Sweet Robert's father

[mediterraneo]

Well, as everybody knows Robert Arryn is son of Jon Arryn and Lysa Tully.

But Jon Arryn has had three wives, and could only generate a child in his very late years with the one wife we are sure was having an extramarital relationship.

What I mean is that it is relatively probable that the child is not his.

Why is that relevant? Would Petyr Baelish kill his own son, if he knew him as such? It would affect the way the things in the Vale unfold, in Winds of WInter.

Is there any insight on this in the books?
Any source to follow, any thread that has already touched the point?
(My use of the search function was short, but I couldn't find any)

Cheers!

EDIT: Elba the Intoner, thanks for correcting me in post number 6, with direct link to the thread talking of the same theme.

[Lady Winter Rose]

Jon Arryn could get previous wives pregnant (at least wife no.2), but no child survived. I'm firm believer Lysa was one with problems, tansy tea might cause damage to her uterus...

I also believe Robin was child of LF, but that's just (bad) luck.

[mediterraneo]

Well, that's the central point: Baelish could be Sweet Robert's father.

I wanted to discuss the consequences of that on Sansa's situation too. People seem so sure that Baelish will want to kill Sweet Rob, but if this was the case (I'm just wondering the possibility) what would happen?

PS: I knew I had to put "Sweet Rob's father and Sansa's destiny" in the title, to get attention... :)

[Lady Winter Rose]

I do believe Sans will do the deed, but she would be forced.

[mediterraneo]

They are everybody SO waiting for Sweet Rob to die that I feel he can somehow come out unscathed of this, and even pass to history as a fair, wise ruler somehow.

Unlikely things somehow come to happen in this series, and while I don't believe he can do anything else that have the luck of survive without noticing how lucky he was, I sort of hope that the boy is not hurt by anybody.
Even if Baelish knew he was surely his son, and that would have broken his heart.

But if Baelish endgame was NOT sowing caos to reap what he can, but furthering his son's future...

He would be doing exactly the same as Illyrio with "Aegon", given some very well written theory on that.

Has anybody else any other theory on Baelish's endgame? Or are we struck at "he saws chaos to use it as a ladder with no other objective"?

[Elba the Intoner]

You might want to check out this thread:

Also, a lot of hints about this come from Lysa's comments to Petyr when she arrives to marry him. I don't have the books in front of me so I am going off memory, but she mentions something about all those years of secrecy and that now she means to scream when they consummate their marriage, which suggests they were having long standing sexual relations in secret in King's Landing. There's also her comment about how they should make "another" sibling for Sweet Robin. This could just be referring to her first pregnancy when she got pregnant with Petyr's child that she was forced to abort, but it's ambiguous so it could have been referring to one of her other later miscarriages or still births after she was married to Jon. Another hint is that Sweet Robin is small in stature, like LF, and I don't think Jon Arryn was a small statured man.

[Le Cygne]

You might want to check out this thread:

Good points...

Also, just came across this, too:

"Be it known that Lord Baelish is granted the castle of Harrenhal with all its attendant lands and incomes, there to make his seat and rule henceforth as Lord Paramount of the Trident. Petyr Baelish and his sons and grandsons shall hold and enjoy these honors until the end of time, and all the lords of the Trident shall do him homage as their rightful liege. The King’s Hand and the small council consent."

On his knees, Littlefinger raised his eyes to King Joffrey. "I thank you humbly, Your Grace. I suppose this means I'll need to see about getting some sons and grandsons."

[Luddsthirdmorph]

Well if Sansa kills sweet Robin then she will be a kinslayer. First cousins are clearly "kin." It would not be a good thing for her long term

[mediterraneo]

Thanks to Elba the Intoner, for finding that thread.
It was quite recent too!

[Colonel Green]

I don't have the books in front of me so I am going off memory, but she mentions something about all those years of secrecy and that now she means to scream when they consummate their marriage, which suggests they were having long standing sexual relations in secret in King's Landing.

No, Lysa's comments at their wedding imply the reverse, seeing as she is scandalized (in an amused way) when he suggests they sleep together again without getting married first.

Anyway, I would be extremely dubious about the idea of them having had an affair in King's Landing. Littlefinger wouldn't expose himself to unnecessary risk by carrying on an affair with the Hand's wife in the capital, where there are spies everywhere. Stringing Lysa along (which I would argue is far more consistent with how she behaves) works better.

[rozemarijn]

No, Lysa's comments at their wedding imply the reverse, seeing as she is scandalized (in an amused way) when he suggests they sleep together again without getting married first.

better.

And there is the remark about Jon Arryns deathbed where he says 'the seed is strong' and Lysa tought he was talking about Robin and was very pleased with it.

[Elba the Intoner]

Thanks to Elba the Intoner, for finding that thread.

It was quite recent too!

You're welcome. :)

No, Lysa's comments at their wedding imply the reverse, seeing as she is scandalized (in an amused way) when he suggests they sleep together again without getting married first.

Anyway, I would be extremely dubious about the idea of them having had an affair in King's Landing. Littlefinger wouldn't expose himself to unnecessary risk by carrying on an affair with the Hand's wife in the capital, where there are spies everywhere. Stringing Lysa along (which I would argue is far more consistent with how she behaves) works better.

Well, I wasn't the first one to use that statement as evidence of Lysa and LF having an affair in King's Landing. I had seen that suggested quite a bit when I first came on the boards but I thought it made sense, and many others do too. Of course this is all ambiguous and it could be read either way. I doubt we'll ever get an answer, but certainly there are hints that it could be true. I'd say your other comment about how risky it would be for LF to do this is the strongest one against them having an affair. It would be risky for sure. On the other hand, we also know that one of LF's main modes of operating is to know what a man wants because you can use that against him. It's been pretty obvious that Lysa wanted LF so by sleeping with her that was how he controlled her and got her to do what he wanted. Also, it's not unprecedented that LF could find somewhere where they would not be discovered. After all, he had Dontos meet Sansa in the Godswood where he knew that no one would be watching them. Maybe LF and Lysa met in the Godswood too.

And there is the remark about Jon Arryns deathbed where he says 'the seed is strong' and Lysa tought he was talking about Robin and was very pleased with it.

I don't htink this means much. That could be explained by a couple of other ideas. For one, maybe Lysa really does not know that Sweetrboin is LF's and truly believes he is Jon's. She would have been sleeping with Jon at the same time as an affair with LF when she was in King's Landing. There's also another hint early on in AGOT. When Ned is meeting with the small council about killing Dany, LF says something along the lines of "when you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, best to get on with it" (paraphrasing). Again, it's ambiguous but it could go either way.

[rozemarijn]

You're welcome. :)

Well, I wasn't the first one to use that statement as evidence of Lysa and LF having an affair in King's Landing. I had seen that suggested quite a bit when I first came on the boards but I thought it made sense, and many others do too. Of course this is all ambiguous and it could be read either way. I doubt we'll ever get an answer, but certainly there are hints that it could be true. I'd say your other comment about how risky it would be for LF to do this is the strongest one against them having an affair. It would be risky for sure. On the other hand, we also know that one of LF's main modes of operating is to know what a man wants because you can use that against him. It's been pretty obvious that Lysa wanted LF so by sleeping with her that was how he controlled her and got her to do what he wanted. Also, it's not unprecedented that LF could find somewhere where they would not be discovered. After all, he had Dontos meet Sansa in the Godswood where he knew that no one would be watching them. Maybe LF and Lysa met in the Godswood too.

I don't htink this means much. That could be explained by a couple of other ideas. For one, maybe Lysa really does not know that Sweetrboin is LF's and truly believes he is Jon's. She would have been sleeping with Jon at the same time as an affair with LF when she was in King's Landing. There's also another hint early on in AGOT. When Ned is meeting with the small council about killing Dany, LF says something along the lines of "when you find yourself in bed with an ugly woman, best to get on with it" (paraphrasing). Again, it's ambiguous but it could go either way.

Lysa? No, she did not love Jon. If there would be any chance the child would be Littlefingers, she would cling to it and she would have confessed it when she confessed the murder of Jon Arryn.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The fact Sweetrobin is small and weakly has nothing to do with his genetics. For instance, I'm 1.50 while my parents are both around 1.80 (and not, I'm not adopted or anything). And if the kid is a wimp is due to bad nurture. For instance, Joffrey is nothing like Jaime and Tommen is not a cruel type like Cersei.

Of course, there is a chance Lysa did what Cersei also did to Robert B: she had an affair with LF and she get tide of Jon's babies and only managed to get the one sired by LF to term. But considering she was in full "honest mode" the day she died, I suppose she could have mentioned. And she didn't. For her, lose the baby she conceived with Petyr was a traumatic experience, after all.

[Elba the Intoner]

Yeah I don't think little Robert's sickly nature hints at LF being his father. There is nothing to suggest that LF was sickly as a child. He seemed very hearty except for after his dual with Brandon and that was because of his injuries. On the other hand, the small stature is something they both have in common. Granted, that's not much all by itself, but taken with some of the other things it does make you wonder.

Yeah, maybe Lysa would have confessed it that last day if she truly knew that little Robert was LF's child. On the other hand, assuming that she did know, she would also want to do anything to protect Robert and keep him in a position where he would be the unquestioned heir to the Lord of the Vale, a very powerful position. She was very over protective of him and I could see her keeping that secret even to her death just to make sure no one would try to remove him as heir. I doubt we'll ever get an answer to this but there is enough in the text to make it plausible.

[Lady Winter Rose]

It's completely possible Lysa believed Robin is Jon's son, in "reality" Robin is LF's son. Maybe she wanted to believe her son is true heir, and started to believe that, maybe she slept with Jon and LF on the same day, but can't realize who's the father.... etc.