93 replies to this topic

[Jaak]

dragon wolf, on Jul 30 2009, 00.12, said:

Great observation!  I would like to know more about the ethnicity of the 1,600 troops that the Targaryens brought over from Dragonstone.  Were these troops primarily Valyrian?  What happened to these people?  Baratheon sounds like it could be Valyrian to me.  Were there other Valyrian houses/families/commoners that were upjumped in Westeros?

Well, Stannis sailed with thrice the number of soldiers. But apart from Velaryons, few of them sound Valyrian. They are sometimes called "codfish lords". Seeing how the Valyrians only founded Dragonstone 200 years before Conquest, it makes perfect sense that they found  the isles settled on their arrival.

[King Bronn l]

I really just want more info on Valyrias war with The Old Ghiscari(sp) empire.


And some more stuff on the Iron Bank.......you know just some of the socio-economical history of Westeros. No biggie.

Edited by mob16151, 08 December 2009 - 01:22 AM.

[Lord Mord]

hairy bear,

The hairy bear, on 30 July 2009 - 11:51 AM, said:

I guess you could still be right in the sense that Baratheon could be a native Westerosii family name. Orys mother (the suspected lover of Aegon's father) could have not been Valyrian. After all, if she had been the house would be named Baeraetheon.

Also, I think the name almost has to be etymologically linked with the (Ironborn?) name of Theon.  So, I think it pretty much has to be First Men in origin.  Perhaps there had been a noble house of the name, on whom Aegon's father got Orys out of wedlock?

Since I'm in a speculating mood already, I'll just add that perhaps she was the daughter of a Westerosi knight who had sworn himself to Dragonstone, or one of its vassals.

[Lord Varys]

Are we sure that Aegon's father fathered Orys Baratheon? Couldn't he have been the son of Aegon's mother, and some valyrian guy with the surname 'Baratheon'?

Sureley, the valyrians never had this strange custom of biving noble bastards a surname refering to the geographical characteristics of the region their were born to.

[The hairy bear]

Lord Varys, on 04 March 2010 - 05:03 AM, said:

Are we sure that Aegon's father fathered Orys Baratheon? Couldn't he have been the son of Aegon's mother, and some valyrian guy with the surname 'Baratheon'?

We only know that Orys was Aegon's bastard brother, so it could be that as you say he was his mother's bastard. That said, afaik is uncommon for a married woman to acknowledge bastard sons, since usually they would pass for her husband's son.

I agree with Lord Caspen in this issue: the name Baratheon seems quite Westerosii to me, specially for the "Theon" connection. Perhaps from the first men, since the two Theons we know are one Greyjoy and one Stark.

Edited by The hairy bear, 08 March 2010 - 08:45 AM.

[alguien]

Thought this might be the proper thread to post this speculation.  After reading TMK, I decided to view Amoka's gallery of Targaryen's just to get another view of how the Great Bastards may have looked.

I then looked at the Targs down the line and noticed that GRRM specifically directed the artist to have Jahaerys II's left arm covered by his cape.

I wondered why that was.  Could he have been a survivor of what happened at Summerhall? Perhaps his hand was badly burned or disfigured.   He also mentioned that he was sickly... possibly a side affect from whatever happened there?  

Anyway, just a little speculation.

[GreenHand]

Fenryng is right. The Descendants of Aerion brightflame are of great significance to the story of the Golden company and Targaryen links to throne. Not only could such descendants stake a direct claim or support a claim, but more importantly provide suitable marriage options for royal Targaryens who have a traditional tendency to keep the blood pure by marrying another Targaryen. Aerion's descendants are just as important as those of Daeron Blackfyre and Bittersteel.

But let's not forget the two other male lineages left unaccounted for INSIDE Westeros:
  Aemond Targaryen (Rider of Vagar), son of Viserys I, brother to Aegon II [We cannot assume he died in the Dance of the Dragons]
  Rhaegel Targaryen, son of Daeron II, and brother to kings Aerys I & Maekar I [Though he was mad, dancing naked, we KNOW he had twins*]

*Rhaegel's twins, According to AWOIAF: "It states in the text that three of Daeron's sons had sons of their own. Aerys had no children. The Hedge Knight"

What has become of these lineages. Such cadet branches of House Targaryen could play a central role. There is the outside chance that if they exist in hiding, perhaps they would emerge in the face of a 2nd Targaryen invasion.

[GreenHand]

Several crowns seem to have been used by the Targaryen Kings. It is mentioned how one king wore the crown of a specific predecessor (as opposed to the crown(s) of other predecessors?). Perhaps a more structured description of these crowns as a collection. And what become of all of these crowns? Which of these crowns was taken and worn by the new Baratheon dynasty?

[GreenHand]

Oh yes, and add to that list of unaccounted for Targaryens: The 3rd unknown son of Aegon V The Unlikely. That's a lineage much closer to the modern time. It would be an assumption that he died at Summerhall along with his older brother Duncan.

[boojam]

Werthead, on 04 September 2006 - 04:41 PM, said:

A long-term history of the Targaryens through all of this could be good. Were the Targs relative latecomers to power in the Freehold? Were they an old and storied house of the empire? If so, why did they go to Dragonstone? And so forth.

Since the Valyrians play such a large role in the prehistory of SoIaF it would be  good to have a chronology.
On the other hand I don't want to see George (nor do I expect him too) to do it. Finish the story!
Valyrian and Targaryen history is mostly a big mystery, seems a writer George trusts could do this and make a buck.

[GreenHand]

What about the Second Sons sellsword Ben Plumm and that Gaoler who both claim to have the blood of the Dragon in them. Any credence? Anything to potentially connect them with any of the "lost" Targaryens?

[Arataniello]

GreenHand, on 17 February 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

What about the Second Sons sellsword Ben Plumm and that Gaoler who both claim to have the blood of the Dragon in them. Any credence? Anything to potentially connect them with any of the "lost" Targaryens?

There are some offspring of Eleana Targaryen (one of the princesses in the Maidenvault) who could be ancestors for both of those characters.  Especially the gaoler, whose surname is Longwaters.  Elaena had two bastard children with a Velaryon who were called Jon and Jeyne Waters.

[Arataniello]

GreenHand, on 04 November 2011 - 04:55 AM, said:

But let's not forget the two other male lineages left unaccounted for INSIDE Westeros:
  Aemond Targaryen (Rider of Vagar), son of Viserys I, brother to Aegon II [We cannot assume he died in the Dance of the Dragons]

I could swear that I read somewhere that all of Aegon II's siblings died during tDotD, but cannot find anything online to confirm this.