Need some help with a project...

[Pebble thats Stubby]

I too have done the survey.

I too had differculties with the pricing figures since they where all based in $ not £ also the cost of how much one of the village properties should cost totally can't be answered since it depends on location so much and the proptery itself.

BTW your estimate for Livabaord scuba was interesting - It all depends on where your boat is located and how nice the boat and your cabin is. can be anywhere from £700-£6000. On average the red sea will cost me £1k including flights.

and how many tables in the great hall erm realistically it depends on the size of the great hall and how realistic you are being. most great halls are a lot smaller than people assume and a lot people where more squished when feasting than most people would now accept.

If this ended up being local enough I would definatly stay for a weekend. then maybe come back and stay for longer with or without friends depending on the weekend experiance.

I wish you a lot of luck with this project.

[Maester Yobjascz]

and how many tables in the great hall erm realistically it depends on the size of the great hall and how realistic you are being. most great halls are a lot smaller than people assume and a lot people where more squished when feasting than most people would now accept.

Yeah, I was using this question to back into how many guests people are comfortable with. It's hard for most people to estimate a guest count, but a lot easier to imagine a room full of tables.

[Prue]

Actually, there already exists a similar project in France: Guedelon Castle, started in 1997: http://www.guedelon.fr/en/the-guedelon-adventure/an-introduction_01_01.html

That might make it necessary for you to point out what you would do diffferently. E.g. Guedelon doesn't seem to be easily reachable.

edit: oops, didn't see Alarich's post, that he already mentioned this project. Sorry. I have only seen a documentary about it on TV once.

edit2: Judging from your survey, your idea seems to be tending towards a very different approach, though, i.e. something like a holiday resort with a permanent Renaissance Fair?

Hmm. I do visit Renaissance fairs sometimes, but building a castle for it seems a bit excessive. Unless it's a cheap fake like in a theme park, with painted concrete walls.

Maybe a medieval village would be more affordable? Like in a museum village / historical reconstruction site. There's e.g. such a project in Scotland: http://www.duncarron.com/dun/

The problem is that you'd need to attract a fairly constant crowd of visitors to pay for the upkeep of the castle. Most European castles need really wealthy owners and / or hordes of tourists to sort of pay for heating / repairs.

[Maester Yobjascz]

edit2: Judging from your survey, your idea seems to be tending towards a very different approach, though, i.e. something like a holiday resort with a permanent Renaissance Fair?

Hmm. I do visit Renaissance fairs sometimes, but building a castle for it seems a bit excessive. Unless it's a cheap fake like in a theme park, with painted concrete walls.

Maybe a medieval village would be more affordable? Like in a museum village / historical reconstruction site. There's e.g. such a project in Scotland: http://www.duncarron.com/dun/

The problem is that you'd need to attract a fairly constant crowd of visitors to pay for the upkeep of the castle. Most European castles need really wealthy owners and / or hordes of tourists to sort of pay for heating / repairs.

I guess the "dude ranch" concept may not be as familiar outside of the USA... Think of it like a medieval camp for adults (and their families). You stay at the castle, take classes in medieval skills, etc. Not so much a "resort" (which has heavy relaxation connotations), and not really a Renaissance fair (as those are usually one-day events for most people, and the participation is usually limited to buying things and watching others compete... with a few exceptions scattered throughout).

The problem with the European castles is that they were built to medieval standards of energy efficiency, without the benefits of modern HVAC, materials, etc. Stone is very insulating, but that much thermal mass makes it really expensive to heat in the winter. Modern construction materials and tools should keep energy costs and construction costs relatively low (when compared to authentic castles)... and we should be able to achieve a look that is more much more authentic than painting blocks on flat walls.

Hope that helps clarify where I see this... :thumbsup:

[Solmyr]

The problem with the European castles is that they were built to medieval standards of energy efficiency, without the benefits of modern HVAC, materials, etc. Stone is very insulating, but that much thermal mass makes it really expensive to heat in the winter. Modern construction materials and tools should keep energy costs and construction costs relatively low (when compared to authentic castles)... and we should be able to achieve a look that is more much more authentic than painting blocks on flat walls.

So ... it's a fake castle? I'm not sure I'm that thrilled anymore ... can I alter my survey results? :lol:

[Maester Yobjascz]

Nope, you're stuck with the answers you gave. :cool4:

That said, the goal would be to have people unable to distinguish between the castle and real castles... aside from, you know, the presence of air conditioning, state code-required fire suppressing capability, ADA-required accessibility, etc.

[Alarich]

So it's a hotel looking like a castle?

[Maester Yobjascz]

So it's a hotel looking like a castle?

No... that suggests that the medieval aspects are a facade... a veneer over total modernity. It suggests, to me, something like the Excalibur Hotel & Casino in Las Vegas. A hotel also denotes it as a place to stay; a room with a bed.

Instead, consider it the closest to authentic we can make it, while adhering to all the regulations imposed by the state on modern construction for a commercial enterprise. This extends to activities as well... a place to stay is merely part of it. The focus really is on the activities.

[Prue]

Something like a theme park building looking like a castle then, with hotel rooms inside? That's not what I would consider 'building a castle'.

Why a fake building instead of a real castle that was turned into a hotel then? There are plenty of those all over Europe. Maybe I'm too European to grasp the appeal of a fake with no real ties to authentic history. I doubt that the 'medieval dude ranch' concept could work in Europe without being somewhat instructional. Based on experimental archaeology and adapted for children of different age groups for example.

Unless you merely declare it a 'fantasy castle' project for role players / Renaissance Fair fans who only want a setting for cosplaying activities.

[Maester Yobjascz]

Something like a theme park building looking like a castle then, with hotel rooms inside? That's not what I would consider 'building a castle'.

Why a fake building instead of a real castle that was turned into a hotel then? There are plenty of those all over Europe. Maybe I'm too European to grasp the appeal of a fake with no real ties to authentic history. I doubt that the 'medieval dude ranch' concept could work in Europe without being somewhat instructional. Based on experimental archaeology and adapted for children of different age groups for example.

Unless you merely declare it a 'fantasy castle' project for role players / Renaissance Fair fans who only want a setting for cosplaying activities.

That's a little aggressively dismissive, don't you think?

There is an unfortunate lack of real castles here in the USA. The survey suggests that there are plenty of people who are interested in experiencing authentic medieval history here in the USA, but are forced by geography to live in a place without "real" castles or access to an archaeological approach to living history. This concept attempts to be a solution for those people. If you have difficulty resolving the difference between that and Disney, then I'm truly sorry.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

I love the idea. I had it once before as well. I just couldn't imagine the cost of building it. (VERY Expensive)

I also love the idea of the village outside the castle. In my idea, the owners/workers lived above them.

Location is very important because of weather considerations. I would think a place with limited winter would be best (but not suffocating summers either)

I have spent a full week in a "medieval" type setting, in garb the whole time, with no modern items (other than the showers and bathroom) and I love it. Being in a "room" instead of a tent would be awesome

[Alarich]

I guess it's a very American Project... people want to experience a sanitized version of the "middle Ages", where you can have wifi and showers and decent beds in your "castle". So to me it sounds exactly like a Hotel - with a special concept to be shure - but in the end you will compete with other places that offer a comprehensive programme of eating, drinking, sleeping and activities.

It's basically entertainment, and I think that's perfectly legitimate. The "authenticity" however eludes me - there is no authentic medieval history in America like there was for example in France or Italy. A castle - especially built to modern Standards - has no cultural or historical background there, so in a way, it's always going to be a "facade". Getting the degree of authenticity right will be a great balancing act.

My guess is, that the Project - if well executed - could work really well, because as was duly stated, there is a lack of medieval castles in America. So there's probably not a lack of demand. What would be interesting is how much this costs, because the initial investment is where I see the biggest hurdle: my guess is that the closer to "authentic" standards in terms of materials and ground plot/floor plan you get, the more expensive it will be. Location and building permit will be the next problem because you will probably need a good mix of scenic backdrop and proximity to a population centre. Between the necessary degree of authenticity, economic pragmatism and modern building requirements, this will be difficult to navigate.

Have you thought about an authentic American Version? I.e. does it have to be a castle? For example you could "rebuild" a Viking settlement somewhere on the east coast, or next to a great lake. It would fit into the historical background and it's probably cheaper than building a castle

[Prue]

That's a little aggressively dismissive, don't you think?

There is an unfortunate lack of real castles here in the USA. The survey suggests that there are plenty of people who are interested in experiencing authentic medieval history here in the USA, but are forced by geography to live in a place without "real" castles or access to an archaeological approach to living history. This concept attempts to be a solution for those people. If you have difficulty resolving the difference between that and Disney, then I'm truly sorry.

Well, there are obviously cultural differences between the interpretations of 'authentic' then. Maybe I should have tried to be more understanding, sorry.

But it still seems more like Disney than an archaeological approach to me. Not authentic.

Hmmm.... similar to 'wild west' theme parks in Europe perhaps. Would you honestly label them 'authentic'?

[Alex.]

Done. It's a shame Americans do this shit far better than we do here in England. I'd kill for a medieval style / fantasty style place in the UK which was affordable. We only spent £1000ish on 4 days in Disney including international travel, so I'd expect to get there, stay and eat for that sort of money as a guide. Probably unfeasable in the UK, maybe the French countryside would be cool if it had easy links to Paris?

But we... have actual, real life castles?

[Maester Yobjascz]

Well, there are obviously cultural differences between the interpretations of 'authentic' then. Maybe I should have tried to be more understanding, sorry.

But it still seems more like Disney than an archaeological approach to me. Not authentic.

Hmmm.... similar to 'wild west' theme parks in Europe perhaps. Would you honestly label them 'authentic'?

The question of how to define "authenticity" is pretty interesting...

au·then·tic

ôˈTHentik/

adjective

adjective: authentic; adjective: auth.

1. 1.

   of undisputed origin; genuine.

   "the letter is now accepted as an authentic document"

   synonyms:

   genuine, real, bona fide, true, veritable; More

   antonyms:

   fake

   • made or done in the traditional or original way, or in a way that faithfully resembles an original.

     "the restaurant serves authentic Italian meals"

   • based on facts; accurate or reliable.

     "an authentic depiction of the situation"

     synonyms:

     reliable, dependable, trustworthy, authoritative, honest, faithful;More

     antonyms:

     unreliable

The disagreement we seem to be having is where the cutoff for authenticity lies on the spectrum between historical artifact (the real thing) and the Disney castle (highly idealized and unrealistic representation).

You seem to place the line at historical artifact: if it's not the real thing, it's not authentic. Which would suggest you can't get authentic ethnic food anywhere but in the land of origin, or that no one but an ethnic person could cook that food authentically. It also suggests that there is no possible way for Americans to visit an authentic castle without travelling to Europe. I think that's rather limiting.

I believe that, if it is faithful and reproduces the essential features of the original, it can be considered authentic. I don't believe that a recreation must be archaeological to be authentic. There is quite a lot of space on the spectrum between that and Disney...

As to the wild west theme parks in Europe... having never been to one, I couldn't say. However, if they capture the essential features of the wild west, it's possible. Of course, defining those essential features is always going to be a matter of debate.

Which brings us to:

I guess it's a very American Project... people want to experience a sanitized version of the "middle Ages", where you can have wifi and showers and decent beds in your "castle". So to me it sounds exactly like a Hotel - with a special concept to be shure - but in the end you will compete with other places that offer a comprehensive programme of eating, drinking, sleeping and activities.

It's basically entertainment, and I think that's perfectly legitimate. The "authenticity" however eludes me - there is no authentic medieval history in America like there was for example in France or Italy. A castle - especially built to modern Standards - has no cultural or historical background there, so in a way, it's always going to be a "facade". Getting the degree of authenticity right will be a great balancing act.

My guess is, that the Project - if well executed - could work really well, because as was duly stated, there is a lack of medieval castles in America. So there's probably not a lack of demand. What would be interesting is how much this costs, because the initial investment is where I see the biggest hurdle: my guess is that the closer to "authentic" standards in terms of materials and ground plot/floor plan you get, the more expensive it will be. Location and building permit will be the next problem because you will probably need a good mix of scenic backdrop and proximity to a population centre. Between the necessary degree of authenticity, economic pragmatism and modern building requirements, this will be difficult to navigate.

Have you thought about an authentic American Version? I.e. does it have to be a castle? For example you could "rebuild" a Viking settlement somewhere on the east coast, or next to a great lake. It would fit into the historical background and it's probably cheaper than building a castle

While I understand where you're coming from, I still take issue with the term "facade," though more for its connotations than its denotation.

Setting aside, for the time being, all the statutory regulations, and simply built a castle with modern equipment and techniques that could not be distinguished (without special equipment) from a castle built in the traditional manner, would that castle be authentic? I would suggest it would be... unless you take a Marxist view of fetishization (something I'm sure Solo could explain better than I), there is no difference between the two.

Starting from that point, as you make concessions for statutory safety regulations, people with disabilities, etc., you begin inching away from what you might term "true authenticity." My survey is intended, in part, to find where to draw that line; what concessions are necessary to make the investment viable, without going to far. I would imagine that many of the attempts at are considered "inauthentic" (these wild west parks, for example), come at that line from the other direction.

Cost will obviously be an issue, and I believe you rightly identified some of the main concerns. However, I think there is a way to chart that course.

As for vikings... probably cheaper, yes... but a lot less interest too. For better or worse, I think Eco nailed it when he wrote about neomedievalism and its roots. There's a romance to the middle ages, but it's associated more with the high middle ages, and not so much with the earlier period.

Moreover, viking settlement was limited to Newfoundland in Canada, and the extent and duration of the settlement is debated. Besides, if you're willing to locate the recreation from its original location, why not build a castle instead? is moving a viking settlement from Canada to the USA any different than moving a castle from Europe to the USA? How does the fact that the vikings had established a very short-lived settlement in North America account for that big a shift in authenticity?

[Maester Yobjascz]

But we... have actual, real life castles?

:lol:

Goes to show you that not all Europeans share the same view of authenticity...

There's a big difference between wandering a castle and examining museum-like exhibits (something I love to do, by the way... been to Warwick, Trim, Carcassonne, Castlenaud, Beynac, and others), and going to a castle and actively participating. It's that latter aspect that I'm trying to incorporate.

I'd love to do something completely period (I loved that Beynac is still lit by oil lamps), but it's simply not safe or accessible for most people. Some concessions have to be made. People these days routinely stay relatively active into their 50s and 60s. Castles were designed for people whose live expectancy was considerably shorter.