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In Defense of Rickard Karstark


Modelex

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“It has always been so. I am not . . . I am not a cruel man, Ser Davos. You know me. Have known me long. This is not my decree. It has always been so, since Aegon’s day and before. Daemon Blackfyre, the brothers Toyne, the Vulture King, Grand Maester Hareth . . . traitors have always paid with their lives . . . even Rhaenyra Targaryen. She was daughter to one king and mother to two more, yet she died a traitor’s death for trying to usurp her brother’s crown. It is law. Law, Davos. Not cruelty.”

This quote helps establish three things

1) Traitors have always paid with their lives

2) There are no gradations of treason (all these peole are guilty of crimes ranging from rebelling to simply sleeping with the King's mistress). Treason is an all or nothing event; once an action reaches a treason threshold it is met with death

3) In the eyes of the law, familial connections are not considered when assessing treason and meting out the appropriate punishment

So then I ask, why is it considered fair or lawful that Catelyn for committing what some consider "lesser" treason is allowed to walk away with her life whilst Karstark was not? This is a double standard by any measurement, and an indefensible one at that given what punishment Catelyn does end up recieving much later (a comfortable vacation!). So then why was Karstark executed? Because it clearly wasn't to be a lawful King. He should have pardoned him if Catelyn was being pardoned, since the law did not matter in the first case at all.

So what other arguement can be made for why Karstark deserved to die? Well you can say that Robb needed to regain his honor as a King... even though this is pointless as his honor has been tarnished by his oathbreaking. You can also argue that he needed to regain control of his army and position as an authority figure who is not to be trifled with... even though he is unable to defend his own homeland (the Ironborn are raiding it with impunity) and everyone knows it. Therefore the idea that morale was an issue then makes no sense as it was already at a lowpoint. Then you can say he needed to do it in order to keep Northern prisoners safe... even though they are treated absolutely terribly regardless of this fact (see the Northern prisonerd at Harrenhal, Sansa's forced marriage and for all he knows rape etc.). And we see that Karstark's execution did absolutely nothing to change any of this

And then there is the morality issue of the fact that Karstark killed some children and some guards; it's war people are going to die in it. By waging war, Robb is complicit in the deaths of thousands of men and children. These boys/men are casualties that will grow if Lords are being killed willy nilly and their levies irrecoverable once this happens, as these now free men will raid and kill across the countryside with no Lord to keep them from doing so. If Karstark were pardoned, the levies could have been recovered later after he calmed down. And we see later that Karstark men are killing people in the Riverlands. So all executing Karstark did was lose the only chance for these men to be brought back to heel and indirectly increased the loss of life

So we can conclude thusly that Rickard's execution was a big mistake in a legal and practical context, and hypocritical by a moral standard. Indeed, the North could benefit from having someone like Rickard Karstark still around

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Beheading karstark was a huge blunder; Robbie should have put the wellbeing of the north and riverlands before his highbrowed honor.

And yeah letting Catelyn go and her total denial that it was motivated by grief really makes you feel less bad for the Starks; they made huge mistakes from emotional standpoints and lost their lives and basically set their dynasty and country back ten years, or more.

Cat letting Jaime go and thus losing their best hostage, Robb marrying Jeyne and spurning the Freys, and the beheading of karstark sealed their fates. There was already plotting against then from inside, but to me at least its clear they could have kept the other forces in check without these mistakes. They still probably would have lost, but at least they'd have had a shot.

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A king can pardon a traitor. And kinslaying is a sin.

Yeah but to pardon one and kill the other in this situation was a huge double standard. Robb only pardoned Cat because he himself felt guilty for marrying Jeyne, he should also have set his honour aside for Karstark and pardoned him, because it might've stopped his campaign from crumbling, although he'd already made too many political errors unfortunately. Also Stark and Karstark are kin, so he was still a kinslayer technically in the end. And if he was unwilling to kill Cat but felt he must because she was a traitor then he could have used a headsman just once maybe?

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Not saying I completely disagree with you, but as far as troops go Rickard wasn't a huge loss.

I think its more the morale blow and your lords saying "Umm wow this guy is beheading fathers in the throes of their grief who made a mistake, while he let's his mother go after she commits the same treason basically. Yeeeeaaaahhh let's get in touchwith Tywin"

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Not saying I completely disagree with you, but as far as troops go Rickard wasn't a huge loss.

I wasn't referring to the troops.

I think its more the morale blow and your lords saying "Umm wow this guy is beheading fathers in the throes of their grief who made a mistake, while he let's his mother go after she commits the same treason basically. Yeeeeaaaahhh let's get in touchwith Tywin"

this.

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Not saying I completely disagree with you, but as far as troops go Rickard wasn't a huge loss.

It's much more than just troops, though. The moral of his men plummeted with all the turmoil it caused, on top of his hypocracy with his mother and the Freys... :)

Edit: Double ninja'd :ninja: :ninja:

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It's much more than just troops, though. The moral of his men plummeted with all the turmoil it caused, on top of his hypocracy with his mother and the Freys... :)

Edit: Double ninja'd :ninja: :ninja:

I agree.

I think its more the morale blow and your lords saying "Umm wow this guy is beheading fathers in the throes of their grief who made a mistake, while he let's his mother go after she commits the same treason basically. Yeeeeaaaahhh let's get in touchwith Tywin"

I somewhat agree.

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Rickard killed children against Robb's command. Rickard had to die.

Catelyn should have died as well then, as in terms of war crimes she was basically working with the Lannisters, who trusted the word of a guy she falsely accused, imprisoned, and was going to put to death, and then acts as if its perfectly reasonable behavior, that she isn't suffering from grief, and that Edmure is an idiot for going about things the way he did.

Loosing Jaime Lannister was the worst move that was made during the war; even if he had died it would have been a better outcome for house stark. Riverrun and the black fish holding Jaime likely could have prevented the red wedding, because then Tywin wouldnt have been so quick to sanction walder frey's and Bolton's actions.

I like Cat a lot as a character, and her counsel is usually good, but this was such a huge fuck up.

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I think Karstark should certainly at least have been offered death or the Wall.



EDIT: actually, it makes thematic sense for the fatally southern-oriented, half-Tully, auburn headed Young Wolf, the King Who Lost the North, the king who thinks he can easily free his brother from his vows at need, who has marched, Osha says, in the wrong direction, to forget the option of the Wall when it could have helped a lot.


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Catelyn should have died as well then, as in terms of war crimes she was basically working with the Lannisters, who trusted the word of a guy she falsely accused, imprisoned, and was going to put to death, and then acts as if its perfectly reasonable behavior, that she isn't suffering from grief, and that Edmure is an idiot for going about things the way he did.

Loosing Jaime Lannister was the worst move that was made during the war; even if he had died it would have been a better outcome for house stark. Riverrun and the black fish holding Jaime likely could have prevented the red wedding, because then Tywin wouldnt have been so quick to sanction walder frey's and Bolton's actions.

I like Cat a lot as a character, and her counsel is usually good, but this was such a huge fuck up.

I agree that as a leader for Robb it was a fuck up. However for me it's the same as with the Ned. Both live by a code, but when it's code against family, family wins. Can't hate them ;) ... unless it comes to them underestimating or blaming Edmure, then it's on :fencing: .

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Of what kinslaying are you talking about? If we would following this logic, anyone killing anyone would be a kinslayer because we all come from same monkey family.

Catelyn should have died as well then, as in terms of war crimes she was basically working with the Lannisters, who trusted the word of a guy she falsely accused, imprisoned, and was going to put to death, and then acts as if its perfectly reasonable behavior, that she isn't suffering from grief, and that Edmure is an idiot for going about things the way he did.

Loosing Jaime Lannister was the worst move that was made during the war; even if he had died it would have been a better outcome for house stark. Riverrun and the black fish holding Jaime likely could have prevented the red wedding, because then Tywin wouldnt have been so quick to sanction walder frey's and Bolton's actions.

I like Cat a lot as a character, and her counsel is usually good, but this was such a huge fuck up.

And who would follow Robb if he would have killed his own mother? Now, then he would be a kinslayer and instead of portion of his army, he would have lost entire of it. With exception of Karstark, none of the lords seem to have anything against Cat as she recieves quite the support from Umber, Mormont women, Blackfish.

And the biggest mistake is that Cat's action lead to RW. RW was already set and Cat releasing Jaime had nothing with it.

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I understand why Catelyn released Jaime but she really put Robb in a difficult position. Kinslaying is a terrible crime (even if he had have used a headsman he would still have been the one to put her to death). Being known for killing your own mother is not a great reputation to have. Not to mention the fact that he just couldn't do it because she's his Mum and he loved her.



Robb never calls Catelyn a traitor. He's the king, he makes the rules, he never calls it treason, so the penalty is not death. Her punishment was to be imprisoned comfortably but against her wishes in Seagard. Cat went against Robb's wishes but it was still an exchange of captives and had it worked they would have got the 'heir' to Winterfell back.



Neither the Greatjon or Maege Mormont had a problem with Cat releasing Jaime - they understood why she did it, as did Robb. To get her living daughters back Torrhen and Eddard died honourably in battle. Karstark was right to grieve but wrong to want vengeance and especially wrong to want vengeance against Tion Frey and Willem Lannister. Karstark was not a good man. I understand his anger at what Catelyn did and her apparent lack of punishment but that doesn't condone his actions.



Karstark thought he could get away it because Cat got no punishment but also because Robb was still young and therefore hadn't proven that he had it in him to behead one of his bannermen. Robb called his bluff. He had to do it or lose all credibility. People would have understood him not killing his own mother even if they muttered about it but if he had let Karstark get away with blatant treason and murder, he would have proven himself to be weak and would have been inviting his remaining lords to do whatever they wanted.


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Catelyn should have died as well then, as in terms of war crimes she was basically working with the Lannisters, who trusted the word of a guy she falsely accused, imprisoned, and was going to put to death, and then acts as if its perfectly reasonable behavior, that she isn't suffering from grief, and that Edmure is an idiot for going about things the way he did.

I don't think that she caused RW but I agree 100% with this. How what Cat did was not treason ia a mystery to me.

If you want to punish some for treason you have to do the same with the same way with the other one who has committed treason.

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