Heresy 136 The Heart of Darkness

[King of Winters]

Yes and once again I can't stress too highly the importance of reading Conrad, because I think that the Heart of Darkness really is the key to what's happening beyond the Wall. Bran is certainly intended as the replacement for the dying Kurtz, and while Kurtz ordered the ambush on the steamer to prevent his being taken away I'd suggest that Bloodraven was behind the ambush on the Scooby Gang to prevent Bran getting away.

As to what happens next I don't know. Perhaps Bran must kill Bloodraven to become Kurtz and then Jon kill Kurtz to end the horror, thereby dooming the children.

Perhaps as the Heart of Darkness was the wilderness, the Heart of Winter maybe the location Bran is in, or maybe just another interchangeable name for the dominion of the WW.

[Black Crow]

Perhaps as the Heart of Darkness was the wilderness, the Heart of Winter maybe the location Bran is in, or maybe just another interchangeable name for the dominion of the WW.

This is the sort of thing I'm leaning towards, with the caveat that GRRM has promised we will see something of the Lands of Always Winter in the next book. I do think though that the Heart of Winter business; the horror of it and the necessity for Bran to live is tied up both with the need to deal with/replace Kurtz and what will happen to him when he does.

[King of Winters]

This is the sort of thing I'm leaning towards, with the caveat that GRRM has promised we will see something of the Lands of Always Winter in the next book. I do think though that the Heart of Winter business; the horror of it and the necessity for Bran to live is tied up both with the need to deal with/replace Kurtz and what will happen to him when he does.

With Bran replacing Kutz/Bloodraven, I can't help but think Bloodraven knows what's coming, he could have done just what Bran is doing now, at one point. Therefore if Bloodraven got rid of his previous Kutz, he knows that Bran must become the new one soon.

[Black Crow]

With Bran replacing Kutz/Bloodraven, I can't help but think Bloodraven knows what's coming, he could have done just what Bran is doing now, at one point. Therefore if Bloodraven got rid of his previous Kutz, he knows that Bran must become the new one soon.

Up to a point, as I said in an earlier post there may be two options on this one. The children clearly require Bran to replace the dying Kurtz as their god/greenseer, but is it as simple as that or does the sane side of Bloodraven/Kurtz want the cycle to be broken?

[King of Winters]

Up to a point, as I said in an earlier post there may be two options on this one. The children clearly require Bran to replace the dying Kurtz as their god/greenseer, but is it as simple as that or does the sane side of Bloodraven/Kurtz want the cycle to be broken?

That would be interesting, and I see Bran, as a boy who does not wish to kill, helping Bloodravne break the cycle.

[alienarea]

Up to a point, as I said in an earlier post there may be two options on this one. The children clearly require Bran to replace the dying Kurtz as their god/greenseer, but is it as simple as that or does the sane side of Bloodraven/Kurtz want the cycle to be broken?

I can see this ending in Jon vs Bran with both of them dying (and after Arya's and Rickon's death the direwolves meet in Winterfell) and Daenery's taking back Westeros.

[alienarea]

double post

[King Tyrion XX]

I can see this ending in Jon vs Bran with both of them dying (and after Arya's and Rickon's death the direwolves meet in Winterfell) and Daenery's taking back Westeros.

Taking back Westeros? How can Dany take back something she never had?

[Black Crow]

Whether she ventures into the Smoking Sea of Valyria or not, I'd tend to see Dany as so closely mirroring Jon that if he is to play Willard and destroy Kurtz, she must destroy the dragons. To be honest I'm not at all sure how that would work out but while I am confident that Conrad's story provides the model for what's happening in the darkness beyond the Wall I think that if it is the case Dany's story arc will be independent of it.

[wolfmaid7]

Whether we use the terms corrupted, altered or changed doesn't really matter, because the point of Conrad's story is that the big bad is not something external, but that the darkness lies within and the demons made of snow and ice and cold* are not some icy Dothraki horde, but Craster's sons - humans.

Indeed in that context it might be argued that Ramsay Snow's hunting of maidens is not a reflection of of the white walkers, but that they reflect the evil within him.

* © Stannis Baratheon

Indirectly this is part of my point that causes the reservation and again going with the premise that Craster's sons are WWs; their hearts would not be corrupted because they were a blank slate.Their nature would be whatever it is the teachers at "ww daycare" taught them.Having darkness in one's heart is a process that comes from experiance and is learned.Plus Stannis calling them Demons again may not be an accurate description of what they are,that ideology is a biased one.

The reason i was specific to use the word alteration to descibe the physical change is because there would be no inward change taking place seeing as the sons, as i said before would have been a blank slate when taken so no corruption.Melisandre would be an example of one that was corrupted....Primary inward and maybe outward nature altered by maybe supernatural means.

Ah but once again this is something inherent in Conrad's story and why I would again urge anybody who hasn't re-read it lately to do so now, with ASoIF in mind. Good and evil are relative and darkness likewise, which is why Conrad invokes comparison with the Romans in Britain and is dealing with a clash of cultures and its consequences in which in GRRM's version arises from the intrusion of men into the forest culture of Westeros, just as Coppola transferred it to Vietnam.

I agree with this again this is what i'm getting at its relative and because we have yet to hear history from the side of the trees we don't know if and who is getting decieved and used.

Yes and once again I can't stress too highly the importance of reading Conrad, because I think that the Heart of Darkness really is the key to what's happening beyond the Wall. Bran is certainly intended as the replacement for the dying Kurtz, and while Kurtz ordered the ambush on the steamer to prevent his being taken away I'd suggest that Bloodraven was behind the ambush on the Scooby Gang to prevent Bran getting away.

As to what happens next I don't know. Perhaps Bran must kill Bloodraven to become Kurtz and then Jon kill Kurtz to end the horror, thereby dooming the children.

This is where i agree with the analogy and it is also where i put a greenseer type as the culprit if they are avatar's of the seasons and archetypes of the Oak and Holly knig as i believe. One of them has gone of the reservation and needs to be replaced.To me its the outgoing Holly King that needs to be diposed.

That would be interesting, and I see Bran, as a boy who does not wish to kill, helping Bloodravne break the cycle.

What cycle? to clarify.

[Black Crow]

What cycle? to clarify.

I presume he's talking in terms of each greenseer being replaced in his [or her] turn by another.

[King of Winters]

I presume he's talking in terms of each greenseer being replaced in his [or her] turn by another.

Yes, that's what I meant.

[wolfmaid7]

Ok gotcha.

[Armstark]

Indirectly this is part of my point that causes the reservation and again going with the premise that Craster's sons are WWs; their hearts would not be corrupted because they were a blank slate.Their nature would be whatever it is the teachers at "ww daycare" taught them.Having darkness in one's heart is a process that comes from experiance and is learned.Plus Stannis calling them Demons again may not be an accurate description of what they are,that ideology is a biased one.

I think it it important to clarify that there are different possibilities on how craster's sons become white walkers.

• They are turned (or taught as you said) into white walkers

They are only vessels for other, much older spirits.

I believe it is option two and thus it can't really be said that they are not corrupted, maybe their hearts are a blank slate but their minds are not.

Why option two? Because it fits with the concept of warging. They take babies because the babies minds are not strong and can be easily pushed away (like Hodor), allowing for full control. We also discussed the child-like behaviors of the white walkers in the past which fits perfectly when you consider that they are basically living in a child's mind and we know that the warg takes on characteristics of its host.

Despite not reading this Heart of Darkness story my thinking is much in line with BlackCrow, but I believe it is better to focus on the text itself and not so much on possible outside influences. And there are hints concerning the nature of the Heart of Winter in the text, there a just mostly ignored. We already know a heart that enables immortality, can contain multiple spirits and emits cold. Only its blue instead of white.

[QueenOfVibe]

@ wolfmaid 7 "ww daycare" -rotflol-

[Direwolf Blitzer]

From the last heresy, but it's locked, and I don't want to let a bon mot go unremarked:

So an equivalent to vandalism?

:lol:

[Black Crow]

From the last heresy, but it's locked, and I don't want to let a bon mot go unremarked:

:lol:

135 is still open for business if anybody has anything to contribute on the hammer, on Moat Cailin or whodunnit.

[Black Crow]

I think it it important to clarify that there are different possibilities on how craster's sons become white walkers.

• They are turned (or taught as you said) into white walkers

They are only vessels for other, much older spirits.

I believe it is option two and thus it can't really be said that they are not corrupted, maybe their hearts are a blank slate but their minds are not.

Why option two? Because it fits with the concept of warging. They take babies because the babies minds are not strong and can be easily pushed away (like Hodor), allowing for full control. We also discussed the child-like behaviors of the white walkers in the past which fits perfectly when you consider that they are basically living in a child's mind and we know that the warg takes on characteristics of its host.

Despite not reading this Heart of Darkness story my thinking is much in line with BlackCrow, but I believe it is better to focus on the text itself and not so much on possible outside influences. And there are hints concerning the nature of the Heart of Winter in the text, there a just mostly ignored. We already know a heart that enables immortality, can contain multiple spirits and emits cold. Only its blue instead of white.

I'm still with option 1 because unlike regular skinchanging we appear to be dealing not with a spirit taking on a living body, but with a spirit being thrust into a magically created simulacrum compounded of snow and ice and cold to give it life.

As to their behaviour, not only as we've discussed do they behave like child soldiers, but their old Dad wasn't exactly the embodiment of sweetness and light himself.

So far as the outside influences go, I do believe that they are extremely important, because they explain so much and in this case you really do need to read Heart of Darkness [go on - its a fairly short novella] to understand how GRRM is portraying what lies beyond the Wall. That, as we've discussed, isn't to say that the outcome will be exactly the same with only the names changed to hide the source, but it can't be ignored.

[wolfmaid7]

@ wolfmaid 7 "ww daycare" -rotflol-

We take ice coins when we take your brats :cool4:

I think it it important to clarify that there are different possibilities on how craster's sons become white walkers.

• They are turned (or taught as you said) into white walkers

They are only vessels for other, much older spirits.

I believe it is option two and thus it can't really be said that they are not corrupted, maybe their hearts are a blank slate but their minds are not.

Why option two? Because it fits with the concept of warging. They take babies because the babies minds are not strong and can be easily pushed away (like Hodor), allowing for full control. We also discussed the child-like behaviors of the white walkers in the past which fits perfectly when you consider that they are basically living in a child's mind and we know that the warg takes on characteristics of its host.

Despite not reading this Heart of Darkness story my thinking is much in line with BlackCrow, but I believe it is better to focus on the text itself and not so much on possible outside influences. And there are hints concerning the nature of the Heart of Winter in the text, there a just mostly ignored. We already know a heart that enables immortality, can contain multiple spirits and emits cold. Only its blue instead of white.

I'm not buying that old spirits are warging babies either Armstark and here's why given the "badassary" attributed to wws i see no reason why they won't be capable to overcome the mind of someone older in a weakened state. Their will be a lot of people weakened by hunger,cold who'll probably pass out in the snow,why not use them?

To be honest I've not seen any childlike behavior exhibited by the wws at all,they behave like warriors.Where is the behavior that one might called childish? Now given if your right and the babies are inhabited by older spirits and the reason these spirits took them over was because their minds would be weaker,then acting childish wouldn't be an issue.

Again i'm not dismissing the Heart of Darkness analogy i agree that can be a nice parallel if the person behind the zombies is a human corrupted.The issue is the ww comparison which to doesn't work for the reason pointed out above if they are Craster's.

I'm still with option 1 because unlike regular skinchanging we appear to be dealing not with a spirit taking on a living body, but with a spirit being thrust into a magically created simulacrum compounded of snow and ice and cold to give it life.

As to their behaviour, not only as we've discussed do they behave like child soldiers, but their old Dad wasn't exactly the embodiment of sweetness and light himself.

So far as the outside influences go, I do believe that they are extremely important, because they explain so much and in this case you really do need to read Heart of Darkness [go on - its a fairly short novella] to understand how GRRM is portraying what lies beyond the Wall. That, as we've discussed, isn't to say that the outcome will be exactly the same with only the names changed to hide the source, but it can't be ignored.

This, i don't get or see the bolded at all. I do see the Heart of Darkness in so far as what could happen with any of the Avatars that would be Oak and Holly king though.

[Urrax2]

..To be honest I've not seen any childlike behavior exhibited by the wws at all,they behave like warriors.Where is the behavior that one might called childish? ...

Agreed. The only item that could possibly be cited in support is the behavior of the popsicles with Ser Waymar; kind of like a scoutmaster with a troop of junior scouts. They watch while the scoutmaster shows how to slay a foe, then jump to stick their swords into what's left. But that's obviously just one interpretation and I think an improbable one.