunk and Egg's stories 80 years ago).