Daenerys Stormborn - A Re-read Project Part VI: ADWD

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

Just caught up. What a great re-read series :-) . Great work guys!

I have learnt so much. Nice to see the magical nature of Daenerys being explained and solidified and why she is probably one of the most complex and detailed characters in the books.

After years of fighting with people on this forum who called her insane, a villain, a slut, a brat, an atrocious human being - its good to see that I was not crazy in my defence of her :-) .

#TeamKhaleesi Forever :-) .

[MoIaF]

Just caught up. What a great re-read series :-) . Great work guys!

I have learnt so much. Nice to see the magical nature of Daenerys being explained and solidified and why she is probably one of the most complex and detailed characters in the books.

After years of fighting with people on this forum who called her insane, a villain, a slut, a brat, an atrocious human being - its good to see that I was not crazy in my defence of her :-) .

Thank you so much! I'm really glad you enjoyed it, everyone worked really hard and provided really great analysis.

#TeamKhaleesi Forever :-) .

Times two! :agree:

[Ser Creighton]

@SC

Bullet point style response given that I too am in hiding from family.

First, an apology because I read back my response and realized I was rather snippy in my response above. Blame holidays, working retail, and probably more than those other factors, a trend I see in the forums at large: Dany, and everything she wants or has, is only for Jon. Dany's claim is really Jon's (not something I wholly disagree with as you know), Dany's dragons are really just being held for Jon (especially Drogon), Dany will simply die or sit on her ass while Saint Jon Snow, the most special snowflake on Planetos, goes off to save the world all by himself. It...irks me to a great extent both as a Dany fan and as a Jon fan that Dany's importance to ASOIAF gets relegated to "just for Jon." So it's very possible that I misread your long post up thread as "this chapter is important cause RLJ" and took what you said the wrong way and it triggered an irritation that has been brewing for awhile now (though, of course not at you specifically. Story time with Ser Creighton is still my favorite!)

Ok, now that that was out of the way, on to something else

I get your opinion, and I'll briefly give mine. I think a whip (which already has a negative connotation imbued because of our cultural understanding of what it has meant for our own history) is simply a tool. It in and of itself is neither good nor evil. It's a tool and it's "goodness" or "evil" is based on the person wielding it. When the Masters use it, it's a tool of oppression and hatred and vile slavery. But when Dany uses it in the same manner (striking another person) it turns into a symbol of her freeing the slaves and defending them against what the whip was previously used for. A whip (and any weapon) is like a dragon, neither good nor evil until it has a rider or someone controlling it and then we see what it and the person are.

I don't think there is any good form of slavery and I certainly don't think Martin is trying to make a case otherwise..in fact, at the risk of trying to get you to read my stuff, I did Tyrion XI for the re-read where I discussed a lot of Martin's own views on slavery by the way he set up slave to slave relation. But when Dany uses the whip both in Astapor and the pit she isn't using it to oppress anyone...she's using it to first save the slaves and second save the people of Meereen from being dragon food. (She's also mastering Drogon which is also mastering herself, making the decision to be the dragon, not some Harpy-As-Dragon or whatnot--I think it's a totally empowering moment and her loss of the whip isn't about the rejection of the slaver's morality or deciding not to be like them it's about her and Drogon's relationship)

No, you have no reason to apologize, it was clearly a misunderstanding. I am going to hold to my stance on the whips symbolically speaking. As a symbol I don't think it is very good, and my own belief is that slavery is going to be a much bigger part of the story with the Others, and Dany stands against that. You have Dany and her quest for Freedom and the Others are very much about Thralls. You have a natural polarity there, and I don't think we will see Dany using whips again. As for Drogon and Jon, I am very certain that was misinterpreted, now I purposfully left it open to interpretation, but for a reason. I will address that with my reply to MoIaF. I actually understand the confusion, and you may have suspected I was saying Drogon belongs with Jon. I get where you could have thought that, but I actually do not believe that and I took for granted that you and others would know my stance there.

Hey Creighton!

I thought I'd add my two cents before you post your reply. Although I agree with much of what you wrote there are two points in which I'm in disagreement.

First:

I don't believe these two things Dany loosing herself and locking aaa her power are mutually exclusive. they actually go hand in hand. The dragon are not only representative of herself they are a physical representation of the power she can wield if she so choses to. She basically puts away her greatest weapon in fear that she cannot control it.

From the text:

"In some of those pyramids, the Sons of the Harpy are plotting new murders even now, and I am powerless to stop them."

~~*~~

“They are mocking me to my face, making a show of how powerless I am to stop them.”

Is she truly powerless to stop them or is she allowing herself to be powerless because she refuses to let loose the dragons. She can stop them if she releases her dragons and asserts her authority once again but she is choosing not to in fear. Nw, the dragons are a representation of herself, she has locked herself away, she's forgotten who she is and her purpose.

Not only are the dragons are great weapon but they are also a symbol. Her people continued to follow her even though she had locked away her dragons but her enemies stopped fearing her. That's a problem, you do need a carrot when ruling but you also need a stick.

Second point:

So, I actually have a different interpretation of this as well. It's interesting that we all read this and see different things in it. I'm not sure if we are all right or all wrong but the text is open to interpretation. During the re-read when this chapter was review I put forward my interpretaiton:

Tyrion ADWD:

"The next evening they came upon a huge Valyrian sphinx crouched beside the road. It had a dragons body and a womans face. A dragon queen, said Tyrion. A pleasant omen. Her king is missing. Illyrio pointed out the smooth stone plinth on which the second sphinx once stood, now grown over with moss and flowering vines. The horselords built wooden wheels beneath him and dragged him back to Vaes Dothrak.

Dany X ADWD

"The grass swayed and bowed low, as if before a king, but no king appeared to her."

~~~*~~~

"When the sound of his hooves had faded away to silence, she began to shout. She called until her voice was hoarse and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him."

The grass bowing to Dany's right where a king would stand and then bowing down to Drogon (a king amongst dragons?) shows us what Dany has been missing. During Tyrion's travels he saw one half of a couple of Valyrian sphinxes, the king missing taken to Vaes Dothrak. Dany's true king has been missing, he has fled tot he Dothraki sea.

After the events in Daznea's Pit and the flight the matching pair of Valyrian sphinxes king and queen are reunited in the Dothraki sea. This also might correspond to the matching pair of rider and dragon or as represented by the Valyrian sphinx half person and half dragon. As Dany thought during her flight, on dragon's back she felt whole. Like the Valyrian sphinx Tyrion saw half woman and half dragon.

Sorry you must have been writing this while I was writing mine and I did not see this till today. We have talked about this before and the Sphinx a few times and I don't disagree with it. But as you say we may all be right or wrong. Well that is because Martin works in layers. You will get more out of it that just the literal, and foreshadowing, symbolism, themes, it's like the title of the series, there is a lot to what we read, that has many layers to it as well.

So what I was alluding to was not about Jon gettinng Drogon or anything like that, though I said mount. The mount was not about Jon riding Drogon. I firmly believe that is Dany's dragon. Now I was alluding to of course the king and mounts and you kind of touch on that missing king thing don't you. I am in full agreement he is missing. So I will show you what I was getting at.

As Drogon can be interpreted as alluding to being a King there. Jon also shares that aspect of the dragon, among others. Dany and Drogo with the Sun and the moon theme make Dragons, and it's very similar to R+L=J. Again you would end up with a dragon just a different sort of Dragon. Drogon of course was missing as well and Queen Dany is missing a King. A dragon riding king or Sphinx so to speak and you know how I feel about Jon and the missing Sphinx. If Jon in fact will ever ride a Dragon, you can easily metaphor Jon as half man and half dragon, just like Dany. What I was alluding to with the mounts is prophecy, not Jon riding Drogon. But rather Dany riding a different sort of mount? You know ummm, one ot bed, one to dread and one to??? You know, it was ummm not about the kind of riding she does with Drogon, but a different sort of riding, with an unnamed King whos name may sound like Ron. That water would be a theme of that union.

Look what I am getting to is it's about love, and a union. And actually let me just say that I read some people saying that this kind of union is stupid. But they also loved R+L=J. It's the exact same principle. Not saying it happened here but I have seen it on the boards.

On a different note have you explored Dany's walk in the stream to Bloodraves explanation of time to Bran? Dany going in one to direction if I look back I am lost. Moving forward. There may also be something intresting in there with the Trident and Tyrion on his boat ride. There is also the idea of what ice does to water, freezing it, stopping it. Like a night that never ends seems very stagnant, like winter, frozen in time, Coldhands, not really getting any older, none of the Thralls appear to be celebrating birthdays. Probably get hit with Ice whips if they did, mental Ice whips. I mean you can't really make an Ice whip it would just be a really long icicle though I suppose you could hit a thrall with it, though it will probably break. Plus that's really just an ice lance, so mental Ice whips.

Now it appears I am going to have to do a story for BQ. Well I suppose I did say I would do a chapter 2 of Starg Trek. Though nobody get upset if Jon and Dany are on a Magic Dragon ride together. It's a musical parody after all, I have to have a duet and I am not, not going to use a dragon if I have one available.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

When does our next re-read start again?

Happy 2015 everyone !!!!

[MoIaF]

When does our next re-read start again?

Happy 2015 everyone !!!!

Silly rabbit - the thread open yesterday.

See here: The Parallel Journey of Daenerys Targaryen & ...

THANK YOU AND HAPPY 2015 TO YOU TOO!!!!

[MoIaF]

Sorry you must have been writing this while I was writing mine and I did not see this till today. We have talked about this before and the Sphinx a few times and I don't disagree with it. But as you say we may all be right or wrong. Well that is because Martin works in layers. You will get more out of it that just the literal, and foreshadowing, symbolism, themes, it's like the title of the series, there is a lot to what we read, that has many layers to it as well.

So what I was alluding to was not about Jon gettinng Drogon or anything like that, though I said mount. The mount was not about Jon riding Drogon. I firmly believe that is Dany's dragon. Now I was alluding to of course the king and mounts and you kind of touch on that missing king thing don't you. I am in full agreement he is missing. So I will show you what I was getting at.

As Drogon can be interpreted as alluding to being a King there. Jon also shares that aspect of the dragon, among others. Dany and Drogo with the Sun and the moon theme make Dragons, and it's very similar to R+L=J. Again you would end up with a dragon just a different sort of Dragon. Drogon of course was missing as well and Queen Dany is missing a King. A dragon riding king or Sphinx so to speak and you know how I feel about Jon and the missing Sphinx. If Jon in fact will ever ride a Dragon, you can easily metaphor Jon as half man and half dragon, just like Dany. What I was alluding to with the mounts is prophecy, not Jon riding Drogon. But rather Dany riding a different sort of mount? You know ummm, one ot bed, one to dread and one to??? You know, it was ummm not about the kind of riding she does with Drogon, but a different sort of riding, with an unnamed King whos name may sound like Ron. That water would be a theme of that union.

Look what I am getting to is it's about love, and a union. And actually let me just say that I read some people saying that this kind of union is stupid. But they also loved R+L=J. It's the exact same principle. Not saying it happened here but I have seen it on the boards.

On a different note have you explored Dany's walk in the stream to Bloodraves explanation of time to Bran? Dany going in one to direction if I look back I am lost. Moving forward. There may also be something intresting in there with the Trident and Tyrion on his boat ride. There is also the idea of what ice does to water, freezing it, stopping it. Like a night that never ends seems very stagnant, like winter, frozen in time, Coldhands, not really getting any older, none of the Thralls appear to be celebrating birthdays. Probably get hit with Ice whips if they did, mental Ice whips. I mean you can't really make an Ice whip it would just be a really long icicle though I suppose you could hit a thrall with it, though it will probably break. Plus that's really just an ice lance, so mental Ice whips.

Now it appears I am going to have to do a story for BQ. Well I suppose I did say I would do a chapter 2 of Starg Trek. Though nobody get upset if Jon and Dany are on a Magic Dragon ride together. It's a musical parody after all, I have to have a duet and I am not, not going to use a dragon if I have one available.

I see!

I can definitely see where the correlations with Dany having a king, "a mount to love", and associating that with Jon.

These two characters are certainly having parallels arcs and are in as you say mirrored images of one another. I get a little defensive of the whole Jon will take Drogon shenanigans because their are so against the story Martin is telling us with his whole bonding dance between Dany and Drogon. However, mayhap and I was worng about there not being a link between Jon getting stabbed in the back and Drogon getting pierced in the back. Perhaps it's not that Jon will ride Drogon but that Dany will, well, ah, mount Jon as she mounted Drogon. :D

[MoIaF]

Announcement

Hi all! There is an excellent essay at The Tower of The Hand regarding Dany's time in Meereen. It makes a lot of excellent point which we touched upon in this re-read. If you want to discuss afterwards, I'm open for another Dany ADWD (because apparently I don't have enough to discuss). You can find the essay at this link: http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2015/02/01-laboratory-of-politics-part-vi/noscript.html

[bemused]

I agree, really excellent essay.

[Fire Eater]

Some random thought I would like to add. Dany being the SWMtW, or khal of khals would fit given horses are the heart of the Dothraki culture. As the SWMtW title suggests, the Dothraki are expecting a male leader given stallions are male horses. However, it should be noted that in a horse herd, it is always a mare who leads the herd, not a stallion, and a woman leading the Dothraki khalasars fits the horse ethos better than a man.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Some random thought I would like to add. Dany being the SWMtW, or khal of khals would fit given horses are the heart of the Dothraki culture. As the SWMtW title suggests, the Dothraki are expecting a male leader given stallions are male horses. However, it should be noted that in a horse herd, it is always a mare who leads the herd, not a stallion, and a woman leading the Dothraki khalasars fits the horse ethos better than a man.

Wow that's a very interesting way to look at it, a female must lead the herd. It's interesting that several of the prophecies are being interpreted wrongly because of societal norms like, males always being the ones meant to lead in those times.

[Drogonthedread]

All three prophecies AA TPTWP and TSWMTW all three have one thing in common i.e., gender reversal

TPTWP- everyone is looking for a prince but not for princess ...Rhaegar was believed to be tptwp the last dragon ...until dany who is the LAst Dragon born

TSWMTW - dosh khalleen thinks that it will be Rhego but fail to consider it could be dany ...

AA- Where AA sacrifices Nissa Nissa ...dany reverses the role by killing her sun and stars

iam starting to believe that Mel's vision about

Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning... burning Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash

is actually about Viserys

and if connect Rhaegar viserys and Rhaego ... we get the following daughter of death prophecy

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death

[MoIaF]

Some random thought I would like to add. Dany being the SWMtW, or khal of khals would fit given horses are the heart of the Dothraki culture. As the SWMtW title suggests, the Dothraki are expecting a male leader given stallions are male horses. However, it should be noted that in a horse herd, it is always a mare who leads the herd, not a stallion, and a woman leading the Dothraki khalasars fits the horse ethos better than a man.

Very interesting, thank you for sharing. I did not know that.

All three prophecies AA TPTWP and TSWMTW all three have one thing in common i.e., gender reversal

TPTWP- everyone is looking for a prince but not for princess ...Rhaegar was believed to be tptwp the last dragon ...until dany who is the LAst Dragon born

TSWMTW - dosh khalleen thinks that it will be Rhego but fail to consider it could be dany ...

AA- Where AA sacrifices Nissa Nissa ...dany reverses the role by killing her sun and stars

iam starting to believe that Mel's vision about

is actually about Viserys

and if connect Rhaegar viserys and Rhaego ... we get the following daughter of death prophecy

All very excellent points. I especially like the catch of Mel's vision actually being abut Viserys. Very nicely done! :thumbsup:

[Kyoshi]

Nice catches.