JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Sports are dangerous. Also is joining the army. Yet, many young people do it, despite the dangers. And their families agree. Also, there i no indication Benjen sees the wall as a cruel fate. He joined himself because he wanted to. many people in the north join the watch for honour, nor as a punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Ned had all the power to choose.. be a ranger would erase all others life possibilites to him.. it was dangerous.. and he only wanted to go there because he had a wrong fantasy about it and as a lot of teenager not mature enough to make his own decisions feel out of place... You are a great poster and i read you all the time.. but i'm trying to put my head hard into it and there is nothing right about what happen.. (Story wise is very important of course.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (Pure speculation not to be taken serious) I think Benjen didn't go there for honor... I think he want to put his pass behind and feel guilty about something (Robert's Rebelion sure took a emotional toll out of the Starks). My theory is he helped Lyanna to be the knight of the smilling tree.. and everything that unfold after that.. he somehow feels guilty about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 (Pure speculation not to be taken serious) I think Benjen didn't go there for honor... I think he want to put his pass behind and feel guilty about something (Robert's Rebelion sure took a emotional toll out of the Starks). My theory is he helped Lyanna to be the knight of the smilling tree.. and everything that unfold after that.. he somehow feels guilty about it. Benjen wanted to go to the Wall since he heard the plea of that one crow in Harrenhall. Whatever motivations he could have had later, he always wanted to go. In the North, the Wall is not dishonouring. Is the other way around, it's a way to have honour, specially if you're a young son with little chances, hence, a perfect place for a bastard. So, I think we better stop this "going to the Wall is terrible!" because it's not that case for the Starks or for mostly of the Northerns. Even some Southerns see that going to the Wall is a perfect way to end their days and still be useful to the society. Jon was always going to be in danger in his life, being the son of Lord Stark. If he had chosen to stay in Winterfell, he would have gone to war with Robb, and probably died either in battle or during the Red Wedding. And if he had gone with Ned to KL, he could have been killed the day they killed Ned's household (after all, he's a bastard and has little use for them). And there is nothing Ned could have done. Jon is a bastard to everybody's eyes: it had been hard for him to secure him a good marriage or a good position. In the Watch he could have find a way to rise, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 He would be free to go to war with Robb.. he would be free to marry and fall in love... he would be free to have a life, he would be free to join the wall. All that would go way better if Ned didn't get so afraid of stand up for Catelyn and let the boy grow to be a man and not just a teenager making here and now decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Not everyone is as politically adept as others. Ned prefers the quiet simple life, but his men respect him and honor him and he's never had problems like open rebellion in the North because his men consider him a good lord. He doesn't like mysteries and playing the Game of Thrones. So what?Tywin did not support Robert in his Rebellion because Tywin wanted to be on the winning side and it wasn't until the Trident that it became clear which side was going to win. Are you really bashing Ned Stark for not acting like Tywin Lannister? Thank GOD. Tywin's trick at KL may have let the army into the city but it also led to (paraphrasing Jorah Mormont): babes being butchered, countless women being raped. Rhaegar was dead, the war was basically over except for KL. Tywin wanted to get there first so he could claim that he was a friend to Robert Baratheon, nothing more. And how about Elia and her children? You think that was honorable or good? You think that trick was a good thing? You think Ned should have ordered the same thing?It wouldn't matter if Ned knew why Jaime killed Aerys. Jaime swore an oath to keep Aerys from harm and then he broke that oath by killing his king. Ned believes in keeping oaths; that's pretty honorable. And, oh yeah, it's not like Jaime ever offered up any sort of explanation...EVER. He never bothered to try and tell anyone "the king put Wildfire all over the city and then wanted to set it off." No Ned killed Lady because the King and Queen ordered it. If Ned hadn't done it, then Ilyn Payne would have. Ned took it upon himself for the same reason he killed the NW's man in Bran I. Robert wasn't going to swing the sword himself, despite having passed judgement, so Ned did it to save his daughter's pet wolf from being butchered. He had no power to protect Lady once the King ordered her killed. The best he could do was give Lady an honorable death. Varys served the Mad King, he was only allowed to remain because Robert pardoned him and brought him into the small council (which was a rather dumb idea, if you ask me). Varys was whispering in the King Aerys' ear the whole time, pointing out traitors. And you act like no one else hates Lord Varys. Most people hate him or don't trust him. Hell, even Tyrion is suspicious of Varys and those two got along rather well because Tyrion knows how to play the game; he likes playing the game. Tyrion enjoys toying with people and making them dance like puppets. Ned doesn't...because he's a good man. He lost his head because Joffery decided to conspire on his own. The plan was to let Ned go join the NW. He lost his head because Joffery is a cruel and sadistic boy. Ned also expected that after he confronted Cersei, she would flee and take the children with her. He didn't realize that her love of power and position was greater than her children. Ned also trusted Littlefinger, someone who has managed to deceive everyone, including Cat. Ned also never closed his eyes to evidence...he's figured out that Cersei's children were bastards. And by the time he realizes the truth, the King is already out hunting. Ned was going to inform Robert as soon as the King returned but Cersei had already put her plan in place. And you seem to be forgetting that Robert is the one who ordered his KG to stand back so that he could deal with the boar himself. That's not something Cersei planned for and not something Ned could have prevented. What exactly was he supposed to do? Ride pell mell out to the woods: "stop Your Grace! The wine was a ploy to kill you and this boar is going to rip you up!! It's all a giant plan! Oh btw, your kids...not yours!" You do not go before the King and tell him that his children are actually incestuous bastards without strong evidence. And as to his children and not protecting them: what??? He was going back to Winterfell. He had his girls packed and ready.I love Ned bashing :DNeds a fool. He reminds me of Jaime disobeying one oath for another. He betrays his king and sister to appease his friend and seek revenge. Once this is completed he betrays the new king to help his sister and nephew. He claims the targaryen children are innocent yet does not give his fealty to Viserys. Ned certainly splashed in a lot of blood. He rode with karstarks and Boltons. He criticizes Edmure for being benevolent to his small folk and offers justice to them, never profit. He murdered Lady. He took his first daughter's trusting pet in his hands, a gift from their ancestors, and slit it's throat. Wars have been fought over less. Can you imagine Sansa with Lady at her side? Cersei could, Joffrey too and the girl beating kingsguard. Lady did nothing wrong. Catelyn warned Ned that Robert changed. She warned him again when bran fell. Ned should have turned back north.He mistrusted Varys because of his Targaryen background, so why trust Selmy who defends dany and seeks her service, or Pycelle who sleeps by Cersei's feet at night?Ned lost his head because it was there for the taking. He spent his guards on transportation for Lady, guards in the tourney, helping Beric; all important, but so is guarding. With a miniscule amount of men he rejectes renlys knights and uses Petyrs love of stannis to bribe janos, insted if asking Janos to do his job. Ned should have sent men to Robert in the woods, the Realm is at war and he's hunting? The hand should stop that, or at least tell some Kingsguard.And yes the daughter's were ready to go. Ready to go! Why were they there? If there is no ship (wwhich there was) then you go north on the kings road. Take hullin or jorys replacement. Somebody! He left his daughter's in kl. The beatings sansa got and the torture Arya endured is because of ned.he was a terrible father, a disappointing friend, a lying husband, and a decent uncle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Ned had some hard decisions to made.. So it's normal to slip here and there i guess (That is why they are called hard decisions).. Specially with a lot of knives in the shadows going at him. I don't think he is that much of a good man as he thinks.. What bothers me is he dishes out so much judgment... and the readers go nuts when we decide to judge this example of a man. So i enjoy judging Ned Stark... Giving him a little bit of what his mind unleashs at the "BAD GUyS" all the time. Overall he is a pretty decent man and a good Lord Paramount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 I love Ned bashing :D With practice you might be good at it one day. He would be free to go to war with Robb.. he would be free to marry and fall in love... he would be free to have a life, he would be free to join the wall. All that would go way better if Ned didn't get so afraid of stand up for Catelyn and let the boy grow to be a man and not just a teenager making here and now decisions. LordStoneheart, nice to meet you. I stand up for Catelyn and I have no idea why you're bringing her into this equation. She did not tell him to send Jon to the Wall (she does the opposite, realizing that's not her place.) She simply said she will not take care of Jon as long as Ned left her as Lady of Winterfell, and that's understandable. Just like she said, he is Ned's son. Ned could have sent him to any of his northern lords for fostering. Ned could have taken him to KL. Ned could have had granted Jon his own goddamn castle ffs. But Ned decided to let Jon's decision of going to the Wall happen. It had nothing to do with not standing up to Catelyn (he did, btw. When it came to Jon, he didn't just 'stand up' to her; he scared her into silence.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 With practice you might be good at it one day. LordStoneheart, nice to meet you. I stand up for Catelyn and I have no idea why you're bringing her into this equation. She did not tell him to send Jon to the Wall (she does the opposite, realizing that's not her place.) She simply said she will not take care of Jon as long as Ned left her as Lady of Winterfell, and that's understandable. Just like she said, he is Ned's son. Ned could have sent him to any of his northern lords for fostering. Ned could have taken him to KL. Ned could have had granted Jon his own goddamn castle ffs. But Ned decided to let Jon's decision of going to the Wall happen. It had nothing to do with not standing up to Catelyn (he did, btw. When it came to Jon, he didn't just 'stand up' to her; he scared her into silence.)Hello. He could said at any time, Jon is gonna stay here and you will threat him with dignity, i won't hear any shit and don't be a babe about it... (For Example)Just brought Catelyn up because she is the one who says that she doesn't want him in Winterfell.. Jon never picked any fight with her, neither cause problems in general.. So the point is to Ned state te obvious and tell her (since aparentilly he can) to suck this up and deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hello. He could said at any time, Jon is gonna stay here and you will threat him with dignity, i won't hear any shit and don't be a babe about it... (For Example)Just brought Catelyn up because she is the one who says that she doesn't want him in Winterfell.. Jon never picked any fight with her, neither cause problems in general.. So the point is to Ned state te obvious and tell her (since aparentilly he can) to suck this up and deal with it. He's not as sexist as you want him to be. He actually respects Catelyn as a woman, wife, and Lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 He's not as sexist as you want him to be. He actually respects Catelyn as a woman, wife, and Lady. You don't need to give "respect" if the person is being selfish and creating a whole problem about nothing.. she put up with Jon her entire life in the North... She clearly understand that what she is doing is bad and for personal purposes only (As she feels bad about it ocasionally)... She is being a babe about it and that is all, no one have to put up with that... I understand why she did it, but that don't change the fact someone should have stepped up to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandsnake74 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 In re-reading the first book I am struck by what an idiot Ned is. Sansa needed her father and he had little time for her. His love of Robert blinded him to being smart enough to protect his family. I found it tragic he did not listen to Varys because his "honor" meant more to him than the lives of his children. He lost himself on the battlefield where too many good men died. He should have stayed in the North but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diregirl Posted June 28, 2015 Share Posted June 28, 2015 I don't think the Ned bashing is entirely justified - I think Martin designed the character to show what happens if a very honest, upright, unscheming person ends up in a position of power in a viper's nest like King's Landing. He is so out of his depth - imagine Ned (being a "let your yes be yes and your no be no"-kind of person) being asked to deal with master schemers like Varys or Littlefinger, not to speak of Cersei, who would wade through rivers of blood to save her kids. What brings about his downfall is his inability to realize that most people don't fit the "Honest Northerner" stereotype but would rather have life than honour.As to Ned not being a good father - he seems to be very much interested in his kids, but he has people (Septa Mordane) who are supposed to take care of the girls and is in the middle of the national crisis - as the hand of the king, he'd have to think of the realm first, his kids later. He does what he can to see them off safely, but with Sansa (and the sibling bickering) he's totally out of his depth again. I suppose Cat would have dealt with teenage tantrums and he wouldn't have had a lot of experience with those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted June 29, 2015 Share Posted June 29, 2015 How can this thread stay unlocked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AerionBrightflameII Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Well, this seems completely unbiased and rational. I'm sure the responses will be the same. Hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Doe Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 True! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 How can this thread stay unlocked? why would this thread get locked? when people have different opinions from you the thread should get locked is that it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 why would this thread get locked? when people have different opinions from you the thread should get locked is that it? Because hate threads are not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
INCBlackbird Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Because hate threads are not allowed. this is not a hate thread, this person is criticizing Ned, just like every other character get criticized. Especially in reread threads this is quite important I think, we're investigating the character. in my reread thread about Theon I also say negative things about him. Maybe the person should have also added some positive things but everyone knows the positive things about Ned, it gets shoved in our faces by every single fan. and as you can see, the moment someone says something negative about Ned everyone starts calling them a troll or making fun of them instead of actually responding to the thread. I think in total there's like 3 people here who have actually responded to the critique this person gave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 I think in total there's like 3 people here who have actually responded to the critique this person gave. which proves that this thread was considered as a hate thread by the majority of Forum members in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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