Would You Die For Your Country

[Shryke]

You reaction is set because of the fact the millenia long concept of countries has been accepted as fact by like almost everyone. ;)

You know that nationalism is an fairly recent idea, yes? Like, a few hundred years old or so.

(Well, it's kinda more complicated then that with various theories and such, but what you think of as countries is a recent creation in human organization.)

[horizon]

A few hundred years, millennia, whatever. ;)

It is what the books & media tells you.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Horizion,

A few hundred years, millennia, whatever. ;)

It is what the books & media tells you.

There are other abstract concepts that have no tangible spaco-temperal existence that are quite useful as well, mathematics (for example), should mathematics be cast aside as useless because it has no tangible existence? Law is an abstract concept. Should we stop pretending as if law is any sort of limit to behavior? What about morals? Morals are abstract too, chuck it since it is abstract?

I'm not huge on "Nation-State uber Alles" either, but, to discard the idea merely because it is abstract is pretty ridiculous.

[Free Northman Reborn]

This idea that nationalism is a recent invention needs to be challenged.

I'm pretty sure the Spartans were fiercely patriotic about Sparta, as the Romans were of Rome, as the Carthaginians were about Carthage, the Egyptians about Egypt etc. etc.

Just because these entities were not modern nation states, but instead city states or Empires doesn't mean that the citizens of such lands took no pride in their kingdoms/tribal identities/empires.

Fighting to die for your ethno/cultural/religious/linguistic group is as old as civilization itself. Probably older.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Ninety-nine times out of a hundred, I'd say no. Unnecessary foreign entanglements (WWI, Vietnam), certainly not. Not even for situations where I'm called upon to die for my beliefs - as Bertrand Russell pointed out, I might be wrong.

But would I have signed up in WWII? Certainly. Would I be prepared to die if my country was invaded? Depends on the circumstances, and the nature of the occupying force.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RBPL,

Interesting, what if the invasion of NZ is justified but the behavior of the invading troops is unjustifiable?

[The Marquis de Leech]

RBPL,

Interesting, what if the invasion of NZ is justified but the behavior of the invading troops is unjustifiable?

What scenario are you envisaging? A New Zealand that goes crazy, tries to invade somewhere, gets slapped down and counter-invaded, with the occupying troops being horrible to the general population?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RBPL,

Pretty much.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Under that scenario, I'd like to think I would be one of the opponents of the regime trying that sort of military adventure.

However, I can think of a situation where I would (the scenario is absurd, but bear with me). Say in early 1938 the Savage Government had unilaterally declared war on Japan after the Rape of Nanjing, and then tried to attack Japan. Japan responds by invading and occupying New Zealand. Under that scenario, I would definitely be prepared to fight and die: the alternative being dying anyway.

[Arya kiddin']

Er, no. Not gonna happen.

[davos]

I am a pacifist or very nearly so. I abhore the use of military force or coersive violence both on the philosophical and practical levels. While I'm sure there are extraordinary circumstances where I might be forced to consider an exception to my principals, I do not foresee them, whatever they may be, coming to pass. I would like to believe that I would lay down my life for the right principle, but that I not something one can know for sure until one is presented with such a situation.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I'd still never die for America. But I will go up in flames fighting to help liberate Africa and the Americans who are kept down by the powers that be. I am also willing to die for the LGBTQ and feminist movement, even though I disagree with pretty much every feminist I've come across on some key issues.

[Nymeria10k]

Hell no. The UK isn't a country I'd die for.

I would die fighting to liberate Palestine though, Palestine is very close to my heart, having been there before.

I would die for Syria, for Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. Too many innocents have died and I'd give my life protecting the rest.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I'm not above collaborating with a foreign invader against America in a hypothetical invasion. I mean seeing as I can't serve in the military.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Ask not would you die for country, but would your country die for you!

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Nymeria,

I would die fighting to liberate Palestine though, Palestine is very close to my heart, having been there before.

What would the demographic make up of a liberated Palestine look like?

I would die for Syria, for Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan and so on. Too many innocents have died and I'd give my life protecting the rest.

For which faction in each of these war torn Nation-States would you be fighting?

[Born Yesterday]

"What is a country? A country is piece of land surrounded on all sides by boundaries, usually unnatural. Englishmen are dying for England, Americans are dying for America, Germans are dying for Germany, Russians are dying for Russia. Surely so many countries can’t all be worth dying for."

~ Joseph Heller, Catch-22

[The Notorious]

QUESTION

Would you die for your country?

Three tours in IRQ and AFG comprised my best and worst years -- the most incomparable periods of my life that will be difficult, if not impossible, to match before I die. But...remember, war is a racket. And...understand, war is the most paradoxical of paradoxes of human activity. I strongly recommend to all that it is a huge mistake to die for the State, though it is worth it to fight.

ANSWER

Would I DIE for the United States, my fellow Americans, or any foreign savages with whom I shared common interests -- no fucking way. You are not worth it (e.g., scum narcissists like every politician in history; and exploiters like every immoral businessman who has ever profited -- 98% of the world's population).

Would I FIGHT for America and the associated benefits of being a citizen -- yes, absolutely. The rewards, most especially if you are born at the bottom of the socioeconomic spectrum, are worth it (i.e., so long as you don't die or become horribly wounded -- a fraction of the world's (genuine) combat veterans).

REWARDS

1. Power. The gross measure of a man's political, economic, and physical strengths. Given the world we live in, where men are measured by how much power they wield, it is one of the most obvious core factors of humanity and sought out by (most, but not every) man up until his willpower is finally broken and his heart has given up. Power is most easily earned and actively expressed on the battlefield -- personal examples abound, but are beyond the scope of this post. Its reward, however, is the most intoxicating, euphoric state of being that a man can experience. Unfortunately, wars end.

You're not making a lot of sense here wade .... seems to me that the person with the most power in war are the politicians/business who sent people like you to war.

[Nymeria10k]

Nymeria,

What would the demographic make up of a liberated Palestine look like?

For which faction in each of these war torn Nation-States would you be fighting?

Some Pro-Palestinians think the answer is to drive out all Jews and create an all-Arab state. My problem is with political zionism itself, not any one religion. A liberated Palestine would simply allow native palestinians to live where they please within the state without fear of persecution, or restrictions on where they can or can't live - or worse, in an open air prison such as Gaza, with the constant fear of being bombed. In an ordinary democracy, one would assume that they have the right to life, to water, to food, to live where they please, freedom of expression/religion and to pursue an occupation of their choice. Why should Palestinians be denied that right?

Your question also seems to suggest whether the liberation of Palestine would be viable. I say it would - if everyone lived in peace before 1948, I don't see why they can't now. And I disagree with the notion of a two-state solution, that would, if anything, solidify the land Israel is continuously claiming, continuously building settlements etc. While the borders are arguably disputed, it would set them in stone and make liberation all the harder. But before liberation, Palestine needs recognition as a state, which I believe legally it is - but since when did international law apply to USA/Israel anyway....

I apologise if my intention came across as me fighting in a soldier capacity or similar. What I meant was is that I would gladly volunteer to help the people in those nation-states whose lives have been torn apart by war, help the wounded, help rebuild, etc etc. I meant that I would gladly die helping these people (say, if I got shot or something while giving someone food), it would gladden me to know that my last moments of life were dedicated to helping others. However dramatic that may sound.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Nymeria,

I see where you are coming from. I'm simply not sure if your solution is practicable given the facts on the ground. The Israelis should absolutely stop building settlements.