Trial by Folly: The Arianne Martell Reread Project [TWOW Arianne I spoilers]

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Holy crap, I never thought about Viserys getting an army as being part of the reason Doran might have wanted to go scheme away from Sunspear. That's just amazing (here I was thinking it was all about the gout). Also, does this mean Arianne and Doran were around each other at Sunspear for 7 years after she read the letter? I was praising her for not acting impulsively for 9 years, but to actually be around her dad, who had caused her so much hurt (unbeknownst to him) for that significant amount of time without raging at him? Or without confiding in Tyene about what was upsetting her? She is no drunkard rolling dice, that's for sure.

Seriously. Just surface-level and dull.

Yeah, they seem to have been living at Sunspear together during those years indeed.

And indeed a very interesting observation, that Doran moved to a more quiet place around the same time that Viserys had "arranged" an army.

[Dornish Vinegar]

You guys flatter me! :wub:

Yeah, DV, I can see how little you have to add... :rolleyes:

I sometimes wonder how much of Doran's fear is an act. I mean, he might not be afraid of defying the Lannisters, but he is afraid of, like, becoming emotionally attached to his own children, and confronting his own failure. I mean, that's Quentyn-gate in a nutshell, isn't it?

Good catch also, on the gendered nature of Arys's reaction to the separate Martell's trembling.

Poor Arys. That conversation must have been so terrifying for him. Guys like him always expect to be castrated or something when they meet their girlfriend's father. (You know, because they think they owe their fathers something, but that's a separate rant.) And Doran's sick old man act (I'm not sure how a sick old man can put on a sick old man act, but he manages it) must be disturbing to him for another reason. I wouldn't be surprised if the Princes of Dorne were some kind of boogy man to people in the Stormlands and the Reach, like The Doctor to the Daleks, or something. All of the historical Martells we've heard of were badasses, and now here's this guy who afraid of his own subjects. I bet it was quite disappointing.

I think that the line between haven and prison is a rather hazy one for Doran. He's definitely hiding there, surrounded by ultra symbolic over-ripe fruit. He doesn't want to be seen, literally or metaphorically. He gets through the awkward conversations with his nieces as fast as he possibly can, brushing them off with what essentially amounts to "yeah, I'll think about it, now go away." He covers his legs with a blanket to hide them from the children. He hides behind the curtains of the litter through the streets of Sunspear. He brushes off his daughter and his entire court as quickly as he id Obara and Nym, then he brushes off Tyene. Then he hides again in his solar, only inviting people in to give them a brief performance.

Did he ever speak to Arianne during the time he was in Sunspear before Myrcella-gate started? Doesn't look like it.

I love the incredibly haunting image of him sitting in his wheelchair in the Water Gardens with the letter telling him of Oberyn's death on his lap, unopened for an entire day and night. What was that Tyrion said way back in aGoT? "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it." Doran struggles with this, I think. I does the same thing when he locks Arianne up for a month before even speaking to her. If he doesn't open it, maybe he won't have to deal with it.

Very nice analysis of Doran's character. I too love the image of him sitting, staring out over the pools and and the ocean, with the letter in his lap. Given the connection you have made about the similarity of Arianne's and Doran's arcs--they are both dealing with massive fuck-ups on their parts--I do wonder whether or not we will see Arianne deal with similar issues down the road, of denying hard truths rather than facing them. I'm not sure we've seen any of that in the two chapters so far, but I am interested in keeping that in mind as our reread continues, and into Winds. I love seeing bits of Doran in her given how wonderfully troubled their relationship is.

Holy crap, I never thought about Viserys getting an army as being part of the reason Doran might have wanted to go scheme away from Sunspear. That's just amazing (here I was thinking it was all about the gout). Also, does this mean Arianne and Doran were around each other at Sunspear for 7 years after she read the letter? I was praising her for not acting impulsively for 9 years, but to actually be around her dad, who had caused her so much hurt (unbeknownst to him) for that significant amount of time without raging at him? Or without confiding in Tyene about what was upsetting her? She is no drunkard rolling dice, that's for sure.

Seriously. Just surface-level and dull.

Yeah, it was definitely a timeline coincidence I had not noticed before. I like the idea of the Water Gardens being a place that's easier to hideaway at and control who comes in to and out from than Sunspear, and that seems to fit pretty well with what we know of Doran and Oberyn and what was going on at the time he relocated. A neat little detail!

But yeah, seems they were around each other that long. I agree with all the praise you're giving her for her restraint--she really, really, does not get enough credit for that. She was acting out in her own way, rebelling and loving up ol' Daemon, but to hold herself back from the issue for that long, when the source of the issue was right there in front of her the whole time, takes a lot of fortitude.

[Chebyshov]

I think that the line between haven and prison is a rather hazy one for Doran. He's definitely hiding there, surrounded by ultra symbolic over-ripe fruit. He doesn't want to be seen, literally or metaphorically. He gets through the awkward conversations with his nieces as fast as he possibly can, brushing them off with what essentially amounts to "yeah, I'll think about it, now go away." He covers his legs with a blanket to hide them from the children. He hides behind the curtains of the litter through the streets of Sunspear. He brushes off his daughter and his entire court as quickly as he id Obara and Nym, then he brushes off Tyene. Then he hides again in his solar, only inviting people in to give them a brief performance.

I was thinking about this earlier and forgot to respond, so why not now whilst waiting for a train!

That's a great catch about continually covering himself, not willing to avoid any kind of detection, be it his physical ailment or his political motives (this also makes me want to write an essay on how Martin uses fruit...Renly's peach, Sansa/LF and the pomegranate, Doran being pelted, etc.). But I'm also realizing: he claimed his reasoning for going to Sunspear was because he was worried about Obara inciting the locals, and yet he doesn't really talk to anyone that he can avoid while he was there. Did he know from the second he had that conversation with Obara (maybe even before, once he read the letter about Oberyn) that he was heading to Sunspear to imprison the Snakes and let Tywin know how "loyal" he was to the IT? That would kind of explain his complete dismissal of Arianne when he gets there (no, there's no indication that they talk at all in between his convo with Tyene and her Queenmaking). I'm wondering if as Arianne was prepping his welcome feast, she had a feeling what it might mean and that she'd need to enact her plot soon. Maybe that's what prompted her to write the letter to Arys?

[Dornish Vinegar]

^^ On the reread it did occur to me that Arianne probably saw Doran's imprisoning of the Sand Snakes as him laying the groundwork for Quentyn's arrival with the Golden Company, if that's what you're getting at? Arianne knows that her brother went across the Narrow Sea and she knows the Golden Company broke their contract and she knows what she thinks all that means, so her seeing Doran imprison the cousins who would have been her most powerful and loved-by-the-common-folk-in-their-own-right backers probably made her think that Doran was trying to weaken her position ahead of a very near coup.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hmm, I'm guessing that Doran and Arianne would have spoken to one another while both were at Sunspear, but that it would have been empty small talk. Which could have made Arianne not feel appreciated by Doran.. I mean, if someone only discusses the weather with you when you see him/her, do you really feel important for that person? Whereas when someone tells you about his personal life, problems, stuff you only share with someone you trust, then you'd feel appreciated. Of course this isn't a black and white situation (there are people to who it means a lot when someone talks about something as small as the weather every day, for example, but I think you guys know what I mean :) )

The bloodoranges from the Areo chapter have perhaps some symbolism to hem as well. "the bloodoranges are well past ripe" could be read as 'the time for war has arrived'. Bloodoranges ripping is out of Dorans control, as is the arrival of the war to Dorne. Doran "winched" when a bloodorange falls on the floor with a splash, and asks to be allowed to watch the children a little while longer.
Which could be read as Doran winching upon hearing a splatter (symbolizing a dead child perhaps?), after which he wants to watch the innocent and happy a little while longer (not having to think about war), until it the war finally comes knocking on his door (symbolized by Obara's visit shortly before).

Edit: a very late edit, but upon re-reading I discovered a slight mistake, and adjusted the post accordingly.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I love the incredibly haunting image of him sitting in his wheelchair in the Water Gardens with the letter telling him of Oberyn's death on his lap, unopened for an entire day and night. What was that Tyrion said way back in aGoT? "Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it." Doran struggles with this, I think. I does the same thing when he locks Arianne up for a month before even speaking to her. If he doesn't open it, maybe he won't have to deal with it.

I can relate to this. It happened to me few months ago. I had personal problems which affected my work and I simply decided to not work anymore. Even when my mailbox and phone were constantly ringing with work problems, I said "fuck everything" because I was too affected. I was supposed to say "yeah, sorry I didn't go to work, my ex was behaving like shit"? They wouldn't mind, definitely.

Here, I think Tywin is a bit wrong. It's not denying a hard truth, it's the fact that you don't know how to FACE it. It's the fact you've lost control. Doran, according to GRRM, plays to win. If you lose an improtant piece like Oberyn, you're going to lose. You need to stay away for a while until you recover control.

[Chebyshov]

^^ On the reread it did occur to me that Arianne probably saw Doran's imprisoning of the Sand Snakes as him laying the groundwork for Quentyn's arrival with the Golden Company, if that's what you're getting at? Arianne knows that her brother went across the Narrow Sea and she knows the Golden Company broke their contract and she knows what she thinks all that means, so her seeing Doran imprison the cousins who would have been her most powerful and loved-by-the-common-folk-in-their-own-right backers probably made her think that Doran was trying to weaken her position ahead of a very near coup.

I forget what I was getting at. I think it was about the fact that there's something chilling about Doran saying he must return to Sunspear, but his sole reason as to lock up the Sand Snakes and further continue his act as being loyal to the IT. I was splitting a hair that didn't need to be split, but I do think it's interesting that his method to pacify his subjects wasn't to interact with them (pulling the curtains, hiding himself), but to lock up the titular leaders of those who would rebel.

That said, it's even more interesting that he didn't lock up Arianne from the get-go. She and Tyene were clearly on the same page (Arianne directing Doran to Tyene, and then later enacting her same plot), which I'm sure Doran knew. Also, Arianne is well-loved and had the ability to warmonger and inflame passions in Sunspear just as much as the Snakes. I think Doran's allowing Arianne to act might be further evidence for JonCon's Red Beard's "no one told" theory. He needed Arianne to go for it so he could see who was on her side. And he knew that locking up the Snakes would force her hand into doing something.

Another point, knowing now that Arianne will succeed him one day, I doubt Doran wanted to lock her up unless he had no choice; the Lords of Dorne are incredibly loyal to him, and he wouldn't want to sway anyone away from her (unless she openly committed treason, say).

Doran's lucky it was just Arianne and 6 others who acted against him. Locking up the Snakes was risking a major uprising.

[SeanF]

I forget what I was getting at. I think it was about the fact that there's something chilling about Doran saying he must return to Sunspear, but his sole reason as to lock up the Sand Snakes and further continue his act as being loyal to the IT. I was splitting a hair that didn't need to be split, but I do think it's interesting that his method to pacify his subjects wasn't to interact with them (pulling the curtains, hiding himself), but to lock up the titular leaders of those who would rebel.

That said, it's even more interesting that he didn't lock up Arianne from the get-go. She and Tyene were clearly on the same page (Arianne directing Doran to Tyene, and then later enacting her same plot), which I'm sure Doran knew. Also, Arianne is well-loved and had the ability to warmonger and inflame passions in Sunspear just as much as the Snakes. I think Doran's allowing Arianne to act might be further evidence for

JonCon's Red Beard's "no one told" theory. He needed Arianne to go for it so he could see who was on her side. And he knew that locking up the Snakes would force her hand into doing something.

Another point, knowing now that Arianne will succeed him one day, I doubt Doran wanted to lock her up unless he had no choice; the Lords of Dorne are incredibly loyal to him, and he wouldn't want to sway anyone away from her (unless she openly committed treason, say).

Doran's lucky it was just Arianne and 6 others who acted against him. Locking up the Snakes was risking a

major uprising.

Arianne, Tyene, and Nymeria seem to have a kind of "rock star" quality among the Dornish. The Smallfolk really do adore them (and Oberyn). I think Doran probably did come close to provoking if not a full-scale rebellion (which would need support from the nobility) certainly a major riot.

[Dornish Vinegar]

I forget what I was getting at. I think it was about the fact that there's something chilling about Doran saying he must return to Sunspear, but his sole reason as to lock up the Sand Snakes and further continue his act as being loyal to the IT. I was splitting a hair that didn't need to be split, but I do think it's interesting that his method to pacify his subjects wasn't to interact with them (pulling the curtains, hiding himself), but to lock up the titular leaders of those who would rebel.

That said, it's even more interesting that he didn't lock up Arianne from the get-go. She and Tyene were clearly on the same page (Arianne directing Doran to Tyene, and then later enacting her same plot), which I'm sure Doran knew. Also, Arianne is well-loved and had the ability to warmonger and inflame passions in Sunspear just as much as the Snakes. I think Doran's allowing Arianne to act might be further evidence for JonCon's Red Beard's "no one told" theory. He needed Arianne to go for it so he could see who was on her side. And he knew that locking up the Snakes would force her hand into doing something.

Another point, knowing now that Arianne will succeed him one day, I doubt Doran wanted to lock her up unless he had no choice; the Lords of Dorne are incredibly loyal to him, and he wouldn't want to sway anyone away from her (unless she openly committed treason, say).

Doran's lucky it was just Arianne and 6 others who acted against him. Locking up the Snakes was risking a major uprising.

Bah, we love splitting hairs though :cheers:

I agree with everything. Regarding Doran, it makes you wonder what would have happened if Obara had never visited him in the Water Gardens. He must have some kind of channel that he gets information on Sunspear from, but would he have known it was as serious as it was if he hadn't seen Obara's anger himself? It makes one wonder about this castellan Manfrey and his capacities. Since he's such a non-character, and since the commonfolk like Arianne so much, maybe we give her less credit than she deserves in the rulership in Sunspear. Her official title of Dorne's Party Planner may have been her job description, but I wouldn't be surprised if she had her hands in other things as well (or at least tried to).

I can relate to this. It happened to me few months ago. I had personal problems which affected my work and I simply decided to not work anymore. Even when my mailbox and phone were constantly ringing with work problems, I said "fuck everything" because I was too affected. I was supposed to say "yeah, sorry I didn't go to work, my ex was behaving like shit"? They wouldn't mind, definitely.

Here, I think Tywin is a bit wrong. It's not denying a hard truth, it's the fact that you don't know how to FACE it. It's the fact you've lost control. Doran, according to GRRM, plays to win. If you lose an improtant piece like Oberyn, you're going to lose. You need to stay away for a while until you recover control.

^^Realtalk. The thing I like about Doran and Arianne is that they're both such real people. Doran with his years of indecision and dawdling and second-guessing, conflicted between pure anger (do not doubt for a moment that it is not there just as much as it was for Oberyn) and a sense of responsibility to his surviving family and the people he rules, Arianne with her deep-seated insecurities about her position in her family and with her father. I can understand their psyches and where they are coming from, their motivations and their frustrations and their fears and their very human flaws. It's difficult to articulate but as I've said before, they're much more human than other characters in the series, imo.

Hmm, I'm guessing that Doran and Arianne would have spoken to one another while both were at Sunspear, but that it would have been empty small talk. Which could have made Arianne not feel appreciated by Doran.. I mean, if someone only discusses the weather with you when you see him/her, do you really feel important for that person? Whereas when someone tells you about his personal life, problems, stuff you only share with someone you trust, then you'd feel appreciated. Of course this isn't a black and white situation (there are people to who it means a lot when someone talks about something as small as the weather every day, for example, but I think you guys know what I mean :) )

The bloodoranges from the Areo chapter have perhaps some symbolism to hem as well. "the bloodoranges are well past ripe" could be read as 'the time for war has arrived'. Bloodoranges ripping is out of Dorans control, as is the arrival of the war to Dorne. Doran "winched" when a bloodorange falls on the floor with a splash, and asks to be allowed to watch the children a little while longer.

Which could be read as Doran winching upon hearing a splatter (symbolizing a dead child perhaps?), after which he wants to watch the innocent and happy a little while longer (not having to think about war), until it the war finally comes knocking on his door (symbolized by Obara's arrival).

Yeah, the blood oranges are definitely very heavy with symbolism too. Doran wincing at the one that falls and splatter is a GREAT catch. There's a lot there in that moment. I've heard people interpret the overripe oranges as a representation of Doran's sitting on his hands for too long and having missed his chance (whatever chance that would have been), but I like your interpretation too. Things don't have to be symbolic of only one thing!

[Hrafntýr]

I agree with everything. Regarding Doran, it makes you wonder what would have happened if Obara had never visited him in the Water Gardens. He must have some kind of channel that he gets information on Sunspear from, but would he have known it was as serious as it was if he hadn't seen Obara's anger himself? It makes one wonder about this castellan Manfrey and his capacities. Since he's such a non-character, and since the commonfolk like Arianne so much, maybe we give her less credit than she deserves in the rulership in Sunspear. Her official title of Dorne's Party Planner may have been her job description, but I wouldn't be surprised if she had her hands in other things as well (or at least tried to).

<snip>

I tend to think, based upon what we've seen of her knowledge and skills, that Arienne has been educated far more broadly than in the area of feasts and follies. I think that she's latched on to that official role as emblematic of how she (thinks she) has been written out of the real governance of Dorne, kind of like as a young person we might say or think of our parents, "You just want me to be XXX!!" (usually something that we disvalue), while refusing to acknowledge all the skills and abilities and knowledge that our parents have inculcated in us all along. I'm really not sure any more, especially reading all these excellent analyses of Doran's and Arienne's character and interactions, that Doran hasn't groomed her for rule all along, even "knowing" that she was to become Queen of Westeros. Of course, we don't have a lot of information, either about her education/training or that of comparable young heirs, so it's kind of hard to know if Doran really was remiss in his education of Arienne, or if the "feast and follies" is for her simply iconic of her perceived marginalization.

[Chebyshov]

I tend to think, based upon what we've seen of her knowledge and skills, that Arienne has been educated far more broadly than in the area of feasts and follies. I think that she's latched on to that official role as emblematic of how she (thinks she) has been written out of the real governance of Dorne, kind of like as a young person we might say or think of our parents, "You just want me to be XXX!!" (usually something that we disvalue), while refusing to acknowledge all the skills and abilities and knowledge that our parents have inculcated in us all along. I'm really not sure any more, especially reading all these excellent analyses of Doran's and Arienne's character and interactions, that Doran hasn't groomed her for rule all along, even "knowing" that she was to become Queen of Westeros. Of course, we don't have a lot of information, either about her education/training or that of comparable young heirs, so it's kind of hard to know if Doran really was remiss in his education of Arienne, or if the "feast and follies" is for her simply iconic of her perceived marginalization.

He could have at least told Maester Myles to give her some of the letters to deal with or something though, lol. Even if he was grooming her for rule more than she'll admit (or at least would admit at the time of these two chapters), it is odd that her assigned duty is entertainment. Maybe Doran thought she'd be damn good at it, or maybe he just didn't want the Sand Snakes (likely Tyene) to be helping her count coins.

[Julia Martell]

It's damn hard not to start talking about later chapters isn't it?

I just really feel the need to emphasis again that Doran doesn't give Arianne enough credit (and neither do most readers). She CAN keep secrets and she DOES know stuff. No one does about her disinheritance insecurity but Arys, and she only told him because she had to. Not even her BFF Tyene, who she apparently tells everything to according to Doran, seems to not know about it. Although his chain of Tyene to Fowler Twins is also probably an exaggeration. I'm guessing we'll talk net week about how clueless all her fellow conspirators are.

And also, let's not be too dismissive of how much work it is to plan huge feasts and run a household of hundreds. I can barely keep my bathrooms clean.

[SeanF]

It's damn hard not to start talking about later chapters isn't it?

I just really feel the need to emphasis again that Doran doesn't give Arianne enough credit (and neither do most readers). She CAN keep secrets and she DOES know stuff. No one does about her disinheritance insecurity but Arys, and she only told him because she had to. Not even her BFF Tyene, who she apparently tells everything to according to Doran, seems to not know about it. Although his chain of Tyene to Fowler Twins is also probably an exaggeration. I'm guessing we'll talk net week about how clueless all her fellow conspirators are.

And also, let's not be too dismissive of how much work it is to plan huge feasts and run a household of hundreds. I can barely keep my bathrooms clean.

Really, though, it should be the job of a Steward or Lord Chamberlain to do that. If those are the only tasks

that Arianne gets given, she's entitled to be annoyed.

The Martells strike me as being Princes and Princesses who actually work, rather than leaving everything to their ministers, while they enjoy themselves. Arianne, as heir, ought to be sitting in on council meetings, trying cases, drafting laws etc. Perhaps, she has shown no interest in these things, or no aptitude for them. But, Doran should be insisting. Or, if he really were to sincerely conclude that she was too incompetent to handle such matters, then he should formally disinherit her.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It's damn hard not to start talking about later chapters isn't it?

Haha, perhaps that means it is starting to become time for the next chapter? Though talking about other chapters other than the one(s) analysed that week can never completely be avoided.

We're just an enthusiastic group :D

[Chebyshov]

It's damn hard not to start talking about later chapters isn't it?

Well hopefully that will be remedied soon. Right, DV :wideeyed:?

The problem is that while we can see Arianne's ability to think politically, plan ahead, and keep secrets, it's all in relation to her false assumptions, about which Doran was completely blindsided. So it's not like he could place value on it. It just makes their whole dynamic so heartbreaking.

[Dornish Vinegar]

Haha, perhaps that means it is starting to become time for the next chapter? Though talking about other chapters other than the one(s) analysed that week can never completely be avoided.

We're just an enthusiastic group :D

Well hopefully that will be remedied soon. Right, DV :wideeyed:?

The problem is that while we can see Arianne's ability to think politically, plan ahead, and keep secrets, it's all in relation to her false assumptions, about which Doran was completely blindsided. So it's not like he could place value on it. It just makes their whole dynamic so heartbreaking.

Our Queenmaker will drop on Tuesday yall, hold tight! :D

[Julia Martell]

Our Queenmaker will drop on Tuesday yall, hold tight! :D

I think we're all going to know how GRRM feels by the end of this.

And also, is it alright that I already have a thousand words for the summary of half a chapter? And I'm not even done, yet.

[Dornish Vinegar]

I think we're all going to know how GRRM feels by the end of this.

And also, is it alright that I already have a thousand words for the summary of half a chapter? And I'm not even done, yet.

Oh snap that's gonna be amazing

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Our Queenmaker will drop on Tuesday yall, hold tight! :D

Yay!!

I think we're all going to know how GRRM feels by the end of this.

And also, is it alright that I already have a thousand words for the summary of half a chapter? And I'm not even done, yet.

I have started writing as well, and I have a detailed summary, and an analysis that is trice as long as that summary... O_o and I'm not even done..

And I've passed the maximum number of quote boxes quite a while ago..

[Julia Martell]

Yay!!

I have started writing as well, and I have a detailed summary, and an analysis that is trice as long as that summary... O_o and I'm not even done..

I'm getting the impression that that's not a problem here.

We might be able to publish a book of essays when all is said and done.