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how can they not do the Manderly sub plot


RSMITTY7640

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It really depends on the outcome of the battle for winterfell in the books. If the Manderly subplot fails in the end, D&D may choose to leave it out all together. They haven't really given many other northern lords faces as of right now in the show, so they could leave most of them out especially if the subplot means nothing.


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Eh. Criticism is easy.

Do a thought experiment of an adaptation. Really, do it. Janicia has already started, but do it. Start from Theon's plot, which is at the core of Winterfell. Which scenes are necessary? How would you spread them across the season to have a balanced plot? In how many episodes would you put them?

Do it while remembering that there are at least three, and possibly up to six, at least partly mutually interdependent plots in the North that have to be spread over episodes (Jon, Stannis, Winterfell; Sam, Davos, Yara). Theon's plot will depend in part at least on Jon's.

Do it while remembering that there is about a million of other subplots clamouring for showtime. Time's not an unlimited resource.

Also, there is a huge difference between the show and the books in that in the books, Stannis leaves the Wall and Jon sends out Mance before the Boltons get to Winterfell. In the show, the Boltons are already almost at Winterfell, but Jon hasn't even taken charge of the Wall yet.

Try to do it. I think if you put yourself in the showrunners' shoes, it will become pretty obvious why they should strive for simplicity. You shouldn't really start from a maximising position, but a minimising one - which scenes are really necessary? Not cool; necessary?

I can't "really" do it, because I don't know the end of the story, so I don't know whether Manderly never shows up again or if he's integral to the Starks retaking Winterfell and the North.

Visually and action wise, there isn't much to Theon's winterfell arc. He goes there. There is the wedding. People start to die. The lords start fighting. Theon and Jeyne escape, Mance is captured.

Theon in the godswood, Lady Dustin and Theon on the crypts, Manderly and Frey pies, none of that is critical to the "action" or the plot.

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Try to do it. I think if you put yourself in the showrunners' shoes, it will become pretty obvious why they should strive for simplicity. You shouldn't really start from a maximising position, but a minimising one - which scenes are really necessary? Not cool; necessary?

I've put myself in their shoes: the northern plot needs a way for characters to wear less clothes and show more skin in the cold, could we change the famous motto to "Winter is Getting Hot!"? We also need more snarky one-liners and younger, more attractive characters, maybe merge the North and Dorne into the same place and merge all the lords from both places into a couple of young, hip & attractive characters like Arianne and Darkstar.

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I've put myself in their shoes: the northern plot needs a way for characters to wear less clothes and show more skin in the cold, could we change the famous motto to "Winter is Getting Hot!"? We also need more snarky one-liners and younger, more attractive characters, maybe merge the North and Dorne into the same place and merge all the lords from both places into a couple of young, hip & attractive characters like Arianne and Darkstar.

Haha, no. That's like the definition of ill thought.

What I meant is, there are tons of things that have to happen in Theon's storyline.

- the Boltons have to accommodate themselves in Winterfell.

- Jon has to learn about that, and send someone (the spearwives) out.

- the spearwives have to travel to Winterfell. Presumably, there has be an episode without scenes from this arc, to indicate passing time.

- there should be a marriage of some kind. That can happen while the spearwives travel.

- the spearwives have to infiltrate Winterfell and establish contact with Theon.

- Theon has to have a change of heart in a weirwood.

- the escape has to happen.

That's five-six episodes already, which is about the length of a complete season for a storyline that isn't Dany, Jon or Tyrion. Now, you have a choice: either Manderly enters Winterfell early in the season, which leaves plenty of space and time for his wedding antics, or he enters it late and the wedding is pushed forward in the season (that would create a huge, awkward gap, which is why it's not happening), or he enters separately after the wedding - which intrudes on the spearwife infiltration subplot going on, takes away from Theon and just feels... weird.

The Davos chapters occur in the books, and Jon in the books sends out Mance, before the Boltons move to Winterfell. In the show, the order is reversed.

Just try to think a bit about how to balance the load over a season, and you'll see there is just no space to fit WH without making it extremely awkward, that's all.

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Because as of right now he isn't that important? What has he done at this point to advance the plot?



1) Told Davos where Rickon is-easily handled in other ways


2) Created tension in WF- Again, easily handled other ways


3)??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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I barely remember the Manderlys from the books so it is best they cut out all this boring insignificant stuff :cheers:

I feel nauseated after reading that. Wow. "The North remembers, Ser Davos. My son is home" ring any bells? One of the best chapters of the last two books? Lord Wyman is a boss. Him and his Frey pies cement that fact.

Wow.

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Anyone can bake a pie and put Freys in it. Even the Umbers, who we already met in season 1 and who the show made sure to mention in season 3...while it's fun to see a fat guy joke about eating pies and ratcooks and all that good stuff it'd take a lot of time to just introduce him. It's better to give his role to characters we are already aware of.


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Tyrion already commented on the north remembering during season 4. No need to redo this quote with another character.

If they can insert the TRoC to any brothel/singer/Lannister/Frey scene I'm sure they can drop a quote that lays the groundwork for the story going forward another couple of times from different perspectives.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Including the Northern conspiracies will be too cumbersome for a show that is getting complex enough for non-book readers



If they are willing to cut Manderly they will simplify the North into 3 loose factions, being Stannis with Mance as a sub-aspect, Boltons and presumably the Umbers in the Stark loyalist role given Greatjon has already been introduced and will give continuity. Maybe the Karstarks can fill in for Lady Dustin but I doubt it, she and whatever the Ryswells are doing will be out



I think it's more important to have Mance in there than Maderly or Dustin. Connects events to the Wall



They seem to be focusing more on introducing the Dornish and the High Sparrow, given this is a bit easier because it mixes in with well established characters.



Overall there will be a north/south split



North:


Jon Snow featuring Tormund and Melisandre at the Wall


Sam, Gilly Aemon to go on a side quest ala Jaimie and Brienne and then Pod and Brienne, there always seems to be two characters having comical adventures with eachother, think North then to Oldtown


Stannis featuring Melisandre and Mance in the north at the Wall and then Yarasha in the north...


Boltons featuring Umbers and Theon at Winterfell (and then Mance)



South


Sansa/Baelish featuring Sweetrobin in the Vale


Cersei featuring High Sparrow and Margaery in KL


Doran/Sand Snakes/Ellaria featuring Jaime, Bronn and Myrcella/One Direction in Dorne

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  • 2 weeks later...

I definitely think the Umbers would be the likely House candidate to merge a few of the storylines. They've already been mentioned a few times outside of Greatjon's little bit, more specifically when Bran and Rickon split. Lady Dustin would be 50/50 for a Season 6 introduction.


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As much as I love Manderly's multiple momentous moments in Dance, I won't be totally heartbroken if his role is taken up by the Greatjon or another Umber. There's just too much in Swords/Feast/Dance to realistically expect anybody to merge perfectly. "The North Remembers" speech is meant to be on screen, but it can be made by any character. It would have more punch coming from an assumed Stark traitor revealing is true colors though.


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This statement has me mortified.

I feel nauseated after reading that. Wow. "The North remembers, Ser Davos. My son is home" ring any bells? One of the best chapters of the last two books? Lord Wyman is a boss. Him and his Frey pies cement that fact.

Wow.

Haha I know right? I can't imagine how much more boring ADWD would've been without Manderly. I think that person just didn't read ADWD.

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